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New 2 acre Pond - Paris Texas area. In April of this year, i put in 1600 medium CNBG, 400 medium RedEar, 30# fathead minnows - no predators - I've fed all spring and summer and have had several hatches based on the fry around the shoreline. i'm ready to start the bass. My goal is to grow good size fish, but i want catchability above trying to grow 8-10# bass. planning to start with the 6"-8" size

What is the forum opinion on starting the F-1 Tiger bass versus the native LMB ?

Also, thinking i'm going to add 50-75 hybrid stripped bass as well?

thoughts ??

What about timing of stocking now or in spring?

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I started in March, (1 acre pond), with 1000 cnbg, 200 redears, and 15 lbs of fatheads. Then, in June I stocked 120 F1 Tiger's from American Sportfish. All are thriving and the bass have already grown from 2" in June to 7" now! Growth will eventually slow down, I'm sure, but it's been phenomenal so far. They are also very aggressive and already will hit and tear up a small swim bait. I don't see a downside to adding them at all. Best of both worlds in my opinion. Now, as for the HSB, I'm not sure if you want two apex predators added at the same time like that, but I'll leave that to those here that are more knowledgeable than I on that subject, (*which is most! lol). I just wanted to share my personal experience and say that so far, I am very happy with my choice of F1's.

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Mix them up.75 LMB and 30 HSB all 6-8 inches. On the LMB 30 Northern , 30 F-1s and 15 Fla LMB. For the life of those fish you will maintain genetic potential for both goals. In the south (roughly I-10 to I-20) over time studies show that Fla LMB genes tend to increase in % of a mixed population. See the last issue of PB mag on LMB genetics and catchability.

Last edited by ewest; 09/18/18 03:36 PM.















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That is so interesting. (I haven't had a chance to read the article yet) So, based on your post above, would you recommend that I also add some pure Northern and Florida at some point as well? If so, should I do it soon and remove a corresponding number of F1's in order to keep total population the same? Since they haven't spawned yet, and I haven't seen any dead ones, I assume that I still have around the original number of 120. They are also still the size (6-7") that I can reasonably buy new ones to add. Thanks in advance for your input!

Originally Posted By: ewest
Mix them up.75 LMB and 30 HSB all 6-8 inches. On the LMB 30 Northern , 30 F-1s and 15 Fla LMB. For the life of those fish you will maintain genetic potential for both goals. In the south (roughly I-10 to I-20) over time studies show that Fla LMB genes tend to increase in % of a mixed population. See the last issue of PB mag on LMB genetics and catchability.

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If you want catchability, I would pass on the Florida’s. They aren’t user friendly.


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Hello neighbor. I think northern will be much easier to catch after they get big, so would do at least mix of Northern and tigers.


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I had in mind stocking them all at the same time. You could do as you suggested.

The reason for some of all is to have genetics set in original stockers which should be alive for 8-10 years. There is some concern by others that F-1s lead to reduced quality genetics over time. I don't share that belief for southern waters. But to avoid the possibility and have a few Fla genes I would add a few Flas. Not many but about 15%. If they spawn with Flas you retain pure Fla genes, if they spawn with F-1s you have higher % Fla gene crosses and if they spawn with northerns then you have more F-1s. Same concept with northerns and F-1s. You can then manage from there by harvest and adding new genes if needed.

Last edited by ewest; 09/19/18 10:55 AM.















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Thanks ewest! I have researched outbreeding depression on F1's a little bit myself and I agree with you that I don't believe it to be a major issue. That was also the opinion of a couple of Auburn and LSU fisheries biologists I have spoken to as well. Your stocking plan sounds very interesting so I am going to definitely give it a lot of consideration while I can still get fish similar in size to what I have. Thanks again.

Since I mentioned Auburn and LSU....Wasn't that a great game last weekend? grin


Originally Posted By: ewest
I had in mind stocking them all at the same time. You could do as you suggested.

