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#496289 - 09/13/18 06:33 AM Adding golden shiners
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4211
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
Does anyone know a situation or stocking scenario where adding GSH would be a bad thing if you never fish with live bait? I found a small GSH below the exit pipe of my BG/LMB pond and am wondering if they made their way into the pond. This is not a certainty because the pipe is steep and has a water control box at the top. I found bullheads and gizzard shad below this pipe before (years ago) and have never seen them in the pond.

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#496294 - 09/13/18 09:49 AM Re: Adding golden shiners [Re: RAH]
dlowrance Offline


Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 856
Loc: Central IL
Based on everything I've read if you have a decent predator population they aren't likely to do anything other than provide more forage - they can get big enough to be beyond the gape of anything but the largest LMB we can grow (I'm about the same latitude as you) but it's not likely to get very many to grow that large...unless you have a TON of cover the LMB will do a good job of controlling them.

I've stocked GSH in my large pond 5 times now (fry, 250k to 500k each time) and I've rarely even seen any, much less caught one.
_________________________
Dale



"When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water." - anonymous

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#496300 - 09/13/18 11:43 AM Re: Adding golden shiners [Re: RAH]
ewest Online   content
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19488
Loc: Miss.
Originally Posted By: RAH
Does anyone know a situation or stocking scenario where adding GSH would be a bad thing if you never fish with live bait?


Yes it can happen but is rarely seen. I agree with what Dale stated above - that with proper predator involvement it should not be a problem. Have you tried a seine and or traps to see what is in the pond?


Edited by ewest (09/13/18 11:43 AM)
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#496327 - 09/13/18 06:13 PM Re: Adding golden shiners [Re: RAH]
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4211
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
I need to drop in a minnow trap, but have not done so. I do have a lot of cover in the form of lily pads. My biggest unwanted guest is a beaver that seems to be completely nocturnal.

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#496335 - 09/13/18 08:23 PM Re: Adding golden shiners [Re: RAH]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1291
Loc: NE Missouri
Only negative I致e heard of, which I致e seen here, is that they may be able to effect survival of fry. I知 wondering if they are negatively impacting my YP survival, as I知 not seeing as many YP as I used to, and not as many ribbons in the spring.
I catch larger GSH on lures all the time. I知 not putting the larger ones back. They may be too big for my SMB and HSB. Thousands surface and go after Optima when I feed.
_________________________
4 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

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#496337 - 09/13/18 10:37 PM Re: Adding golden shiners [Re: RAH]
Shorty Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/28/05
Posts: 4197
Loc: Raymond, NE
I have seen low recruitment of SMB and YP in my pond with the presence of GSH, recruitment of RES has not been an issue which I find odd, no real explanation for it. I initially stocked 70 SMB in my 1/4 acre pond with a goal of being predator heavy and the had an unexpected SMB spawn shortly after stocking. This far down the road I am worried I don't have enough predators in the pond to keep the GSH under control. I have removed 106 large GSH in the last 2-1/2 weeks and will continue thinning them down this fall.


Edited by Shorty (09/14/18 06:09 AM)
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#496339 - 09/14/18 12:19 AM Re: Adding golden shiners [Re: Shorty]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5086
Loc: SE Kansas
Unfortunately Shorty I may be following in your footsteps. I was advised against stocking GSH and I did not listen. Like you, in my forage pond I did not see where the GSH caused problems with the RES. The RES reproduced and created lots of fingerlings in the presence of large numbers of GSH.

I hope they do not cause me problems later in my RES/SMB pond. I will not add any more. The ones stocked so far will either take and get established or not.
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John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

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#496340 - 09/14/18 01:55 AM Re: Adding golden shiners [Re: RAH]
teehjaeh57 Offline
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent
Lunker

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 7877
Loc: Lincoln, NE
In my experience I suspect dense GSH populations negatively affect YP populations...I'm not sure why - but I've witnessed it on my main pond fishery to the extent that I'm creating a new fishery on a 3/4 ac pond dedicated to YP and WE. Other predators [HSB, SMB, HBCP, WE] which may also be responsible for the impact on the YP population in the main pond fishery, but I found the timing of my heavy GSH stocking and corresponding immediate impact to YP angling interesting enough to mention it here. I stocked the GSH only to relieve pressure on the YP - good intentions....

IMO GSH will not negatively affect a LMB fishery - even a 14" LMB could hammer an adult GSH due to their fusiform shape and lack of spines. Rah you have nothing to be concerned about.
_________________________
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau





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#496353 - 09/14/18 09:18 AM Re: Adding golden shiners [Re: RAH]
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4211
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
Sounds like my LMB pond is good to go, but I intentionally added GSH to my YP/SMB pond along with LCS. I did want the SMB to spawn since I only added 20 to a 1 acre pond. At least these stockers should be well fed! Need to check out growth once once the water cools down. The one I caught last year had grown incredibly.

