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#497239 - 10/06/18 09:19 AM Golden shiner stocking since lake is low
MOFishermen Offline


Registered: 03/21/16
Posts: 25
Loc: St. Louis, Missouri
Over the last few years, we have been trying to restore our forage base in a 236 acre lake. We have had a significant drought in eastern MO for the last two years plus a minor leak in the dam. The lake has been down about 7 1/2 feet for the majority of the summer. This has allowed a significant amount of grasses to grow up around the lake perimeter.

This lake is extremely clear with visibility of over 10 feet year round. The bottom has a significant Chara growth out to about 15 water depth. Lake is part of a POA so we have opposition to fertilizing the water.

We stocked BG this spring and have been feeding them all summer. We plan to stock more BG in 2019. I wanted to ask if stocking Golden shiners would be a good idea with the grass growth. With an existing stock of LMB, we would have to stock larger shiners. I just donít know if they would have an impact on our BG stocking and growth strategies.

Thanks for any suggestions


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IMG_9526.jpg (164 downloads)
Description: Low water level 1


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#498111 - 10/30/18 09:04 PM Re: Golden shiner stocking since lake is low [Re: MOFishermen]
MOFishermen Offline


Registered: 03/21/16
Posts: 25
Loc: St. Louis, Missouri
Wanted to see if I replied to my original post if I could get some good advise on Golden shiners GSH. I have talked to Anderson minnow farm and they GSH in various sizes. I am planning on stocking BG as well in the Spring.
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#498115 - 10/30/18 10:18 PM Re: Golden shiner stocking since lake is low [Re: MOFishermen]
Bob Lusk Online   content
Editor, Pond Boss Magazine
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Registered: 04/10/02
Posts: 3120
Loc: Whitesboro, Texas
For a lake that size, stocking golden shiners may work, it may not. It depends why the bass aren't growing. If bass are overcrowded, you can stock all kinds of forage fish and it probably won't matter, especially in such a large lake.

Is this one of the Innsbruck Lakes?
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#498118 - 10/30/18 11:08 PM Re: Golden shiner stocking since lake is low [Re: MOFishermen]
MOFishermen Offline


Registered: 03/21/16
Posts: 25
Loc: St. Louis, Missouri
Bob, great to hear from you. Yes, this is the largest lake at Innsbrook. We took a tour of this lake around Labor Day. The efforts to fix the leak are still on going. With the water so far down, significant grass and vegetation have grown up. Based upon electroshock surveys, we have a low density of bass in the lake. My thought is too stock GSH and then additional BG over the next 18 months as the water levels rise into the dense habitat. We are also planning to add a lot of natural and artificial habitats this winter.
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#498151 - 10/31/18 12:54 PM Re: Golden shiner stocking since lake is low [Re: MOFishermen]
ewest Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19653
Loc: Miss.
You might look into the use of blocking nets to protect forage species in certain areas. They have been used successfully in large lakes and reservoirs to block off coves or inlets and grow forage behind them. A key to developing a forage species in a lake with existing predators (base) is to protect the forage until much of the predators based on size cant decimate the forage population.
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#498280 - 11/02/18 09:30 AM Re: Golden shiner stocking since lake is low [Re: MOFishermen]
MOFishermen Offline


Registered: 03/21/16
Posts: 25
Loc: St. Louis, Missouri
Thanks for the suggestion on blocking nets. I did some research on nets type and assume a blocking net should be a fairly small size, like a seine. Reviewing a few net manufactures website would a 1/4 inch opening be the correct size? I do have a concern that the net will grow alge and water circulation could be an issue.

Since the lake is down about 8 feet, I am thinking a 10 foot depth on the net would be necessary. The areas I could contain might be only 1500 to 2500 SF. These areas could be a small cove or maybe along a bank. I would plan to stock 3-5 inch BG and provide a feeder. Would you have a recommendation on how many fish could be stocked?
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#498289 - 11/02/18 11:24 AM Re: Golden shiner stocking since lake is low [Re: MOFishermen]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19653
Loc: Miss.
Here are several threads on blocking nets. I canít locate the best one by Shorty when he raised SMB. If anyone can find the link add it please.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=330438&page=1 Fireishot blocking net


http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=105761&page=1 CB1 blocking net

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=22523&page=1 Buying a senine/blocking net


Edit - Shorty thread SMB

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=68455&page=1


Edited by ewest (11/02/18 02:48 PM)
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#498331 - 11/03/18 06:33 PM Re: Golden shiner stocking since lake is low [Re: MOFishermen]
FireIsHot Offline
Moderator


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 3919
Loc: Emory TX
Eric, I went back and reposted the old PBucket pics on my blocking thread.