The reason for some of all is to have genetics set in original stockers which should be alive for 8-10 years. There is some concern by others that F-1s lead to reduced quality genetics over time. I don't share that belief for southern waters. But to avoid the possibility and have a few Fla genes I would add a few Flas. Not many but about 15%. If they spawn with Flas you retain pure Fla genes, if they spawn with F-1s you have higher % Fla gene crosses and if they spawn with northerns then you have more F-1s. Same concept with northerns and F-1s. You can then manage from there by harvest and adding new genes if needed.

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Regarding catchability, if you plan to fish pretty hard you might be better off stocking different LMB different years. LMB, especially Fla LMB, rapidly adapt to fishing pressure by becoming very difficult to catch. So do their progeny via epigenetic effects.

Stocking some naive LMB every year helps combat this process, as does emphasizing northern genetics.


7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Pond Boss Mag Sept-Oct 2018 - you need to get it !!!

THE CUTTING EDGE – SCIENCE REVIEW

Largemouth Bass genetic sub-species questions


……..

Another type of question relates to the mixing of Florida (FLMB) and Northern (NLMB) Largemouth Bass genes and how they relate to the catchability problem noted above.
Another recent study titled Subspecies Composition of Angled and Electrofished Largemouth Bass in Texas Reservoirs, Dijar J. Lutz-Carrillo, and Spencer Dumont in Proceedings of the Annual Conference of the Southeast Association of Fish and Wildlife. Agencies 66:75–81, 2012 Proc.., addresses in part this type of question.

The study’s results provide biologists with a provocative concept that, in southern waters (natural integrated zone of FLMB and NLMB), FLMB likely are more difficult to angle than NLMB, but the phenotype (genetic trait) of reduced angler susceptibility (catchability) is mitigated (reduced) by introgression (genetic mixing), even at low levels of NLMB genes.

Even when there were roughly twice as many NLMB in the survey as FLMB the cross population showed almost 50% Florida genetics. In one instance where there was roughly 15 times the number of NLMB as FLMB the cross population showed 29% Florida genetics. The number of crosses in the tests far outnumbered either FLMB or NLMB. So under these conditions in Texas waters over time the FLMB genetics tend to dominate. This does not mean every FLMB trait is dominant. Note that when pure FLMB were removed from the dataset numbers (leaving only crosses with high levels of FLMB genetic influence) the trait of reduced catchability greatly dissipated. Stated differently the addition of only a small amount of NLMB genetics caused poor catchability to become much less pronounced.
In addition I recall TPWD data also showing many of the share-a-lunker fish were high FLMB percentage crosses. So at low rates the NLMB genes don’t seem to reduce growth and size in the crosses.
















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Eric, pardon my stupidity, but I thought the F1's did not grow to the size of a pure Florida. I think today, the share a lunker program is taking smaller lmb than they used to take for spawning out. But, I am not sure it is because of the lack of pure FLMB being caught.


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A couple of points.

Only female Fla LMB are big. Males are small and smaller than northerns.

There is not a lot of difference in size between female F-1s (F-Xs) and female Fla LMB. Hatchery F-1s (from good hatcheries) are from female Fla LMB selected for size and aggressive male Northerns selected for aggressiveness and size. The F-1 in that case has both parents selected for large size. The normal Fla female is not selected for size but may have the gene.

In addition IMO 90% of growth (large size) is based on access to lots of food of the right size and good growing conditions. Only part is due to genetics. To have a really big fish you need the genes and food and conditions.

Studies and unpublished evidence indicates that female LMB with high % Fla genes and a small amount of northern genes (F-X) can be just as large as a Fla female and not exhibit reduced catchability (same catchability as a northern). That is the exact reason hatcheries started creating F-1s. It is believed that the one time world record LMB (22 lbs from Fla/GA) was an F-X as they are common in that water body.

Unpublished data (not new but years old) from TPWD but included in published in a peer reviewed study based on scientist to scientist discussion indicates that some of the fish submitted to TPWD for inclusion (very large LMB) were F-X LMB with high % Fla genes.

