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#498314 - 11/02/18 08:08 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
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Back to LMB on pellets. How big as a documented size have any owners grown pellet raised LMB? Also has anyone verified how long LMB will live when feeding LMB primarily pellets or the LMB nuggets? We as a group should be documenting this information.
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#498315 - 11/02/18 08:39 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Centrarchid Offline
Fingerling

Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 162
Loc: .
A female (Big Bertha) acquired as two pounder and feed trained after acquisition was pushing 10 lbs seven years later. She was put on forage every fall, overwintered in pond, and kept in large tank during summers after breeding for 4 of those years. Last three she was in a reservoir where she held court near an inlet that served as a feeding station. Most of her intake when given a choice was feed.

Last summer of life she suffered what looked like a broken back where weight was shed and she disappeared around time of fall turnover.

She was not pushed in terms of the amount of feed provided.

BG pushed do not do well long-term even though growth rapid and quality size easily reached. Death of those not always nutrition related; investment in repro chews them up.

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#498317 - 11/03/18 12:25 AM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Centrarchid]
anthropic Offline


Registered: 05/03/14
Posts: 1456
Loc: East Texas, USA
Originally Posted By: Centrarchid
A female (Big Bertha) acquired as two pounder and feed trained after acquisition was pushing 10 lbs seven years later. She was put on forage every fall, overwintered in pond, and kept in large tank during summers after breeding for 4 of those years. Last three she was in a reservoir where she held court near an inlet that served as a feeding station. Most of her intake when given a choice was feed.

Last summer of life she suffered what looked like a broken back where weight was shed and she disappeared around time of fall turnover.

She was not pushed in terms of the amount of feed provided.

BG pushed do not do well long-term even though growth rapid and quality size easily reached. Death of those not always nutrition related; investment in repro chews them up.


What about Richmond Mill Lake? Seems they push BG pretty hard and have had enormous (literally & figuratively) success.
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8 acre E Texas, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12 inch N LMB & 1k GSH 10/17. 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18

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#498321 - 11/03/18 07:17 AM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: anthropic]
Centrarchid Offline
Fingerling

Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 162
Loc: .
Originally Posted By: anthropic
Originally Posted By: Centrarchid
A female (Big Bertha) acquired as two pounder and feed trained after acquisition was pushing 10 lbs seven years later. She was put on forage every fall, overwintered in pond, and kept in large tank during summers after breeding for 4 of those years. Last three she was in a reservoir where she held court near an inlet that served as a feeding station. Most of her intake when given a choice was feed.

Last summer of life she suffered what looked like a broken back where weight was shed and she disappeared around time of fall turnover.

She was not pushed in terms of the amount of feed provided.

BG pushed do not do well long-term even though growth rapid and quality size easily reached. Death of those not always nutrition related; investment in repro chews them up.


What about Richmond Mill Lake? Seems they push BG pretty hard and have had enormous (literally & figuratively) success.



I implied nothing about a lack of success for me or anyone else. Concern I have is in respect to longevity of the fast growing fish as I keep them. They do not live as long as those reaching similar large size on natural forages.

We need to clarify points, otherwise this diversion from original discussion is folly.

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#498327 - 11/03/18 03:36 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Bill Cody Offline
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Are there other forum members that have pictures or documentation for how big largemouth bass will get when fed primarily pellets?
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#498336 - 11/03/18 11:00 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Centrarchid]
anthropic Offline


Registered: 05/03/14
Posts: 1456
Loc: East Texas, USA
Originally Posted By: Centrarchid
Originally Posted By: anthropic
Originally Posted By: Centrarchid
A female (Big Bertha) acquired as two pounder and feed trained after acquisition was pushing 10 lbs seven years later. She was put on forage every fall, overwintered in pond, and kept in large tank during summers after breeding for 4 of those years. Last three she was in a reservoir where she held court near an inlet that served as a feeding station. Most of her intake when given a choice was feed.

Last summer of life she suffered what looked like a broken back where weight was shed and she disappeared around time of fall turnover.

She was not pushed in terms of the amount of feed provided.

BG pushed do not do well long-term even though growth rapid and quality size easily reached. Death of those not always nutrition related; investment in repro chews them up.


What about Richmond Mill Lake? Seems they push BG pretty hard and have had enormous (literally & figuratively) success.



I implied nothing about a lack of success for me or anyone else. Concern I have is in respect to longevity of the fast growing fish as I keep them. They do not live as long as those reaching similar large size on natural forages.

We need to clarify points, otherwise this diversion from original discussion is folly.


Your observation about shortened lifespans of artificially fed BG is important, in my view. There's been quite a bit of discussion here about the topic, including what types of feed are most likely to cause issues such as fatty liver. And, of course, many folks here feed their fish, LMB and BG, including me.
_________________________
8 acre E Texas, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12 inch N LMB & 1k GSH 10/17. 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18

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#498337 - 11/03/18 11:37 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: anthropic]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5261
Loc: SE Kansas
Another question would be, do fatty BG cause fatty LMB?