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#496358 - 09/14/18 11:33 AM Re: Adding golden shiners [Re: RAH]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1846
Loc: West Michigan
RAH can you share a location where I can locate more LCS? I don't think my stocked LCS ever pulled off a spawn and I'm not sure if the stockers are alive yet or not.

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#496360 - 09/14/18 12:50 PM Re: Adding golden shiners [Re: RAH]
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4211
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
They do not list them now, but you might contact them anyway.

http://www.zimmermansfish.com/Price.html#others

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#496363 - 09/14/18 02:05 PM Re: Adding golden shiners [Re: RAH]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1846
Loc: West Michigan
have yours done well, do you have yearly new little ones?

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#496364 - 09/14/18 02:37 PM Re: Adding golden shiners [Re: RAH]
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4211
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
I started with 12 little one's and have had dozens wash out the tube (of all sizes). This tells me there must be a lot of them in the pond.

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#496371 - 09/14/18 10:51 PM Re: Adding golden shiners [Re: RAH]
ewest Online   content
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19488
Loc: Miss.
GSH will eat eggs and small fry of most species. However most data indicate that not much will feed on YP eggs. But those YP fry are fair game for GSH or other fish. GSH if in large #s can cause problems. The additional headache is their propensity to have reproductive problems.


Edited by ewest (09/14/18 10:52 PM)
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#496382 - 09/15/18 08:39 AM Re: Adding golden shiners [Re: RAH]
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4211
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
Seems like in the pond where I added GSH, good populations of GSH, YP, and LCS are present. Just not sure if SMB have successfully spawned (or the RES). I still think I have FHM present as well, but have not really looked since last year. If the SMB turn out to be insufficient to control the other species, I may have to add some HSB. Need someone interested in fishing and keeping a log of what they catch.

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#496384 - 09/15/18 09:17 AM Re: Adding golden shiners [Re: ewest]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1291
Loc: NE Missouri
Originally Posted By: ewest
GSH will eat eggs and small fry of most species. However most data indicate that not much will feed on YP eggs. But those YP fry are fair game for GSH or other fish. GSH if in large #s can cause problems. The additional headache is their propensity to have reproductive problems.


Which ones have the reproductive problems? The YP or the GSH. I don稚 know where GSH lay eggs, but I must have a great environment for them to reproduce, because they are going gangbusters.
I知 hoping things will balance out and the SMB and my mythical HSB will get the GSH under better control. Either that or I知 going to try and source single sex LMB. I知 still not running the feeder trying to get the GSH population down a bit.
_________________________
4 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

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#496385 - 09/15/18 09:24 AM Re: Adding golden shiners [Re: RAH]
ewest Online   content
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19488
Loc: Miss.
GSH from hatcheries often develop reproductive problems and it is genetically transmitted.


Journal of Aquatic Animal Health

Volume 20, 2008 - Issue 1

Vertical Transmission of Ovipleistophora ovariae (Microspora) within the Eggs of the Golden Shiner

Nicholas B. D. Phelps & Andrew E. Goodwin

Fertilized eggs collected from broodfish infected by Ovipleistophora ovariae were tested by quantitative polymerase chain reaction (PCR) and found to be positive for the O. ovariae genome at 7.77 ラ 102 to 3.26 ラ 107 copies per microgram of host DNA. Fry hatched from these eggs contained from 1.37 ラ 102 to 9.89 ラ 106 copies of the O. ovariae genome per microgram of host DNA. Surface treatments of fertilized eggs with 150 mg formalin/L (used by farms as a fungicide) or a 1.5% solution of sodium sulfite (which removes the adhesive egg matrix) did not reduce vertical transmission to fry. Treatment of eggs with a 10% solution of bleach or a proprietary commercial DNA denaturant did not reduce the number of egg-associated copies of the O. ovariae genome. Histology of ovaries of infected fish demonstrated spores within the oocytes. However, no spores were observed by histology in positive fry hatched from infected eggs. The PCR and histological demonstration of the presence of O. ovariae spores in oocytes and fry, and the failure of strong DNA denaturants to reduce egg-associated copies, give evidence that O. ovariae is vertically transmitted within eggs.


Our demonstration of high copy numbers of the O. ovariae genome in golden shiner eggs and fry from infected broodfish shows that the parasite is vertically transmitted. Histology of ovaries sampled from broodstock showed very high densities of spores within oocytes and, together with the positive PCR results from progeny posthatch, demonstrate that the infected eggs remain viable and that the spores are incorporated into the fry. Intact spores were not detected in fry by histology, so it is likely that the spores germinate and infect host cells within the earliest phases of larval development. In an earlier report (Phelps and Goodwin 2007 Phelps, N. B. D. and Goodwin, A. E. 2007. Validation of a quantitative PCR diagnostic method for the detection of the microsporidian Ovipleistophora ovariae in cyprinid fishes. Diseases of Aquatic Organisms, 76: 215221. ), we showed that male broodfish test positive for O. ovariae by qPCR, but not by histology. This may be the result of early development of the parasite in the testes that is later arrested at a prespore stage, when the gonad begins to differentiate into a testis rather than an ovary.