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All of my lmb were pure Florida. Am I in trouble as far as catching them? At least at this point I have had no problems catching them in the area where the feeder goes off and they are hunting cnbg. But, I have NOT tried to catch them in any other areas of my 2 acre pond.


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Thanks Eric for your answer to my question. My thinking was the pure Florida grew larger than an F1 lmb. But I forgot about the old lmb record fish being part Fla and part native or northern.

Now, in my pond I went with Overton's Camalot Bell lmb, and with some of Todd Overton's Lonestar legacy lmb the following spring and then we added another strain of Florida lmb the next spring and then last spring we added pure northern lmb for creating my own F 1's next spring. The reason for all of this stocking was due to low catch rates but in all honesty the catch rates may have been due to the pure FLMB or due to high forage numbers. Catch rates have improved this past year. And most all of the RW's are pretty high on the lmb. The female RW's are way higher than the suspected males that are caught. I have seen RW's run 30% to 80% recently when weighing the 14.5" to the 17.5" ones we think are females. And today the forage count continues to remain high in the size the lmb need or the RW would be much lower, I would think. So, next spring we hope to see how the pure northern will influence the spawn with the FLMB producing our first F1 lmb.


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Tracy I think you have a good plan and with a very thoughtful and well analyzed approach. It will be fun to see how it unfolds !

Flame if it gets to be a problem it can be fixed/reduced through management.
















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Our new 2 acre tank outside of Eastland (mid west/northern TX) filled for the first time (overflowed several times since!) and was stocked in late October with 400 BG, 100 HBG, 200 RSF 100 CC and 13# of fat heads. All from the Stock My Pond guys that stopped at the feed store. Do I need more? Arms hatchery is not far from here but only carries native LMB. Is it worth a drive to Overton's to stock F1s or FLMB instead of natives? Does Stock My Pond carry good genetics of LMB? I am thinking only 50 of whatever to get started. When do I add them? This all new to me and I'm just trying to get it as right as I can!

On another matter, I have a 2+ acre sediment/wetland area. Most of it has a foot of water. We dug a 30x80ft area 4 ft deep sediment trap. The area is chock full of mosquitoes. Thinking of adding 5# fat heads and 50 BG. It overflows a road in really high flow and through small culvert into the main tank. Gams are hard to come by. During drought it will go dry but can be seined. Thoughts?

Thanks - CB


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Tracy, from what I've read the Fla LMB tend to outcompete N LMB over time. I've done the same as you, added N LMB in the 1 to 1.5 lb range, and been very happy with catch rates and RW since then. Still would like to add F1 from different source if I can harvest enough LMB and encourage forage to support.


7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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YOY fish of most types will eat mosquito larva, fatheads would work just as well as gams. And if I were you, I'd go with F1 bass from a good source like Bob Lusk or Overtons.


7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Shortcut, welcome to PB. Refreshing to hear of a water hole that is called a tank. I have no idea whether Arms has "good" fish. Just about all Fish trucks come from Arkansas hatcheries.

What are your goals? If you are looking for a bass pond, you are woefully understocked on BG.


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Thanks Dave! Well, when we bought the land two years ago I just wanted a 1/2ac stock tank with some catfish and "perch" in a spot I saw had some waterflow. The NRCS came out and said we actually have a valley with 1100ac of watershed. The valley was actually a 75yr old shallow tank that had filled in with 4-5ft of soil. Two tanks are upstream of ours that catch silt and water before getting to us. After attending one of Bob's meetings everything changed and is still evolving. The tank budget had to be more than tripled to get what we have. We already learned it needs to be expanded! Fortunately there is a great existing rock spillway.
I realize to have a trophy bass pond I just do not have the funds. My goal now is to simply have a very healthy diverse pond that I may add a feeder to and catch some nice fish. I knew what was stocked in Oct wasn't enough but would be a solid start. Hopefully better than nothing.
Since it is all new and our location can be hit by drought...do you think another 400 BG in the main tank would be enough or still too little? LMB can wait as long as necessary! The 2+ac wetland will go dry at some point. Should I stick with FH in there or also add BG and move them all over when the water is dangerously low? I would like to add something to the wetland next week. The mosquitos are insane!