Thanks so much for the pics !!!!


Edited by ewest (11/12/18 12:56 PM)
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#498334 - 11/03/18 10:40 PM Re: Golden shiner stocking since lake is low [Re: MOFishermen]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1916
Loc: West Michigan
Looks like Photobucket added their water mark. The pictures FirelsHot just added to the blocking thread have the water mark. I wonder if the pictures we had in our albums on PBucket were grandfathered in without the water mark and new pictures added say after this month will have the water mark?

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#498349 - 11/04/18 10:08 AM Re: Golden shiner stocking since lake is low [Re: MOFishermen]
FireIsHot Offline
Moderator


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 3919
Loc: Emory TX
CC, the pics with the watermarks are George1's. I was very happy to see them back, even with the watermark.
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#498366 - 11/04/18 11:16 PM Re: Golden shiner stocking since lake is low [Re: MOFishermen]
MOFishermen Offline


Registered: 03/21/16
Posts: 25
Loc: St. Louis, Missouri
The previous posts and treads were very helpful. Photos really helped understand how to place the nets. Appreciate everyoneís help. Still trying to determine how many BG could be reared within a 1500 sf net.
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#498583 - 11/10/18 06:25 AM Re: Golden shiner stocking since lake is low [Re: MOFishermen]
Snipe Offline


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 126
Loc: NW Kansas
Have you pulled otolith from any of the sampled Bass to determine your age structure??
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#498632 - 11/11/18 10:36 PM Re: Golden shiner stocking since lake is low [Re: MOFishermen]
MOFishermen Offline


Registered: 03/21/16
Posts: 25
Loc: St. Louis, Missouri
We have not aged any fish yet. Our electroshock surveys have indicated we have a low density of bass and limited forage base. Our club will collect otoliths next spring.
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To Fish or Not to Fish?
What a stupid question!

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#498647 - 11/12/18 01:00 PM Re: Golden shiner stocking since lake is low [Re: MOFishermen]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19653
Loc: Miss.
Best bet is to net off a cove or inlet. Back seine from shore out and then set the net. Water quality will be key in raising BG in a small area. With good water quality and feeding you can raise a lot of 2-3 in BG up to 5 inches in a spring/summer. Easily several thousand in 1500 sq. feet of surface with a depth of 3 ft.
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#498687 - 11/13/18 09:53 PM Re: Golden shiner stocking since lake is low [Re: MOFishermen]
MOFishermen Offline


Registered: 03/21/16
Posts: 25
Loc: St. Louis, Missouri
Thanks for the great information. I will try the blocking net this spring. Promise to keep updating any successes or lessons learned.
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To Fish or Not to Fish?
What a stupid question!

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#499787 - 12/19/18 04:41 PM Re: Golden shiner stocking since lake is low [Re: Bob Lusk]
Snipe Offline


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 126
Loc: NW Kansas
quote=Bob Lusk]For a lake that size, stocking golden shiners may work, it may not. It depends why the bass aren't growing. If bass are overcrowded, you can stock all kinds of forage fish and it probably won't matter, especially in such a large lake.

Is this one of the Innsbruck Lakes?