Fed BG makes fatty BG. Fed LMB makes fatty LMB. But do fatty fed BG eaten by LMB that are not fed cause fatty LMB?

In other words, does feeding the BG pass on bad things up the food chain?
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#498341 - 11/04/18 12:44 AM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
anthropic Offline


Registered: 05/03/14
Posts: 1456
Loc: East Texas, USA
John, with humans it's been pretty well demonstrated that, contrary to "expert" government advice, eating natural fat does not make you fat. Sugar, processed fats such as corn oil, and simple carbs are the culprits.

If this holds with fish, perhaps fat prey fish don't make predators fat. It would be interesting research!


Edited by anthropic (11/04/18 02:09 AM)
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8 acre E Texas, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12 inch N LMB & 1k GSH 10/17. 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18

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#498346 - 11/04/18 06:30 AM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: anthropic]
Centrarchid Offline
Fingerling

Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 162
Loc: .
Originally Posted By: anthropic
John, with humans it's been pretty well demonstrated that, contrary to "expert" government advice, eating natural fat does not make you fat. Sugar, processed fats such as corn oil, and simple carbs are the culprits.

If this holds with fish, perhaps fat prey fish don't make predators fat. It would be interesting research!


Where does the government say eating natural food makes you fat? I am not aware such and need to be if it exists.

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#498371 - 11/05/18 10:34 AM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: snrub]
ewest Offline
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Originally Posted By: snrub
Another question would be, do fatty BG cause fatty LMB?

Fed BG makes fatty BG. Fed LMB makes fatty LMB. But do fatty fed BG eaten by LMB that are not fed cause fatty LMB?

In other words, does feeding the BG pass on bad things up the food chain?


Good question and I don't know the answer. I do have a WAG. I guess that the LMB eating fed BG will convert the BG to what a LMB needs and that the source of the BG fat will be irrelevant. I could easily be wrong on this.

Based on my reading natural sources of food lead to a healthier fish population. When combined with supplemental feeding (low % of total nutrition) you get the best of both . I have not seen any info indicating that for long term health purposes that completely feed dependent fish is the better course.


Edited by ewest (11/05/18 10:39 AM)
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#498372 - 11/05/18 10:45 AM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: ewest]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5261
Loc: SE Kansas
That would be my best guess also Eric.

I just brouht it up because it seemed to be the next logical question in the nutrient equasion discussion.


Edited by snrub (11/05/18 10:46 AM)
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#498375 - 11/05/18 10:52 AM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5261
Loc: SE Kansas
Another bottom line question that I entertained is "Does a person want a 12# 7 year old bass, or a 7# 12 year old bass?" .

And the answer could be different for different people with different goals.

For a trophy hunter, the shortened life might be worth it. For a public lake manager, having a diverse "good fishing" population (with longer life) might be a more realistic goal.


Edited by snrub (11/05/18 10:53 AM)
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#498380 - 11/05/18 11:33 AM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: ewest]
jpsdad Offline


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 197
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: ewest
Originally Posted By: snrub
Another question would be, do fatty BG cause fatty LMB?

Fed BG makes fatty BG. Fed LMB makes fatty LMB. But do fatty fed BG eaten by LMB that are not fed cause fatty LMB?

In other words, does feeding the BG pass on bad things up the food chain?


Good question and I don't know the answer. I do have a WAG. I guess that the LMB eating fed BG will convert the BG to what a LMB needs and that the source of the BG fat will be irrelevant. I could easily be wrong on this.

Based on my reading natural sources of food lead to a healthier fish population. When combined with supplemental feeding (low % of total nutrition) you get the best of both . I have not seen any info indicating that for long term health purposes that completely feed dependent fish is the better course.


It is well known that differing foods fed cladocerans result in forage of differing quality for raising fish fry. The quality of tilapia as food for humans declines the more dependent the fish were on a prepared diet where the most healthy fish in terms of omega 3's were raised on green water.

To be sure, grain feeding forage doesn't produce a diet as healthy for LMB as those raised on natural forages. Even so, the extent it may adversely affect the health of LMB would be rather muted in the light of the feeding rates that most people feed at. In other words, the forage doesn't depend to a great extent on feed.

I do think however that LMB that are feed trained are much more dependent on feed than BG which need no training.

Originally Posted By: ewest


When combined with supplemental feeding (low % of total nutrition) you get the best of both .


I am sorry but this hardly makes sense to me smile


Edited by jpsdad (11/05/18 11:45 AM)

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#498381 - 11/05/18 11:36 AM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: snrub]
jpsdad Offline


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 197
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: snrub
Another bottom line question that I entertained is "Does a person want a 12# 7 year old bass, or a 7# 12 year old bass?" .



