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#495147 08/21/18 07:52 PM
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Automatic Siphon System Idea

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Well after struggling for hours trying to get this drawing loaded my wife did it on her computer for me in less than 10 minutes. Maybe now someone can critique this idea for an automatic siphon system idea in northern climates. As I stated in a previous post, the entire system would be buried to the depth of the frost line in your location. My handwriting is terrible I know. Good or bad, all comments are greatly appreciated!
Heppy

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I guess it would help if I provided a little explanation. If you look at a normal automatic bottom draw siphon system the vent is above ground allowing the bottom draw to act as a normal overflow pipe until the water level covers the vent hole. Once this happens your bottom draw goes into siphon mode until the water level drops below the vent opening breaking the siphon mode. It then returns to normal overflow. Northern climates have to contend with freezing conditions in winter and Southern climates have to make sure their vent doesn’t get blocked. If the vent gets either frozen or blocked, there is a risk of entirely siphoning your pond. The only difference with the idea that I have would be that the entire system would be completely buried below the frost line in your location. This idea would eliminate both possibilities if it will work. The downward open end of the vent that will reach the water in a siphon control would extend inside a larger piece of pipe that is higher than the apex of the main siphon pipe. An adapter (example 2” pipe to 4” pipe adapter) is also higher than the apex of the siphon pipe would allow you to have the smaller pipe inside a larger pipe with hole(s) drilled in the smaller pipe up to the point it reaches the apex level of the siphon pipe. The solid larger pipe would extend underneath the face of the dam before coming out into the water side face of the dam (trash rack on the end of the larger pipe???) that would then be covered with rock to allow water not debris to rise and fall in the larger pipe as the water level rises and falls. The hole(s) in the smaller pipe inside the larger solid pipe would control when the water siphons and stops. I was thinking this might be a possible solution for those in northern and southern climates. Comments?
Thanks,
Heppy

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http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=482496#Post482496
This is the post by DC70 that got me thinking you could possibly use just one siphon pipe.
Heppy

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Hi Heppy. That’s an interesting idea and it definitely makes me think....

I may not be completely wrapping my head around it, but is the larger pipe (4” in your example) that you have drawn around the vent - is that open to the atmosphere somewhere? Seems like it would need to be open to let the water inside raise and lower with the pond. You may have already accounted for this, but if you were to add a small pipe from your 4” pipe to the surface to let air in and out, it just may work.

Last edited by Hogfan; 08/25/18 12:24 AM.
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Hogfan, an automatic start/stop siphon has a small pipe for a "siphon break'" and is set at a few inches above "full pool" water level.

Water will always raise or lower in the main pipe, because the atmosphere forces the water up the inlet (water always seeks it's own level and is the water level is the same inside the pipe as it is outside it)

When the vent pipe is under water in a rain event, AND the pool level reaches the bottom of the highest siphon pipe point, the siphon automatically starts.....when the pool lowers, and the vent sucks air, the siphon stops and becomes a "normal" drain again.

Edit:

A siphon inlet and vent pipe need good trash guards to eliminate the possibility of a clog...if an inlet plugs from a turtle or fish, the dam could get breached...if a vent gets plugged, the pond lowers to the inlet level of the siphon. A 45* angle pipe on the outlet that pools and "seals" to stop air entering from the outlet is a must also, or the siphon will hammer from stopping and starting over and over

Heppy, I don't understand why you have so much depth for your vent tube.....

Last edited by Rainman; 08/25/18 05:18 AM.


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Rainmain,
I was thinking of having the multiple vent holes in the smaller pipe if there was some type of build up that might happen because it is buried that I hadn’t taken into consideration when starting and stopping the siphon. If I am overthinking this a smaller pipe cut a few inches above normal pool buried might be the better option. In the drawing it shows covering the larger pipe with rock and some type of trash guard. What would you suggest as an ideal buried setup for an Automatic siphon system?
Thanks!
Heppy

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Heppy, after I first saw DC70's system I had the same thoughts regarding a completely closed system. I also have the same thoughts as Hogfan, regarding whether or not the chamber needs to be opened to the atmosphere to allow the displacement of air with water. Perhaps a sufficient volume of air in a completely close system would overcome vapor lock, and allow it to work, I dunno.

I suppose some experimentation could be done on a smaller scale using small piping or tubing. If a full size system were built and it failed, at least you could correct it by way of adding a vent tube as Hogfan suggested.

Also, perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't understand your idea of drilling the holes in the smaller vent pipe. It seems to me that the highest hole in the vent pipe is the only one of importance, therefore that is where the end of the pipe should be, as with a normal automatic siphon system.

Edit: Doh! I just saw your above post, where you explained that the perforated vent pipe acts as a trash guard. That's a good idea!

Last edited by gully washer; 08/25/18 12:41 PM.
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Heppy, the vent being buried may be a bit of overkill, but as long as the "larger" pipe is vented to atmosphere, you could certainly use a pipe that goes under the water to allow the vent supply tube to let water rise and fall.

