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#496146 - 09/10/18 07:27 PM How much turn over is too much?
Tom M Online   content


Registered: 08/10/18
Posts: 40
Loc: Indiana
My pond is about 8500 sq ft when full with an average depth of 6 or 7 feet with a max depth of 12.5 feet. That works out to about 400K gallons give or take. At the moment I'm about 1 foot over the drain and it's dropping fast since the rain stopped.

I've got a dual rocker piston setup that I installed a few weeks ago that puts out 3.2 CFM @ 35 PSI. At depth it's a bit less than that, but not a lot.

I currently have 1 diffuser in the deep end at ~11' and the other at the shallow end at ~6' or so. With both ring diffusers more or less wide open the pressure reads about 13 PSI according to the gauge and there's a significant amount of boil. If I open one of the spare valves to lower overall pressure to 5 PSI the up-welling slows to a more sedate flow but the outflow area is still a good 20' wide.

The vendor has no idea what the diffuser lift rates are but if I assume (I know, I know) a combined lift of 3000 GPM at the lower pressure the system would cycle the total pond volume in about 2.5 hours. As a test I added some pond dye yesterday with the higher pressure and the dye was fully mixed in about an hour.

When I took temperature readings a while ago there was less than 1 degree difference top to bottom after 4 hours with the pond down about 5 feet so I know it fully mixes. I just changed things to run 6 hours now that it's full, but at the lower flow rate.

Based on what I've read I know it's not good if the total volume isn't moved in at least a day. The question I haven't seen an answer to is if one ignores the cost is there a down side to cycling at a (significantly) higher rate?

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#496170 - 09/11/18 07:33 AM Re: How much turn over is too much? [Re: Tom M]
Mike Whatley Online   content


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 437
Loc: Louisiana
Here's my take on it Tom.

Our systems are similar in turnover rate and our run times are exactly the same.

It's not an issue of how many times you excessively turn the pond over unless you experience a drastic and sudden temperature drop on the surface (cold rain for example). That sudden drop throughout once the pump comes on would be detrimental to your fish.

The biggest gain from over circulation would be in the reduction of muck as it's cycled out thru dissolved gases. The more you move it the faster it gets gone.

In summer, warm water holds less DO, so the more you can suppliment thru aeration, the better. In winter, DO isnt usually an issue as water can hold more of it unless you freeze over, then it's not so much a DO issue as it is all the other gases trapped under the ice. So you run shallow to keep a patch of ice open.

That's my understanding of it anyway.
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#496173 - 09/11/18 08:10 AM Re: How much turn over is too much? [Re: Tom M]
Tom M Online   content


Registered: 08/10/18
Posts: 40
Loc: Indiana
Thanks Mike.

From what I've been reading I don't see a down side so long as one keeps the temperature in mind. Basically, don't cook things in Summer and don't freeze things in Winter.

My pond was built in 2003 as far as I can tell and has only had a fountain for the last 15 years or so. All the water really comes from the natural water table and field runoff and when I measured depths there was probably a foot or so of muck at the bottom. With trees circling the entire pond it's had a lot of leaves fall in over the years so that combined with all the dirt from the fields has resulted in quite a buildup and I'd like to get rid of as much as possible.

The good news is that the fish have spawned year after year with very little done to the environment other than dealing with FA and the APW which showed up a few years ago. So all in all they haven't had it too bad I guess.

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#496174 - 09/11/18 08:45 AM Re: How much turn over is too much? [Re: Tom M]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 757
Loc: West Central Missouri
I do not feel that you can turn the pond over too much (after steady-state operations has been met)unless it causes super heating or cooling, as mentioned.

I have been running from 9pm to 9am, but this last weekend was so much cooler I ran 24/7 and the only thing I noticed was a slight reduction in feeding enthusiasm and the clarity dropped from 22" to 16". I had noticed earlier in the year that the fish did not feed as well with the air on, but it may have some to do with it being before 9am as well. Before the increase in runtime, the clarity was worse in the morning, but improved by a few inches by evening because the diffusers were not constantly stirring the pond up. I have heard that a pond with 24/7 aeration will clear up eventually, but mine was started in the heat of the summer and I have not seen that happen. So, the only thing that I am watching for are pros and/or cons of turning the pond over up to 8.5 times a day, per my estimates.

