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#489552 - 05/04/18 05:49 PM Re: New 1/4 acre pond [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 532
Loc: Louisiana
It's not FA. Looks more like a bright green scum. No fibrous content at all. I found an algaecide at the feed store and just finished spraying where it's accumulated on the north bank. Made sure to not over spray so I didn't stress what fish I have.

When this stuff first comes to the surface it resembles an oil slick then turns green after a while. Did the same thing in a jar test. It's just splotchy on the surface but you can see it everywhere.

I really need to get an aerator system to keep the water well mixed....I think.
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#489553 - 05/04/18 05:57 PM Re: New 1/4 acre pond [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 532
Loc: Louisiana
Guess I got that backwards. Just walked the pond after about an hour of spraying. The green is gone and now it's just that oil sheen, so I guess what I'm seeing out in the middle is the stuff that's already died on its own... go figure.
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#489574 - 05/05/18 03:23 PM Re: New 1/4 acre pond [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 532
Loc: Louisiana
Today I picked up a pool test kit. Gathered a sample from about 18 inches at pond side using my coffee mug on a stick, making sure to try to flush it around a bit to get water from that depth. The litmus stick shows ph at 7.2 at 30 seconds, alkalinity measures 40ppm read at 40 seconds and hardness was 0 after 50 seconds. Is that even possible??!!!!??

We got a little rain this morning, probably not more than 1/2 inch, if that. It was enough to knock down what dead algae was still floating on top and my visibility is still 29 inches. Skies are partly cloudy now, with intermitent strong sunlight. Reading was taken at 2pm.
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#489575 - 05/05/18 03:23 PM Re: New 1/4 acre pond [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 532
Loc: Louisiana
Today I picked up a pool test kit. Gathered a sample from about 18 inches at pond side using my coffee mug on a stick, making sure to try to flush it around a bit to get water from that depth. The litmus stick shows ph at 7.2 at 30 seconds, alkalinity measures 40ppm read at 40 seconds and hardness was 0 after 50 seconds. Is that even possible??!!!!??

We got a little rain this morning, probably not more than 1/2 inch, if that. It was enough to knock down what dead algae was still floating on top and my visibility is still 29 inches. Skies are partly cloudy now, with intermitent strong sunlight. Reading was taken at 2pm.
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#489601 - 05/06/18 08:14 AM Re: New 1/4 acre pond [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 532
Loc: Louisiana
Took another reading this morning. PH dropped to below 6. ALK was 0, as was hardness. I expected the drop in PH, but the drop in ALK suggests I probably need some lime. Shouldn't it be staying relatively constant?
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#489636 - 05/06/18 10:27 PM Re: New 1/4 acre pond [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 532
Loc: Louisiana
I've found both pulverized yard lime (Timberline Soil Doctor) as well as a granulated lime at the local Lowes for prices much more tolerable for bag lime than getting it from my neighborhood feed store. Being that this pond is only 1/4 acre surface, I'm thinking 10-12 bags of the powdered lime, applied directly to the surface water, as well as a couple bags of the pelletized lime, poured into the inflow as well as spread over my lawn where rain would let it filter into the pond over time. My lawn needs help too, as this area is all sand/clay that came out of the pond. My thinking is the powdered will give me the more immediate reaction I need, while the granulated will give me a more time released influx with runoff.

Does this sound like a plan that would work? I dont think I need a ton of lime, but to get bulk, I'll have to get a lot more than that. Bag lime is really my only option.
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#492929 - 06/28/18 10:13 PM Re: New 1/4 acre pond [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 532
Loc: Louisiana
I haven't done much with the pond lately. Last thing was to put some sheetrock pieces in baskets to try to bring up my hardness. I now realize thats going to take a long time with no more than I'm putting out at one time. Most of the first batch is completely disolved now so its time for a fresh batch. My Alk is better since liming and the PH is staying relatively stable, but my hardness is still crap.

All this brings me to my next question in pond chemistry....that being in regard to visibilty in the heat of the summer. After the last tropical event a couple weeks ago, the water stayed clear even with almost 9 inches of rain and I'm seeing the visibility get deeper by the day. I'm guessing its close to 4' now, maybe more. I need to measure it to be sure. I've got some decent plant growth starting to take hold around the edge and have noticed what looks like green algae starting to thinly cover some of the shallows (probably FA) but the water itself just keeps getting clearer. Surface is probably 3/4 covered by that slimy scum looking stuff. Color is still dark greenish brown and surface temps are in the mid 90s by mid day. Is this clarity normal for this time of year or should I be concerned?
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#493390 - 07/07/18 09:40 AM Re: New 1/4 acre pond [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 532
Loc: Louisiana
Took some readings this morning on the pond and haven't seen any changes in AK or HARDNESS. 40/0 respectively. PH this morning was 7.8, and morning readings seem to be slowly getting higher as time passes. I added 500# of ag lime several weeks ago and after a couple of weeks these are the AK/HARDNESS readings I got as well, so it looks like I definitely need more lime, so the plan is to add another 500# soon. The sheetrock experiment isn't giving me any possitive results with hardness so gypsum may need to be included to boost the hardness.

