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#496698 - 09/21/18 09:27 PM Re: New Pond Records [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 857
Loc: West Central Missouri
I fish in the evening before I feed (if bites are lacking, I feed. Not sure if that actually helps with the hsb, seems to improve the hbg bites though). I use a white #1 mepps(barbs pinched) and a medium light rod and reel. I cast out in the middle and give the rod a quick but steady pull to get the spinner spinning, then reel the lure in as slow as I can while keeping the spinner active. That's it. The lure runs deep enough to stay out of sight (20 inches or deeper) and hits are sudden and hard, no playing around like LMB can tend to do. Of course, I've only caught 4 or 5. There main foods are fhm and pellets.
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Fish on!,
Noel

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#496721 - 09/22/18 08:36 AM Re: Feed Trained Crawdads??? [Re: Quarter Acre]
jpsdad Online   content


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 238
Loc: Texas
Your crawfish are a great success QA. I see you have some good habitat for them also.

HSB and HBG look great as well. Excellent growth.


Edited by jpsdad (09/22/18 08:38 AM)

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#496724 - 09/22/18 08:57 AM Re: New Pond Records [Re: Quarter Acre]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1319
Loc: NE Missouri
Iíll give it a shot. Iíve tried everything else, short of dynamite.
Thx
_________________________
4 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

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#496800 - 09/24/18 11:57 AM Re: Feed Trained Crawdads??? [Re: jpsdad]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 857
Loc: West Central Missouri
Originally Posted By: jpsdad
Your crawfish are a great success QA. I see you have some good habitat for them also.

HSB and HBG look great as well. Excellent growth.


Thanks jps...I counted 12 craws last weekend eating the pellets all within the 20 feet of bank that I have taken to throwing a little food at. They all appeared out from the shadows in a matter of a minute once the food as thrown.

And Jeff...I lied to you. I have been using a Rooster Tail brand spinner, not a Mepps and its smaller than a #1 Mepps too, but if your HSB have been in the pond for several years a small spinner will likely get swallowed. I actually had HBG get that small Rooster Tail swallowed pretty deep the other day and I have stepped up to that #1 Mepps. I didn't catch a thing however. But, I have altered my aeration timing to days instead of nights which has the fish out of whack as well. Good fishing to you!
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Fish on!,
Noel

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#496813 - 09/24/18 06:30 PM Re: Feed Trained Crawdads??? [Re: Quarter Acre]
Flame Online   content


Registered: 09/12/14
Posts: 1075
Loc: Deep East Texas
On all your little treble hooks you can still cut off two of the 3 hooks and bends and pinch the barb down on the remaining one. Just makes it a lot easier to remove. One hook is all you really need IMO.
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#496817 - 09/24/18 07:41 PM Re: Feed Trained Crawdads??? [Re: Quarter Acre]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1319
Loc: NE Missouri
Originally Posted By: Quarter Acre

And Jeff...I lied to you. I have been using a Rooster Tail brand spinner, not a Mepps and its smaller than a #1 Mepps too, but if your HSB have been in the pond for several years a small spinner will likely get swallowed. I actually had HBG get that small Rooster Tail swallowed pretty deep the other day and I have stepped up to that #1 Mepps. I didn't catch a thing however. But, I have altered my aeration timing to days instead of nights which has the fish out of whack as well. Good fishing to you!


Thanks! Iíve recruited my son in law to help with this project. To catch the uncatchable! We will try anything and everything.
_________________________
4 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

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#496921 - 09/27/18 07:36 PM Re: Fish's First Fall Observations [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 857
Loc: West Central Missouri
Three things have happened over the last week or so...natural and induced by myself.

First off, the night time air temps have dropped well below the pond's water temps (air is in the 50's at night while the water was at upper 70's). Daytime temps are barely above the pond temps as well (Daytime air temps in the 70s compared to water temps at 69 degrees F today).

Secondly, I have switched to running the aeration from a 9pm - 9am night time schedule to a daytime 9am - 1pm schedule in an attempt to keep from cooling the pond down and possibly warming it slightly during the day. The end result has been vague at best. The pond temps have dropped from the upper 70's to upper 60's despite the aeration change. Maybe it slowed the drop down, but I've not been impressed. It seems like summer just quit and let fall come right in the door. (the weather has been beautiful for being outside, however)

And lastly, with the aeration and temp changes...the fish have slowed way down on feeding and, even though there has been regular fishing, the catching as been lacking. I will continue to aerate for the near future during the day, I guess until daily air temps become below the water temps...then taper the air off and reserve the shallow diffuser for ice-off duty.