A few things that I think about that relate to running the aeration more than a few turnovers a day are...

1.) What does the muddier water do to the pond? Muddy ponds tend to have less colorful fish. Feeding seems to be less aggressive. Everyone likes a clear pond, but clear water has it's problems too, usually related to fertility. I think a muddier pond acts like dye and should reduce FA and deeper plant life.

2.) I can't help but think that the DO2 is maximized the more the pond is turned over and I do not think that I am reaching saturation only running 12 hours a night, if saturation is even possible.

The nice thing about having some "extra" turnover power is that I can turn the system UP when a cold rain is coming so that it mixes as it rains rather than washing in and turning the pond over and the muddiness of the water during this time washes out the pipe above full pool carrying some sediments with it. I do not believe these concepts are real game changers, just thinking out loud so take with a table spoon of sugar.
_________________________
Fish on!,
Noel

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#496179 - 09/11/18 09:05 AM Re: How much turn over is too much? [Re: Tom M]
Tom M Online   content


Registered: 08/10/18
Posts: 40
Loc: Indiana
After the recent rains my water was like chocolate milk due to all the runoff. However when I measured yesterday I have about 16"-18" and the water now looks like a strong tea color. I'm hoping things will have a bit more transparency today.

I noticed yesterday on the drive home that with the overnight dip into the 50's some of the trees have started to change color so Fall is definitely on the way. We're supposed to get into the 80's later in the week but the nights are definitely starting to get cooler.

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#496185 - 09/11/18 12:56 PM Re: How much turn over is too much? [Re: Tom M]
DonoBBD Online   happy


Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 1936
Loc: Ontario, Canada, Eh.
Tom, have a look at the rocks along the shore line. If you see bubbles clinging to the rocks after the air has turned off you may have too much turn over. Most should be good with 12 on 12 off depending on fish load.
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7/8th of an acre, Perch only pond, Ontario, Canada.

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#496186 - 09/11/18 01:13 PM Re: How much turn over is too much? [Re: Tom M]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 757
Loc: West Central Missouri
Hey Don, while I have not seen bubbles on my rocks after aeration, does it really mean TOO MUCH aeration or just that there's been plenty and the pond is at 02 saturation?
_________________________
Fish on!,
Noel

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#496195 - 09/11/18 05:36 PM Re: How much turn over is too much? [Re: Tom M]
DonoBBD Online   happy


Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 1936
Loc: Ontario, Canada, Eh.
When I was going through this discussion with Bill he said to have a look at the rocks. As soon as I did this I could tell we were at a very high level of air in the pond water. I was told another good indication is to take a glass of the water and let it sit over night and see how many bubbles are in it.

There are so many factors like alga, plants, water temp, and number of fish or how active the fish are.
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7/8th of an acre, Perch only pond, Ontario, Canada.

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#496206 - 09/11/18 09:21 PM Re: How much turn over is too much? [Re: Tom M]
Tom M Online   content


Registered: 08/10/18
Posts: 40
Loc: Indiana
It sounds like the "Aeration for Dummies" version could be
  • Make sure you don't super-heat (controlled by monitoring water temperatures and running at night during hot weather and may need to raise diffusers to keep a bit of a thermocline)
  • Make sure you don't super-cool (controlled by monitoring water temperatures and not running diffusers too deep during Winter in order to keep a thermocline)
  • Make sure you don't over-saturate (controlled by reducing the flow rates and/or hours run if DO levels rise to observable amounts - or - use a DO meter to measure levels)
Otherwise, run at whatever rate will turnover the pond volume at least 1 time per day.

Am I missing anything?

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#496209 - 09/11/18 09:52 PM Re: How much turn over is too much? [Re: Tom M]
Mike Whatley Online   content


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 437
Loc: Louisiana
Originally Posted By: Tom M
It sounds like the "Aeration for Dummies" version could be
  • Make sure you don't super-heat (controlled by monitoring water temperatures and running at night during hot weather and may need to raise diffusers to keep a bit of a thermocline)
  • Make sure you don't super-cool (controlled by monitoring water temperatures and not running diffusers too deep during Winter in order to keep a thermocline)
  • Make sure you don't over-saturate (controlled by reducing the flow rates and/or hours run if DO levels rise to observable amounts - or - use a DO meter to measure levels)
Otherwise, run at whatever rate will turnover the pond volume at least 1 time per day.