1)How do I determine how much gypsum I need to include (if any), and what should my hardness target be for best results in managing PH? Not concerned about clearing the water as my color and visibility are, IMO, very good for this time of year, (olive green and 28").
2)Is this the route I should be persuing, or is there another path to increasing hardness I've not discovered?
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#493391 - 07/07/18 10:18 AM Re: New 1/4 acre pond [Re: Mike Whatley]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5261
Loc: SE Kansas
I learned something about sheetrock the other day. Having some new scraps from my daughters house build thought I would dump some on the top of a newly created rock pile I had established in 6 feet lf water.

With the telehandler I extended out a pile of sheetrock to the rock pile location 25 feet from the bank and dumped it over it. Despite the word "rock" included in the word "sheetrock", sheetrock acts nothing like rocks do in water. It floats.

To my chagrin I watched the floatilla of sheet rock be blown by the wind over to my dock, float under it, and deposit itself on the north shore of the pond.


So I got to pick the sheetrock up off the bank.

I left a few pieces in just to see how long it took to waterlog and sink. Been about a week. Still floating. Fish love it. Wife was sympathetic but was still not impressed with the looks of floating sheetrock blown around by the wind floating on the pond.

Of course I did not test the idea with a single sheet. I loaded up a quarter pickup load.

Sometimes I wonder about myself. I just have to laugh. Getting mad does not help.


Edited by snrub (07/07/18 10:20 AM)
_________________________
John

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#493393 - 07/07/18 10:44 AM Re: New 1/4 acre pond [Re: Mike Whatley]
JKS3613 Offline


Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 113
Loc: Zachary, Louisiana
That's funny. I can so see myself doing the exact same thing!

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#493397 - 07/07/18 01:16 PM Re: New 1/4 acre pond [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 532
Loc: Louisiana
When I did the sheetrock experiment I had some dividers that come out from between stacks for transport. Same material, just cut into 3 inch strips and laminated about four strips thick. I broke these up into pieces and put it in wire baskets that were anchored with railroad spikes. Tied them off to stakes so I can retrieve. Some sank within a hour, some stayed afloat till the next day. After about two weeks I pulled them up and the only thing left in the baskets was the paper. No change to the water chemistry at all. Not even around the areas the baskets were put out. Only thing I can tell it did was rust the galvanized wire.


Edited by Mike Whatley (07/07/18 01:18 PM)
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#493398 - 07/07/18 01:25 PM Re: New 1/4 acre pond [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 532
Loc: Louisiana
The pond has very little circulation. Not even wind. The surface moves around some, but it never sees any wave action. Not even high wind affects it much. I'm thinking all the gypsum did was dissipate onto the bottom immediately around where it leached out of the baskets on the bottom, I'm thinking at around 6 foot deep.
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#498403 - 11/05/18 05:39 PM Re: New 1/4 acre pond [Re: Mike Whatley]
ballkiddy Offline


Registered: 10/30/18
Posts: 10
Loc: Lufkin Texas
I too have a new .25 pond that I'm stocking starting this week. Its about .30 acre for those of you keeping score. Im putting some hybrid blue gill in this Wednesday, I think about 250, then 5 lbs of minnows. Next spring I want to add 100 CC, but people are advising against it. Then I was told I need to add 25 LMB to keep things in check, but could prolly use a hybrid striper in its place. I do have a nice fountain I made from a harbor freight pump with some plumbing along the ponds floor, then a brass head and 2 inch PVC. Makes a lovely shower about 8 feet tall. Should the fountain run all the time? The fountain does count as aeration, right? We are going to swim and fish in the pond. What are the draw backs for the CC? why are people telling me to skip them?

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#498404 - 11/05/18 05:59 PM Re: New 1/4 acre pond [Re: Mike Whatley]
John Fitzgerald Offline


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 2040
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
100 CC is too many for your pond. About 30-40 would be better.
_________________________

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#498406 - 11/05/18 06:38 PM Re: New 1/4 acre pond [Re: Mike Whatley]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1889
Loc: West Michigan
Most would advise putting the forage in first and giving it time to reproduce (many types of forage, FHM only one type possible) and then when forage has a foothold add the hungry mouths. However, you have to first decide what is the forage backbone of your pond and this is determined by your 'growing season' in TX and also what your predator or predators will be.

Unless you like to eat (repeatedly keep up on harvesting) CC I read of very few people on this forum who are happy that they stocked CC. If it isn't something you will fish aggressively for to remove then you should be careful to think about the future.