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/27/19 12:04 PM. Reason: added bold emphasis

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Wow Ewest! You've got me thinking a lot! I don't know what I have...I bought ten fingerlings (age unknown) on Ebay from a guy with an aquarium in California, he fed them little red live worms...I have eight left...some eat feed! They seem to be adequately aggressive and after sixteen months the ones biting lure or live bluegill are running 16 to 17 inches and (not weighed) they look fat and happy. I do want to make the long road trip from San Antonio to Overtons to get some F1.


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Looking in my rear view mirror here.

Shortcut, I bought my first fish from Harrel Arms over 30 years ago. He was a character and was Bob Lusk's first boss when Bob graduated from TAMU. He gave away a booklet titled everything I know about catching fish. It was filled with blank pages. Yessir, he was a character.

In those days I only had a 1/4 acre(after good rains) water hole and a seasonal creek on the new place I bought. Arms was the only fish seller around that I could find. So, I bought about 10 pounds of fathead minnows, 1,000 baby bluegills, 100 catfish, a couple hundred redears, a couple of bags of fish food and 100 1 inch bass. In a couple of years I got a drought and a heckuva O2 shortage and a massive die off. It was a stinking mess. I ran into Harrell about a year later and asked why he sold me too many fish. He told me that I didn't have sense enough to ask for his advice but just told him what I wanted. He was right and I got an expensive smelly mess.

Lesson learned. What lesson? Stock for what your pond/tank carries in August after the summer droughts and evaporation. West Texas summer sunshine is not user friendly.

Last edited by Dave Davidson1; 01/26/19 07:36 AM.

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Dave, that is exactly the advice I needed! We will add some more forage and hold off on bass until next spring. Likely 50-100 F1s from Overton.


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ShortCut - For your goals I think you will be very happy with the bass from Harrel Arms Farm. These bass with abundant food will easily grow to 5 to 7 lbs which seems to fit your goals nicely. You can also check with Arms' staff as to the average top end growth of their native bass stock. Also the northern non-F1 bass will be easier to catch and catch more frequently compared to bass with Florida genetics. I think the F1 fancy bass will not grow much larger than the Arms native bass if or when each doesn't get enough of the proper food consistently. Fish growth is closely related to amount of food the fish eats.

Remember a fish grows bigger as long as it lives providing it gets abundant food. Not enough food - growth slows or even stops until the "feed bag" resumes.

Important note: a pond with mid-range size bass (2-6lb) will support more angler catch-able bass compared to the same pond skewed with more larger 6lb-10lb bass due to nature's natural carrying capacity. Plus the pond with the larger bass will usually result to fewer bass caught per angler hour of fishing primarily due to few bass present. Most every angler enjoys catching numerous 2 lb to 5 lb bass on a regular basis. Very exciting for most.

Your main management goal is to keep lots of food available for the bass and manage their numbers wisely. See this lengthy link-subject for appropriate topics to study and learn:
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=255372#Post255372

Stocking the wetland with minnows, shiners, BG, tilapia or other forage will help a lot in providing a good ample food source for what ever bass you stock. Since the wetland periodically drys this will allow you a an easy way to shift the fish combo in the wetland. It would be good if you could periodically return to this thread and give us an update to your pond's progress. Other members can learn and benefit from your pond experiences.


Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/27/19 12:05 PM.

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Bill, thank you very much! Yes, the primary goal is to enjoy the tank and bring home some food. I will definitely post updates to the forum.


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NW TX 2ac main pond fed from 1100ac watershed going through 2 2+ac sediment ponds. 1st filled 10/2018
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