The crawdads, however, are really proving themselves. I bought a small throw net for fun and spent 30 minutes today goofing around the pond and probably caught 40 - 4" to 5" long virile craws. I released them to provide next years generation, but next year...I may have a small boil.
_________________________
Fish on!,
Noel

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#496955 - 09/28/18 01:37 PM Re: Fish's First Fall Observations [Re: Quarter Acre]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19619
Loc: Miss.
Fall is an important time for fish going into winter especially in northern areas. They need to feed to add reserves for winter. Next PB mag has an article on this so be sure to subscribe.
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#497294 - 10/08/18 08:59 AM Re: New Pond Records [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 857
Loc: West Central Missouri
I have bested my friend's recent record at my pond for HSB. Yesterdays HSB catch was 1.4 pounds at about 13 inches. 1/10th of a pound heavier may not be much, but I'll take it! It took me several weeks to get one to even bite. There has been only one HSB caught since the last record catch (three weeks)and I did not have the scale with me to check it's weight. It's nice to have the record back in my name...I think I will give the pond a break now from any fishing pressure.



Attachments
Oct Record HSB.jpg (397 downloads)



Edited by Quarter Acre (10/08/18 09:00 AM)
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Fish on!,
Noel

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#497353 - 10/10/18 09:26 AM Fall Aeration Schedule Change [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 857
Loc: West Central Missouri
Log Entry...The outside air temps have been expected to drop about 30 degrees this week (highs in the 80's to highs in the 40's) and I have changed the aeration time from (9am to 1pm) to (noon to 4pm). Right, wrong, or indifferent I assume that running the air during the warmest part of the day is best until the outside air temps cool below the water temps. This should happen today as the high is forecast to be 63F and the water temps have been in the upper 60's. I will be cutting the air times in half daily until the 15 minute mark is hit this weekend and then shutting it down, unless convinced otherwise. The theory I am sticking with is that the aeration needs to stop once the air temps get below the water temps.
_________________________
Fish on!,
Noel

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#497382 - 10/11/18 08:34 AM Re: Fall Aeration Schedule Change [Re: Quarter Acre]
liquidsquid Offline


Registered: 11/20/11
Posts: 1938
Loc: East Bloomfield, NY USA
Observations have shown me that as long as there isn't a ton of wind, the water will chill from the bottom up, as well as the top inch or two will be chilled. That top layer gets heavy enough, it sinks in areas to the bottom, and you can see this take place at the surface when you have no wind with small waves out of nowhere. There will be a warmish layer between the two cold where the fish will hang out until the warm layer mixes out.

I would assume aeration would break up that warm layer, so that the entire column would be about the same temperature except for maybe the top couple of inches, slowing the bottom cooling but speeding up the warm layer cooling.

Personally I would turn off aeration during fast cold snaps, no need to speed up the chilling process and ruin the refuge in a warmish layer. The natural turnover of that top cold layer to the bottom will bring down plenty of dissolved O2. Of course these events are usually accompanied by high winds, so it probably makes no difference one way or the other, unless you are talking at night when everything has gone still.
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#497415 - 10/12/18 08:55 AM Re: Fall Aeration Schedule Change [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 857
Loc: West Central Missouri
Thanks for chiming in with your observations Liquid! Its' amazing how I never stop learning new things here, you have given me even more to ponder and watch for.

Yesterday's high was 53, today's is supposed to be 47. I quickly ramped my aeration times down this week and it won't be running today. The pond water column last night was 67 to 68 degrees and feeding was practically nonexistent with the exception of some FHM's and, of course, the crawdads. I will be checking the temps over the next several days to watch for cold weather stratification.
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Fish on!,
Noel

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#497641 - 10/18/18 09:57 AM Re: Fall Observations [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 857
Loc: West Central Missouri
More observations for the record...I have been watching the pond's water column getting cooler and cooler. It has dropped from the upper 60's to the mid-upper 50's in the last week with the bottom at 7 foot a few degrees cooler than the upper sections. No evidence of stratification yet;keep in mind that the pond is 10 foot deep and my dock only allows easy temp readings down to 7 foot deep.

Feeding is pretty much non-existent by the game fish, maybe a few isolated surface takers. The minnows have stayed hidden for the most part, but the feed mostly disappears or gets dispersed by the FHM's over the course of 30 minutes. I will reduce the feeding from 1/3 pound/day in half and suspect that the will be reduced even further over the next week or so.

The crawdad's feeding enthusiasm has diminished, as well. It takes longer for them to show up to feed and it seems that there are only about half as many visible(6 total vs 12 before)at any given time. And, they are moving slower too.

Before too long it will be a chore to "hang out" at the dock and take readings...I don't like the cold!
_________________________
Fish on!,
Noel

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#498881 - 11/21/18 04:09 PM Re: Fall Observations [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 857
Loc: West Central Missouri
Well, a month has gone by and not much change.

Last night's water temps showed 40 to 42 (degrees F) from top to bottom. I keep thinking that it should be warmer towards the bottom. I do not expect to see stratification with the aerators on, but they have been off for over a month. Where's the stratification? I only measure temps down to the bottom at the end of the dock...7 foot deep, but the pond is 10 foot deep out in the middle. I guess I need to tie a longer cord to my thermometer and give it a good throw out in to the pond...my stratification plane may be below 7 foot.