Many in Tx find that tilapia are the backbone of their forage when they are trying to feed LMB. If you want a LMB fishery then there are many experts who can tell you how many BG or HBG to stock, how many TP, and when.

Here in a northern pond nothing grows or reproduces if you stock it now so it is kind of a moot point if you stock now or in the spring if your pond is empty.

Also predation and balance is way different now when I assume you have no vegetation (a new barren pond) compared to if you put forage in that could be eaten by predators but you balance that out by having plenty of vegetation for the forage to hide in.

As for the surface spray, this helps the top few inches move/exchange gas and can help in summer but you can't call it effective aeration unless it is moving the water on the bottom. If you are in the high heat district in TX you may need both.



Edited by canyoncreek (11/06/18 11:11 AM)

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#498424 - 11/06/18 09:34 AM Re: New 1/4 acre pond [Re: Mike Whatley]
ballkiddy Offline


Registered: 10/30/18
Posts: 10
Loc: Lufkin Texas
That's great information, thanks! We do love fishing for and eating CC, so I think it would be a good option for us. So that's my plan, im going to stock the HBG tomorrow along with my minnow, give them til next spring before the 40 CC and 10-15 LMB. You're right on the plant life, the floor of the pond is barren. We did go above and beyond however on artificial structure in the pond. I made several PVC trees, a few mil crates turned upside down and mounted to the pier, plastic barrels with small slots cut in them for the little fish, its like a giant aquarium out there! Are my numbers about right? 250 HBG and 5lbs of minnows? Dang fish truck said 500 HBG but I know they want to sell fish.

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#498425 - 11/06/18 09:41 AM Re: New 1/4 acre pond [Re: Mike Whatley]
ballkiddy Offline


Registered: 10/30/18
Posts: 10
Loc: Lufkin Texas
also, will the CC reproduce? is that why its key to fish for and remove them? Fish truck telling me they wont spawn. So is it something that I have to replenish every couple of years?

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#498430 - 11/06/18 11:16 AM Re: New 1/4 acre pond [Re: Mike Whatley]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1889
Loc: West Michigan
Many have HOPED CC wouldn't spawn and commonly the CC found a way to do so. I don't have CC but from what I have read if they can find a cavity (even a animal hole in the bank, or a hole in a tree, or a hole in one of your PVC structures or barrels) they will spawn.

Also what is your goal for the bluegill/bass ratio?


Edited by canyoncreek (11/06/18 11:17 AM)

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#498431 - 11/06/18 11:46 AM Re: New 1/4 acre pond [Re: canyoncreek]
Pat Williamson Online   content


Registered: 08/08/14
Posts: 2414
Loc: Oakwood,Texas
I have them in my 5 ac. Pond for 4 years and they are 5-7 lb and havenít spawned to my knowledge yet. The bull heads have on the other hand. So itís probably a hit or miss thing. I have at least one ac of flooded creek bottom with trees. I have a friend with a 5/8 ac pond and his did spawn. Stocked the same time as mine and from the same supplier..... so who knows....

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#498432 - 11/06/18 11:52 AM Re: New 1/4 acre pond [Re: Mike Whatley]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 843
Loc: West Central Missouri
I think you are light on the HBG. They may not be able to reproduce enough to feed the population of LMB and CC. Most folks will use regular BG with LMB. Consider using HSB instead of the LMB, or using BG instead of HBG. The actual numbers and types really depend on if you are trying to grow large panfish or challenging your small pond to grow large LMB.

I did not notice in the thread if you are planning on pellet feeding and adding aeration. These also have an impact on stocking numbers and types of fish.

I have stocked 500 HBG, 100 RES (don't forget them for snail control), and 40 HSB in my 1/4 acre pond with air and pellets. Here is the quick success story for my first year. Please do not think I am trying to sway you on your stocking plans, I am only in my fist year, but it has been a good one.
_________________________
Fish on!,
Noel

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#498433 - 11/06/18 11:54 AM Re: New 1/4 acre pond [Re: ballkiddy]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5261
Loc: SE Kansas
There are two things that I can think of that affect CC recruitment. I do have recruitment in all year classes in my main pond, by the way.

First is CC require a cavity to spawn. So if you want them to spawn put something in the pond they can use as a cavity. An old milk can, tractor or truck tire, an overturned stump that they can excavate under, a concrete slab perched on another concrete slab so there is an overhang with a protected area. In nature CC will find a hole under a tree that is undercut along side a stream or perhaps under a log in a log pile tree jam. They require someplace to protect their eggs. They need some sort of cavity for them to attempt to do that. If you don't want them to spawn (which is what most experts recommend - buy replacements as needed), don't put anything that remotely could be made into a cavity by the CC.