For strainers, I keep it simple...for the inlet of the siphon, I use a 10' long TEE (5' on each half) with caps on the ends. I drill about 150 1/2"-1" holes in the TEE on each half...this reduces overall suction at any given point, and prevents fish, trash from clogging anything. For the vent..very course rock may work, but will probably silt in over time....a TEE for the water level tube similar to the siphon inlet may be better (no pressures for anything to clog)

Note...with no covers on the inlets in DC70's design, turtles or large fish could easily plug the pipes, plus a stick could get sucked in and get trapped in an elbow...once leaf litter enters the pipe, it will plug up like concrete and become a real bear to try clearing

Last edited by Rainman; 08/25/18 02:36 PM.


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Rainman,
I like the way you use the capped 5’ of perforated pipe on each side of the TEE as your trash guard on your siphon pipe. I also think that would be ideal on the larger vent supply pipe. Is it correct to assume using the modifications you have suggested will work in any climate buried below the frost line? If this is correct I will post another drawing that others may refer to in the future.
Thanks!
Heppy

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Originally Posted By: Heppy
Rainman,
I like the way you use the capped 5’ of perforated pipe on each side of the TEE as your trash guard on your siphon pipe. I also think that would be ideal on the larger vent supply pipe. Is it correct to assume using the modifications you have suggested will work in any climate buried below the frost line? If this is correct I will post another drawing that others may refer to in the future.
Thanks!
Heppy


It will absolutely work, as the piping will never freeze. I'd also suggest no larger than 3/16" holes drilled into the upper 4" of vent pipe itself with larger (1/2"-1") holes lower so there will be far less venturi (whirlpool) action that will lower the vent supply line and suck air, making the siphon hammer stopping and starting. (you'll be amazed at how much destructive force there is when the siphon stops and starts). Also, make the vent pipe rise about a foot higher than shown in DC70's design, and raise the vent supply pipe as well (also to prevent supply pipe level drop/air entering)

Last edited by Rainman; 08/26/18 09:09 AM.


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Rainman,
I just emailed a drawing to you to for confirmation.
Thanks!
Heppy

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Hogfan and gully washer
You are correct! There needs to be a vent to the surface from the 4 inch pipe. I just got off the phone with Rex (Rainman). He will be in touch with me later and a diagram will be posted soon.
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Originally Posted By: Heppy
Hogfan and gully washer
You are correct! There needs to be a vent to the surface from the 4 inch pipe. I just got off the phone with Rex (Rainman). He will be in touch with me later and a diagram will be posted soon.
Heppy


Roger that - I think that will work. Rereading DC70’s thread, I initially missed this statement: “I ran a 4 inch piece of pipe to the surface with a grate flush with the ground for the air to enter.” Appears that he used this 4” line to equalize the underground chamber pipe to let the water inside raise and lower. Sounds like you are on the right track. Whatever you do, don’t let that surface pipe clog, it could drain the pond before it breaks siphon.

Good luck!

Last edited by Hogfan; 08/26/18 04:06 PM.
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I am sorta putting the cart before the horse but what does anyone think of this for a surface vent cover?
https://www.amazon.com/Canplas-133070GN-...v_1535323476419
Thanks
Heppy
Edit: This was posted before I understood what Rex was telling me. I wouldn’t use this.

Last edited by Heppy; 08/30/18 02:05 PM.
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Automatic Siphon System

Edit: As you will read below the TEE for the vent supply tube is unnecessary.

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Last edited by Heppy; 08/30/18 02:08 PM.
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Tips by Rex earlier today.
Tip #1 Use the rubber stainless steel banded couplers at each joint on the Siphon pipe. The reason for this is to allow some flexibility in the Siphon pipe when it breaks siphon. If you only have glued joints and the joint broke underground you might have to dig up the entire pipe trying to find the leak. Let’s call it insurance. An example Rex told me about that most of you will be able to relate to is when there is air in your water pipes at home. When you hear and feel the hammer of air breaking through your pipes and faucets this is only 1/2” pipe. Now imagine that with a 6”+ siphon pipe. He also recommended painting rubber on each screw on the stainless steel bands because the screw is made of zinc and will quickly rust out.

Tip #2 Put a varmit guard on the outlet pipe on the backside of the dam. It should be spaced approximately 2” apart. If you want you can use rebar. The reasoning behind this is to keep raccoon size critters from crawling inside getting stuck and dying. I’m no raccoon lover but the major problem is if they die they swell up and completely block your Siphon pipe. In turn water could potentially run over the top and wash away your dam.

If you feel this information has been helpful pass it along. This system can be used anywhere as long as it is buried below the frost line wherever you may be located.

Thanks for the help Rex(Rainman) and like you said today as Bruce Condello once told you that “if you know more than 99% of the people around you, then you are an expert.” Rex if anything here is incorrect feel free to let me know.