There are a lot of folks who would gladly settle for either!

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#498412 - 11/05/18 09:31 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: jpsdad]
ewest Offline
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Registered: 03/08/05
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Originally Posted By: jpsdad
.

Originally Posted By: ewest


When combined with supplemental feeding (low % of total nutrition) you get the best of both .


I am sorry but this hardly makes sense to me smile


The biggest inhibitor to good fish growth and health is insufficient food. This comes up over and over and over in studies. IMO the best conditioned fish are those with a mostly natural diet but with a small (low %)amount of supplemental feeding to insure enough nutrition. Hope this helps.
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#498420 - 11/06/18 02:17 AM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Centrarchid]
anthropic Offline


Registered: 05/03/14
Posts: 1456
Loc: East Texas, USA
Originally Posted By: Centrarchid
Originally Posted By: anthropic
John, with humans it's been pretty well demonstrated that, contrary to "expert" government advice, eating natural fat does not make you fat. Sugar, processed fats such as corn oil, and simple carbs are the culprits.

If this holds with fish, perhaps fat prey fish don't make predators fat. It would be interesting research!


Where does the government say eating natural food makes you fat? I am not aware such and need to be if it exists.


Unfortunately for public health, in the 1960s/70s the US government decided that dietary fats caused obesity and heart disease. Their recommendation was to eat lots of grains (pasta, bread, etc) and minimize fatty food such as butter, whole milk, beef, etc. Skim milk, margarine instead of butter were supposedly better alternatives.

We now know that a diet high in natural fats does not increase obesity & heart disease. Olive oil, lard, salmon, milk fat: consumption usually correlates with lower mortality, not higher.

I don't eat "low fat" foods because typically the missing flavorful fat is replaced by flavorful sugars, often corn syrup. Sugars spike insulin, which often leads to diabetes & obesity. Simple carbs like flour do the same.


Edited by anthropic (11/06/18 02:22 AM)
_________________________
8 acre E Texas, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12 inch N LMB & 1k GSH 10/17. 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18

There are only 10 types of people; those who understand binary and those who don't




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#498421 - 11/06/18 04:34 AM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Centrarchid Offline
Fingerling

Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 162
Loc: .
For crying out loud, that is not recent. Therefore not accurate portrait of what the recommendations are.

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#498422 - 11/06/18 08:01 AM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
NEDOC Offline
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Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 811
Loc: SC Nebraska
I think it's an accurate description of what many still believe, largely because of the dietary recommendations from the 60s thru the 90s. You wouldn't believe how many people think I'm crazy when I recommend diets high in fats and low in carbs.
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#498426 - 11/06/18 09:42 AM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: ewest]
jpsdad Offline


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 197
Loc: Texas
I was nodding my head at everything ... until you closed with this.

Originally Posted By: ewest

. . . but with a small (low %)amount of supplemental feeding to insure enough nutrition.


This would seem to imply that fish can't get enough nutrition without supplemental feeding.. . a notion I would certainly disagree with and that is completely unsupported by science. For one thing one can certainly imagine scenarios where the amount of supplemental feeding you might recommend is insufficient to ensure enough nutrition. Under such a scenario, we can all agree that it isn't the feed's fault. There's just too many fish.

If this is true when artificial feeds are insufficient then it is equally true when natural foods are insufficient.

It has been long known that the ultimate size of fish is independent of fertility. A pond which supports 150 lbs/acre standing weights can produce fish of equal size to a pond that supports 500 lbs/acre standing weight. I know you know this Eric but based on some things I've seen written here, some certainly don't.

One should feed to have more fish ... not bigger fish. If one wants bigger fish the results of feeding will only meet that goal in the short term.



Edited by jpsdad (11/06/18 10:03 AM)

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#498427 - 11/06/18 09:55 AM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2494
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
In response to Jim's question or statement where the feed trained had faster growth but lacked the color or that lateral line being more visible. At my pond, I added feed trained lmb last June and since then they have been hand feed Aquamax LMB 5 to 6 days per week. I saw my feed trained are colored or lack of color as seen in his photo where he compared the lmb coloring. So, I have been cutting back on the feed due to me not being available everyday to feed them. Question is, will these 2 to 3 lb, 15" to 17" lmb revert back to a more natural look when feed is cut back and will the lmb adapt to eating Bg, Res, Tp and Tfs? And with lots of available natural forage, will I continue to see good growth with the lmb if the feed is cut back? Have they adjusted to eating more forage? They have been in the pond for 6 months and I was hoping they have adjusted to their new environment by now and have learned how to eat natural forage.


Edited by TGW1 (11/06/18 10:00 AM)
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Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
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#498428 - 11/06/18 10:11 AM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: TGW1]
jpsdad Offline


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 197
Loc: Texas
Eric mentions research, some positive ... others more negative, on the ability of feed trained LMB to transition to a life without feed. Often research is not available without paying access to it. If not copyright protected or if available from free sources, perhaps Eric can point us to online sources of this research.