The second step in having CC recruitment is for the newly hatched fry to survive. Catfish form balls of fry that stay together for "protection in numbers" till they reach maybe an inch in length. They are very vulnerable to being picked off by predators. So even if you have a CC spawn, if your pond has a normal amount of predators (LMB, ect) none of the CC fry may survive. That is probably why the guy that sold you the fish said you would need to buy more.

In my case I had plenty of different things CC could use as spawning cavities (all of the above I mentioned) plus my LMB population has not done all that well with no LMB recruitment of any significance for the last three years. So in my case I had the conditions that favored CC recruitment. I have gotten my LMB numbers up this year by raising some fingerlings up to 12" in another pond and transferring them to my main pond. So I am curious now to see if the LMB prevent any more CC recruitment or if I still get new YOY CC next year. I like a small amount of CC recruitment but I have enough in my pond right now to last me the next two or three years if I don't get any more.

So as you can see, asking if you will get CC recruitment, the answer is "it depends". You can do certain management things that will either enhance your chances of CC recruitment or diminish them, depending on what you want.

With a quarter acre pond, the safest would be to manage to not have recruitment. Having said that, If you really like CC (my wife and I do for food) and are willing to feed them artificial feed and are willing to harvest to manage the population then having recruitment does not have to be a bad thing. It has not been for us. It just kind of depends on what your goals are. You can raise a lot of CC in a quarter acre if you feed them and aerate the pond. (and keep the otters out as John F on this forum will tell you. They about wiped his CC pond out)

BH catfish do not require cavities to spawn. They will spawn on a mud bottom. But a good LMB population is supposed to pretty much extirpate any reproduction also. That appears to be the case in my old refurbished pond. Used to have BH that were thick enough to be a nuisance catching so many small ones (that is the only pond that has BH). Now that the LMB population is there, hardly ever catch a BH.


Edited by snrub (11/06/18 12:14 PM)
_________________________
John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

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#498434 - 11/06/18 12:20 PM Re: New 1/4 acre pond [Re: Mike Whatley]
ballkiddy Offline


Registered: 10/30/18
Posts: 10
Loc: Lufkin Texas
we are down with Catfish here in Lufkin. I have a huge (20 ft by 3 ft) hollow oak log staked to the bottom of the pond that's going to make a perfect nesting hole for the CC. I haven't bought any fish yet, but will be getting the HBG in the morning. I don't currently have aeration besides my fountain (which is just surface) but will definitely add some if you guys recommend. We plan of feeding the fire out of them. That's the part we are looking forward to the most. I'm not married to the LMB, but I was told I'd need a few to clean up the inferior offspring of the HBG. I think that the HBG and CC would be great if I don't need something else. Do you think 400 HBG is too many? I was thinking that I would add the CC and maybe 25 LMB is the spring, but I could do hybrid bass instead.

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#498438 - 11/06/18 01:49 PM Re: New 1/4 acre pond [Re: ballkiddy]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5261
Loc: SE Kansas
I'll let others with more expertise make the numbers of what recommendations. But I will make a few comments on feeding and aeration.

I think in a small pond where you want high production and high catch rates, the HBG and CC is a great combo. Then whatever predators are needed to keep the trash cleaned up. I really like the HBG in my pond. Since the water has cooled, the BG have become rather stuck up and persnickety about what I present to them as bait. But the HBG just keep biting. If you like to catch fish in numbers and frequency, HBG fit the bill.

The more you "push" a pond, the more the management of it becomes important. The more you use artificial feed, the more important aeration is. The more you do both those things, the more important it is to keep doing them.

By adding feed you will add to the total overall carrying capacity of the pond. More fish per acre. By adding aeration in hot weather you diminish the effects of a thermocline developing so you make the lower water in the pond that was formerly not useful in the summer for fish to live in now additional volume the fish can utilize. So feed increases the carrying capacity and summer aeration increases carrying capacity.

It also means that if either one stops suddenly (most particularly aeration in the heat of the summer) you suddenly have too many fish for too little feed and livable water area. So it is important once you start pushing the limits on the ponds capacity to produce you need to make sure the systems keep going. Otherwise it can turn into a wreck (fish kill).

Harvest is also an important part of that to keep the fish carrying capacity at suitable levels. The more you feed, the more CC will need to be harvested. I started running into some water quality issues once I got around 5# of feed per acre per day so I backed off to 3# or so. I have heard Bill Cody say that over 10# feed per acre per day can cause problems. Commercial ponds go much higher than that but they have systems in place to monitor the water closely and emergency procedures should things go wrong. Those are just some numbers to give you some idea of potential feed costs and what you might do in your own pond.


Edited by snrub (11/06/18 01:54 PM)
_________________________
John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

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#498439 - 11/06/18 02:11 PM Re: New 1/4 acre pond [Re: Mike Whatley]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 843
Loc: West Central Missouri
_________________________
Fish on!,
Noel

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