We did get a thin layer of ice over the pond a week or so ago that lasted a few days. Pretty early for ice on the pond, but it's gone now.
_________________________
Fish on!,
Noel

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#499618 - Yesterday at 03:50 PM Re: Fall Observations [Re: Quarter Acre]
liquidsquid Offline


Registered: 11/20/11
Posts: 1938
Loc: East Bloomfield, NY USA
As a little aside, last week I changed my aquarium water, and added water that was a little too warm. Maybe only about 5 degrees F too warm. It stratified on the top 8 inches or so, and the filter didn't stir it up very quickly.

I fed the fish, and all but a couple of them REFUSED to go through that warm layer to the food. I suppose this relates to when we observe our pond fish not coming to feed at the surface. They may not feel comfortable jumping through the sharp jumps in temperature, and will instead wait for the food to come down to them.
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#499619 - Yesterday at 04:13 PM Re: Fall Observations [Re: Quarter Acre]
Bocomo Online   content


Registered: 05/06/12
Posts: 1162
Loc: Boone County, MO (pond)
Originally Posted By: Quarter Acre
Well, a month has gone by and not much change.

Last night's water temps showed 40 to 42 (degrees F) from top to bottom. I keep thinking that it should be warmer towards the bottom. I do not expect to see stratification with the aerators on, but they have been off for over a month. Where's the stratification? I only measure temps down to the bottom at the end of the dock...7 foot deep, but the pond is 10 foot deep out in the middle. I guess I need to tie a longer cord to my thermometer and give it a good throw out in to the pond...my stratification plane may be below 7 foot.

We did get a thin layer of ice over the pond a week or so ago that lasted a few days. Pretty early for ice on the pond, but it's gone now.





Hi QA,

There are many reasons why it might not stratify yet. But here's one -- the water isn't cold enough.



The relationship of water density to temperature is parabolic. Meaning, the density of water increases as it cools--for a while. Then it goes down again. (see chart)

In the fall and early winter, the water cools at the surface and sinks. This water movement is often called pond turnover and keeps happening until the magic temperature of 39F is reached top-to-bottom. 39F is the temperature at which water is maximally dense.

Then it stops. When the water at the surface cools below 39F, it becomes less dense and won't sink. It will 'float' on top. The 39F water at the bottom is dense, and it will stay there. This is the winter stratification pattern.

Note that it's opposite of the summer stratification pattern, which is in a temperature range where the cooler water is more dense!



Edited by Bocomo (Yesterday at 04:15 PM)
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#499625 - Yesterday at 09:31 PM Re: Fall Observations [Re: Quarter Acre]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 545
Loc: Louisiana
That's interesting information Bocomo.

It also raises several questions for those of us way down south. What if your pond surface never sees 39F? Does it not have a winter turn over? Or just not as quickly?

I shut my aeration down about the same time as QA, and at that time, the variance top to bottom (10ft) was 3 degrees, and while I haven't taken a top to bottom reading recently, my last surface reading was still above 50 this past weekend.

Before aeration, I know the pond had a spring turnover, as you could see it.
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#499636 - Today at 11:11 AM Re: Fall Observations [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 857
Loc: West Central Missouri
That helps my understanding a lot Bocomo. Thanks for the info! I always thought that the water near the bottom would be thermally warmed by the surrounding earth, kind of like how a cave is always 60 degrees F. I would, now surmise that the opposite is happening. The surrounding earth is being overpowered and cooled by the cooler, sinking water.

I'll have to put more thought into this to really wrap my head around it.
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Fish on!,
Noel

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#499637 - Today at 11:33 AM Re: Fall Observations [Re: Mike Whatley]
Bocomo Online   content


Registered: 05/06/12
Posts: 1162
Loc: Boone County, MO (pond)
Originally Posted By: Mike Whatley

It also raises several questions for those of us way down south. What if your pond surface never sees 39F? Does it not have a winter turn over? Or just not as quickly?


It will still turnover as the water cools at the surface and sinks. It just won't stratify in the same manner.
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#499638 - Today at 11:36 AM Re: Fall Observations [Re: Quarter Acre]
Bocomo Online   content


Registered: 05/06/12
Posts: 1162
Loc: Boone County, MO (pond)
Originally Posted By: Quarter Acre
That helps my understanding a lot Bocomo. Thanks for the info! I always thought that the water near the bottom would be thermally warmed by the surrounding earth, kind of like how a cave is always 60 degrees F. I would, now surmise that the opposite is happening. The surrounding earth is being overpowered and cooled by the cooler, sinking water.

I'll have to put more thought into this to really wrap my head around it.


Your first instinct is still correct, though! There is definitely heat transfer between the pond water and the pond bottom. If the ground is still very hot it will slow the cooling of the pond when air temperatures drop. That's probably as far as I want to go in terms of a scientific explanation. The dynamics of heat transfer in open systems is beyond my expertise as I'm a biochemist and much better at closed systems than open ones.


Edited by Bocomo (Today at 11:39 AM)
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