Am I missing anything?


Nope....sounds about right....to me anyway!!
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#496211 - 09/11/18 10:08 PM Re: How much turn over is too much? [Re: Tom M]
Mike Whatley Online   content


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 437
Loc: Louisiana
When I was running bass tournaments, our live release boat was equipped with an oxygenation system (pure O2 infused thru airstones). If the O2 level got too high in the holding tanks, you would think you had no O2 at all as all the bass would be on top sucking air, just like a DO crash. I dont think it's probable that this condition could be replicated in a large BOW, but if you ever witness this condition while aerating, it could be an indicator that your turnover is too high.
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#496218 - 09/11/18 10:58 PM Re: How much turn over is too much? [Re: Tom M]
Rainman Offline
Ambassador
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Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 6959
Loc: St Louis, MO area
Quarter-Acre, there should not be any clarity change from running diffusers...You may need a bigger pan under the diffusers, less counter-weight or raise them a bit, but either way, the diffusion is lifting sediments it should not be. I have had several diffusers that people home built that bored holes deep into the sediments and muddied things badly. Most are discovered when called to clear a muddy pond...Often, diffusers have too much weight and sink into sediments or tip over, or get dropped into the water upside down too


Edited by Rainman (09/11/18 11:02 PM)
_________________________
Rainman

www.TilapiaStockers.com


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#496293 - 09/13/18 09:10 AM Re: How much turn over is too much? [Re: Tom M]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 757
Loc: West Central Missouri
I'm not sure what to think of this. My diffusers are home-made with about 25 pounds of concrete as a base (12x12x5 approx.) and the diffuser are about 20 inches off the bottom. I have always kicked up sediments and muddied the water a little bit, the air only ran at night and would be less clear in the morning compared to the evening. Aeration was put in during early/mid summer. I will check this weekend and see if any of the diffusers have fallen over and contemplate adding pans and/or elevating them more.

I have always told myself that the more turbid water was "natural dye". Hmmm, I hate to loose that, but clearer water would be nice!





Attachments
D bases.jpg (101 downloads)

_________________________
Fish on!,
Noel

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#496295 - 09/13/18 09:58 AM Re: How much turn over is too much? [Re: Tom M]
Tom M Online   content


Registered: 08/10/18
Posts: 40
Loc: Indiana
I have my diffusers a bit off the bottom on weighted milk crates with no bottom plate so they do pull water from below. I initially had some discoloration from muck being sucked up by the plume but it wasn't too bad. That didn't last too long though and the water is no longer discolored so I think I'm good on that point.

I changed the timing on my setup a bit last night by adding a 2nd timer - actually a power strip with a built-in timer. It has 4 timed outlet and 4 always on. I now have the fountain turn off at dusk and back on at dawn. The diffusers run for 6 hours stating at 1 am and use all the air so I'll keep an eye out for bubbles on the rocks and cut it back if I see any.

My water is essentially clear at this point but it has the color of tea. I'm guessing it's from the tannin due to all the leaves collected over the years along with the field runoff. Would love to come up with a cost effective way to deal with it.

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#496303 - 09/13/18 12:21 PM Re: How much turn over is too much? [Re: Tom M]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1846
Loc: West Michigan
cost effective way to deal with getting the leaves out of the pond and keeping new leaves from falling into the pond?

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#496305 - 09/13/18 12:41 PM Re: How much turn over is too much? [Re: canyoncreek]
Tom M Online   content


Registered: 08/10/18
Posts: 40
Loc: Indiana
Originally Posted By: canyoncreek
cost effective way to deal with getting the leaves out of the pond and keeping new leaves from falling into the pond?

Sorry, meant dealing with the tea colored water after the fact so to speak.

Keeping them out is laborious but doable while they fall so long as they don't sink too fast. If they sink and stay near the edge I can also use the pond rake. However I think a lot of the coloration also comes from the field runoff so can't do too much about that.