@MOfisherman, this above is part of why I asked about age structure. Your "low density" may be related to other concerns.
I have a lake I help with that has what appears to be "low density" numbers but loads and loads of forage. After doing some age verification, (Just finished up) we found several of our 8-10" bass were 7+ yrs old-then naturally dead-shortly after. Forage base present are good numbers of reproducing BG, BCP & WCP, Gizzard shad and a fair number of crayfish.
I don't want to imply by any means what is stated in above posts is incorrect, but LMB in low numbers can't be the only thing left in your BOW. There is surely other species that should be loading the lake with biomass if LMB are low density. If not, this leads me to think in simple terms, low proper habitat-which isn't as simple as it sounds, is an issue.
Macrophytes in large expanse are very important, but if fry are present in any number, of any species, with low density LMB, there should be large numbers of something else.
My 2 cents are likely worth 1 cent at best compared to some of these other folks but I feel like adding more forage is not going to fix your issue. It's obviously not heavy predation that's causing it (the problem). It sounds like a lack of large amounts of proper ambush cover and a lack of (proper)nursery habitat. If the grass is terrestrial in nature, that will be short lived and an oxygen burner, if it is aquatic then things may be different.
There very well could be factors involved we don't even know about, but I'm a strong believer in what we first see as a problem is usually the result of a problem we aren't looking at.
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#499825 - 12/20/18 12:04 PM Re: Golden shiner stocking since lake is low [Re: Snipe]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19653
Loc: Miss.
Originally Posted By: Snipe
There very well could be factors involved we don't even know about, but I'm a strong believer in what we first see as a problem is usually the result of a problem we aren't looking at.


So true - the more facts and data the better chance the conclusion will be correct.


-----------------------------------------------------------------

This thread http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=499823#Post499823


Great article by Dave Beasley in the new PB issue. Good discussion piece - suggest everyone read it.

Thinking Past the Obvious


"Waterbodies are complex, and as one variable shifts it influences another, which influences another."


"Unfortunately for pond owners, issues viewed as problems are actually symptoms of the real problem."



Dave has an outstanding take on peer reviewed study results (single objective) in a controlled/measured situation vs the complexity of a pond system with many ongoing active variables. His point - " The complexity of ecosystems and their influence from a large number of variables do not lend itself well to peer-reviewable scientific conclusions." The reason (my words) is studies generally focus on a singular controlled objective and drawing straight line conclusions from them to ponds is overly simplistic and often incorrect. That is where science, experience and the Art of Pond Management come into play.


Edited by ewest (12/20/18 12:06 PM)
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#499832 - 12/21/18 01:58 AM Re: Golden shiner stocking since lake is low [Re: Snipe]
teehjaeh57 Offline
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent
Lunker

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 7934
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Originally Posted By: Snipe
quote=Bob Lusk]For a lake that size, stocking golden shiners may work, it may not. It depends why the bass aren't growing. If bass are overcrowded, you can stock all kinds of forage fish and it probably won't matter, especially in such a large lake.

Is this one of the Innsbruck Lakes?


@MOfisherman, this above is part of why I asked about age structure. Your "low density" may be related to other concerns.
I have a lake I help with that has what appears to be "low density" numbers but loads and loads of forage. After doing some age verification, (Just finished up) we found several of our 8-10" bass were 7+ yrs old-then naturally dead-shortly after. Forage base present are good numbers of reproducing BG, BCP & WCP, Gizzard shad and a fair number of crayfish.
I don't want to imply by any means what is stated in above posts is incorrect, but LMB in low numbers can't be the only thing left in your BOW. There is surely other species that should be loading the lake with biomass if LMB are low density. If not, this leads me to think in simple terms, low proper habitat-which isn't as simple as it sounds, is an issue.
Macrophytes in large expanse are very important, but if fry are present in any number, of any species, with low density LMB, there should be large numbers of something else.
My 2 cents are likely worth 1 cent at best compared to some of these other folks but I feel like adding more forage is not going to fix your issue. It's obviously not heavy predation that's causing it (the problem). It sounds like a lack of large amounts of proper ambush cover and a lack of (proper)nursery habitat. If the grass is terrestrial in nature, that will be short lived and an oxygen burner, if it is aquatic then things may be different.
There very well could be factors involved we don't even know about, but I'm a strong believer in what we first see as a problem is usually the result of a problem we aren't looking at.


This is the advice I provided him on a phone conference call - do not stock GSH rather focus budget and effort on adding dense structure [cedars] 3-6' depth to beef up the BG forage base, harvest or move low WR LMB. Also recommended improving BG density by moving adult female BG from surrounding lakes to provide a jump start. Guess he was seeking a second opinion following our consult.
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#499870 - 12/23/18 10:07 AM Re: Golden shiner stocking since lake is low [Re: MOFishermen]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19653
Loc: Miss.
That would work as well with the addition of enough adult BG. You could also improve BG recruitment to 4 inches+ using a blocking net and feeder.
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