Edited by ewest (09/15/18 09:31 AM)
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#496386 - 09/15/18 09:46 AM Re: Adding golden shiners [Re: ewest]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5086
Loc: SE Kansas
As I recall Eric that makes the GSH infertile after the first brood. New fry develop and can produce their first brood normally but subsequently are infertile and can not produce any more offspring.

I have thought about this and in some cases think it could be an advantage if a person is worried about GSH becoming too prolific in a pond. This limits the reproduction to first broods only.

Correct me if I am wrong because I am going from memory and that sometimes is flawed.


Edited by snrub (09/15/18 09:47 AM)
_________________________
John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

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#496387 - 09/15/18 09:49 AM Re: Adding golden shiners [Re: RAH]
ewest Online   content
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19488
Loc: Miss.
A New Microsporidian Parasite from the Golden Shiner,

Notemigonusc rysoleuca不

ROBERT C. SUMMERFELT

Cooperative Fisheries Research Laboratory and Department o! Zoology

Southern Illinois University, Carbondale, Illinois

ABSTRb匹T

A new species of microsporidian (sporozoan) parasite from the ovaries of the golden shiner

(Notemigonus crysoleucas) from southern Illinois is described. The name Plistophora ovariae

n. sp. is suggested. Fresh spores are ovoid or ellipsoid and measure 8.42 0.17 by 4.24 0.15

microns for spore length and width, respectively. The primary site of infection is in the ovary,

but the parasitei s occasionallfyo und in the liver and kidney of female fish. The parasitei s not

found in either the testis, kidney, or liver of male fish. The importance of this parasite to the

bait industry is suggesteda, s it reducesf ecundity and is suspectedo f causings terility in older

female brood fish. The parasite is of wide distribution, occurring in commercial bait hatcheries

in Missouri, Arkansas, and Kentucky, as well as in Illinois.



In addition to the fish examined from

Illinois, fish were also obtained from commercial

bait hatcheries in Missouri, Kentucky,

and Arkansas. The incidences of infection in

the three strains were 25, 38, and 33 percent,

respectively.

In July 1963 the author investigated two

ponds at the Fountain Bluff Hatchery where

spawning failures had been reported. It was

found that 5-year-old brood fish were used in

these ponds, and, whereas the seasonal average

incidence of infection (Table 1) was 45

percent from sampling of another pond, the

incidence of infection in these ponds was 65

percent.The difference between ovaries with

or without infections was striking to the unaided

eye. No eggs were found in the infected

fish from these ponds. This particular case

suggesttsh at brood fish may become sterilized

as a result of this infection.
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#496389 - 09/15/18 09:59 AM Re: Adding golden shiners [Re: ewest]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5086
Loc: SE Kansas
That sounds more like some get it, some don't.
_________________________
John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

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#496390 - 09/15/18 10:10 AM Re: Adding golden shiners [Re: RAH]
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4211
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
I just walked around the pond and don't see any curly leafed pondweed which was providing a lot of cover. Should I be seeing it this time of year or is it too early?

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#496411 - 09/15/18 03:20 PM Re: Adding golden shiners [Re: snrub]
ewest Online   content
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19488
Loc: Miss.
Originally Posted By: snrub
That sounds more like some get it, some don't.


That is why it is not a huge problem in wild populations but from hatcheries with contained and limited populations of brood fish it can genetically be in whole populations.
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#496413 - 09/15/18 03:56 PM Re: Adding golden shiners [Re: RAH]
Shorty Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/28/05
Posts: 4197
Loc: Raymond, NE
Originally Posted By: RAH
I just walked around the pond and don't see any curly leafed pondweed which was providing a lot of cover. Should I be seeing it this time of year or is it too early?


I pulled up a turion with a little bit of leaf on it from a local lake last weekend, I doubt you will be seeing any curly leaf pond weed for a while.
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#496414 - 09/15/18 03:59 PM Re: Adding golden shiners [Re: ewest]
Shorty Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/28/05
Posts: 4197
Loc: Raymond, NE
Originally Posted By: ewest
Originally Posted By: snrub
That sounds more like some get it, some don't.


That is why it is not a huge problem in wild populations but from hatcheries with contained and limited populations of brood fish it can genetically be in whole populations.


Larger, older GSH are more likely to have it than younger ones, a large portion of GSH over 6" likely have it.
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#496462 - 09/17/18 08:42 AM Re: Adding golden shiners [Re: Shorty]
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4211
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
Thanks for the info

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