As I stated before if you cannot read my handwriting I understand, sometimes I can’t read it either. If you need help just ask. The keyboard is much clearer!
God Bless,
Heppy

Last edited by Heppy; 08/30/18 01:23 PM.
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Sounds like a good plan. Although I do think it would work just fine, I would be a little anxious about the vent going through the wall of the vent chamber pipe with silicone. They make grommets that will do that. Not sure which would last longer underground, silicone or a rubber grommet. If things shift during dam settlement, I think I would rather have a rubber grommet than the silicone. Actually, after I think more about it, I might even bring the vent tube up to the surface and go into the vent chamber above ground...just so I could easily maintain it and there would be no soil to migrate into the chamber above ground. The vent tube won’t have water in it most of the time (except during siphoning) and I don’t see that it would freeze. Just a thought. Definitely not required.

I think that vent cap you posted would work, but I think I would just cap the pipe with a standard PVC cap, and drill holes in the cap and pipe. Leaving the cap unglued so you could remove if needed. I would also be tempted to extend it above the ground a foot or two. I would think that would help keep debris (grass clippings, roots, etc) from entering the chamber. That may help the system last longer. Whatever you do, put a tee post or two around anything above ground so you don’t mow over it!

Also, I’m assuming your vent chamber perforated tees are extending into you reservoir area, correct? Hard to tell from the drawing.

Good luck!


Last edited by Hogfan; 08/27/18 01:04 PM.
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Hogfan,
I’m guessing the rubber grommets or silicone would work just fine. The amount of dirt or debris that enters the vent pipe should be negligible. In my location the frost line is at 18”. In January of this year the temperature never got above freezing for 10 straight days. That rarely happens around here for an extended period of time. However, my objective is to have this system work wherever someone is located. I personally would like to be able to mow over the barely visible vent without concern of hitting the pipes but you are right any pipe above ground should be anchored with a post. Rex said the same thing as you about using a removable drilled cap in order to access the vent pipe inside the 4” vent supply pipe and I might just do that. You are correct the 4” vent supply is at approximately a 45 degree angle extending underground into the water resting on the face of the dam. The depth of the vent supply would need to come out into the pond onto the face of the dam below ice depth depending on where someone was located.
Thanks!
Heppy

Edit: No TEE needed on vent supply pipe.

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Hogfan, I suggested heppy make the vent supply line (for water to raise and lower in) to be always angled downward into the pond pool....it will not matter if soil or grass enters the supply pipe....the crud will migrate into the pond...the hole into the supply pipe does not even need any seal at all. If water rose, it is on the pond side of the dam core, so no harm getting things wet, and again, any soil entering would be a minor, meaningless amount. there is no danger of erosion...Last, if your dam "settles" much, if at all, it was never compacted and constructed properly to begin with.

I also suggested installing an access basin around the vent tube crossover and vent supply pipe...and adding valve in the vent tube, along with another TEE on the vent tube between the siphon and valve, so the siphon can be manually started in case you need to do a draw-down or draining of the pond

The vent supply pipe does not need the TEE, only the siphon inlet. Capping the supply pipe, and drilling a couple 1" holes at the lowest point will keep it clear, and then several 1/2" holes elsewhere will allow it to easily stay at pool level.

Last edited by Rainman; 08/28/18 09:11 AM.


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I think that will work as you described it. Pretty neat idea. Thanks for sharing.

You are right about settlement and proper compaction within the dam, so that hopefully won’t be an issue if done correctly. The textbooks say that settlement usually occurs in the foundation once the weight of the dam is in place.

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Thanks for the clarification Rex! Now I understand what you were telling me about the basin and valve. I was looking at an old thread by lassig from 2012 and saw where it said to drill a 1/4” weep hole at the lowest point of the 45 degree elbow on the outlet pipe at the toe of the dam to prevent standing water from freezing in the winter causing an ice plug. Is this your recommendation?
Many Thanks!
Heppy

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Hogfan,
Here is a link to the “grommet” if that concerns you. This is for a 2” pipe.

https://www.aussieglobe.com/2-Uniseal-U2...ASABEgKG8vD_BwE

Heppy

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Originally Posted By: Heppy
Thanks for the clarification Rex! Now I understand what you were telling me about the basin and valve. I was looking at an old thread by lassig from 2012 and saw where it said to drill a 1/4” weep hole at the lowest point of the 45 degree elbow on the outlet pipe at the toe of the dam to prevent standing water from freezing in the winter causing an ice plug. Is this your recommendation?
Many Thanks!
Heppy


A weep hole should work fine, or if wanted, you could make a bend below the frost line yet still close to the outlet that would prevent air entering all the way to the apex



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Thanks Rex! I’ve been thinking about making the vent supply pipe larger (6”+) so it would serve as the access basin containing the elbow and downward vent pipe (below frost line) with a grate on the surface of the dam. I also thought I would put the TEE on the vent pipe at one foot above the siphon pipe (for the vent crosspipe) and extend the vertical part on the TEE to the top of the dam (surface). This part would be capped at the surface of the dam. I was wondering if I needed a check valve above the TEE on the vertical pipe between the TEE and the surface cap in order for the automatic and manual siphon to start. In other words, if the top of my main siphon pipe is 24” or more below ground will the amount of air in the vertical portion of vent pipe need a check valve to overcome the amount of air above the TEE to the top of the dam surface for automatic or manual Siphon to start? What do you think?
Heppy

Last edited by Heppy; 09/24/18 01:01 AM.
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