Bump ...

I think the timing of cutting the feed couldn't be better. The TP will be easier for your FT LMB to catch over then next 10 weeks as they start the process of dying. Also through winter the LMB will be a little more active than BG.


Edited by jpsdad (11/06/18 12:49 PM)

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#498429 - 11/06/18 10:19 AM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: jpsdad]
anthropic Offline


Registered: 05/03/14
Posts: 1456
Loc: East Texas, USA
The gold standard, I think, is feed trained LMB which have also learned to eat their natural prey. My understanding is that some fishmongers have trained their LMB that way before selling.
_________________________
8 acre E Texas, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12 inch N LMB & 1k GSH 10/17. 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18

There are only 10 types of people; those who understand binary and those who don't




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#498462 - 11/07/18 07:23 AM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2494
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
These FT lmb have an outstanding RW most likely from feeding the Aquamax so I guess I will monitor and see what happens as I reduce the amount of feed. Either that or get them to feed at a different time of day, so I might be able to continue the daily feeding. Right now if I feed at a different time from what they are used to, I get little or no fish feeding.
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

Tracy

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#498527 - 11/08/18 04:18 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
ewest Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19590
Loc: Miss.
With temps falling LMB should not eat as much.
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#498528 - 11/08/18 04:23 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
ewest Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19590
Loc: Miss.
Here is some info. I will find some more.


Pellet-reared Largemouth Bass Competitive Ability at Various Levels of Exposure to Live Forage
Kyle T. Rachels, Aquaculture/Fisheries Center, University of Arkansas at Pine Bluff, 1200 N. University, Mail Slot 4912, Pine Bluff, AR 71601
Gordon R. Taylor, Aquaculture/Fisheries Center, University of Arkansas at Pine Bluff, 1200 N. University, Mail Slot 4912, Pine Bluff,
AR 71601
Brandon M. Baumhoer, Aquaculture/Fisheries Center, University of Arkansas at Pine Bluff, 1200 N. University, Mail Slot 4912, Pine Bluff,
AR 71601
Sagar Shrestha, Aquaculture/Fisheries Center, University of Arkansas at Pine Bluff, 1200 N. University, Mail Slot 4912, Pine Bluff, AR 71601
Steve E. Lochmann, Aquaculture/Fisheries Center, University of Arkansas at Pine Bluff, 1200 N. University, Mail Slot 4912, Pine Bluff,
AR 71601
Abstract: We investigated the effects of exposing pellet-reared, advanced-fingerling largemouth bass (Micropterus salmoides) to live forage on the ability
of bass to capture live forage (competitive ability). Wild and pellet-reared largemouth bass were paired in competitive trials in 75-L aquaria and offered
live fathead minnows (Pimephales promelas). Prior to competitive trials, pellet-reared largemouth bass were placed into trial groups and fed fathead
minnows daily for 0, 2, 4, 8, and 16 days among groups. Pellet-reared largemouth bass without exposure to live forage captured the fathead minnow in
9% of competitive events against wild fish and captured significantly fewer fathead minnows than pellet-reared largemouth bass with exposure to live
forage (logistic regression; P < 0.05). Pellet-reared largemouth bass with exposure to live forage before competitions were similar to wild largemouth
bass in competitive ability. Regression analysis predicted pellet-reared largemouth bass with nine days of prestocking live forage exposure would have a
similar ability to compete for food as wild largemouth bass. Providing pellet-reared largemouth bass with live forage for nine days before stocking may
provide the benefits of both pellet and live-forage rearing.

Our data revealed substantial differences in competitive ability
between wild and hatchery largemouth bass reared exclusively on
pellets. Wild fish captured the minnow in 10 of the 11 pairwise
comparisons. These results illuminate a mechanism that potentially
contributes to the high mortality observed in stocking programs
conducted with pellet-reared largemouth bass (e.g., Heidinger and
Brooks 2002, Porak et al. 2002, Janney 2006, Thomas and Dockendorf
2009). Even if pellet-reared fish are able to learn to identify
natural food items post-stocking, they may continue to be outcompeted
by wild fish. Individuals that lose a competition have a
lower probability of winning future competitions than individuals
that have established dominance or individuals without previous
competition experience (Beacham and Newman 1987). Tiira et al.
(2009) found individuals that lost initial competitions grew less
over 8 mo than the individuals that won competitions. They also
found relative dominance was stable over long periods, with initial
competition winners maintaining dominance over losers after 8
mo. If food is limiting and pellet-reared largemouth bass are poor
competitors, as demonstrated in this study, they might contribute
little to the population in which they are stocked.


Edited by ewest (11/08/18 04:25 PM)
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