Edited by Tom M (09/13/18 12:41 PM)

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#496306 - 09/13/18 12:53 PM Re: How much turn over is too much? [Re: Tom M]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1846
Loc: West Michigan
Ok, yes, I have tea colored water which is clearly from the leaves that fall in and not from ground water or runoff. My pond is small so I can rake as far as I can reach all the way around.

It bothers me to see hundreds of pounds of leaves fall in to the pond every fall but like you said, unless you are out there with a bit skimmer rope or net pulling them out every day, it is hard to keep up. When it is windy they tend to group up on one side or the other so I could probably use a seine net on weekends to get some out, but I just tend to let them sink

Since we have oaks, all winter we get more in the water and on the ice. Every spring I have a huge mat of black stinky algae and leaves out to about 4' deep all the way around. I rake it up on shore and let it dry and then fork the stinking wet nasty stuff into a wagon and haul it in the woods.

I can't rake it all as the leaves float and move around while raking. But getting the majority out helps and I was thinking last night while feeding that I can't see any leaves at all in the shallows. Nice sandy bottom. I think my crayfish may be helping consume the decaying leaves and my aeration hopefully is helping as well.

However if I pull up the aerator the deep water certainly still has a layer of dead, black, nasty leaves yet.

So raking may be well worth it. I made my own cement weights by pouring some rapid setting concrete in small clear 6 oz plastic cups (about 1/3 full) and then ripped open the cups when hard. I put pieces of wire in the cement while hardening and use the wire like twisty ties to tie to the top of my rake. I have a rope on the rake and throw it out about 6 feet into the pond, let it sink and pull it in to rake.

I'm curious how field runoff has tannins in it but maybe the leaves sitting in the field also stain the runoff water?

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#496307 - 09/13/18 01:14 PM Re: How much turn over is too much? [Re: Quarter Acre]
DonoBBD Online   happy


Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 1936
Loc: Ontario, Canada, Eh.
Originally Posted By: Quarter Acre
I'm not sure what to think of this. My diffusers are home-made with about 25 pounds of concrete as a base (12x12x5 approx.) and the diffuser are about 20 inches off the bottom. I have always kicked up sediments and muddied the water a little bit, the air only ran at night and would be less clear in the morning compared to the evening. Aeration was put in during early/mid summer. I will check this weekend and see if any of the diffusers have fallen over and contemplate adding pans and/or elevating them more.

I have always told myself that the more turbid water was "natural dye". Hmmm, I hate to loose that, but clearer water would be nice!





I put an extension on our air stations this summer too and the water cleared up in a week. It still will go cloudy after a rain but it is starting to clear up from what it was. I always thought it was plankton but now thinking it is more like clay particulates in the water.

Cheers Don.
_________________________

http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4


7/8th of an acre, Perch only pond, Ontario, Canada.

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#496308 - 09/13/18 01:21 PM Re: How much turn over is too much? [Re: Tom M]
Tom M Online   content


Registered: 08/10/18
Posts: 40
Loc: Indiana
The fields around us rotate between corn and soybean and at the end of each season they till under the remains. The water coming in from these looks pretty good but before the level rose the water was a more normal green color. So either the sides of the pond with all the old matter colored the new water or the field water has a bit of color to it already in addition to all the mud that comes in with it. Possibly a combination of the two.

Right after the rains the water was definitely muddy and looked like coffee with milk in it. However that condition was gone in a couple of days and replaced by the tea coloration. The upper 4 feet of the pond had very little in the way of leaves except on the one end. I removed all that (filled a 30 gal trash can) while the water was down so far and things were dry.

Things will eventually clear some more but it may be Spring before it does. Perhaps the aeration will help speed up the process but I really don't know as I've only had it installed about a month.

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#496310 - 09/13/18 01:29 PM Re: How much turn over is too much? [Re: Tom M]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1846
Loc: West Michigan
Dono, I love the picture of the cement base on the diffuser. I may have to raise mine up again, but problem or me is that when water is lower in summer (when I need the aeration) the diffusers are already at maybe 7' or 8' depth. The deeper depth gives better movement of water and if I raise it up to 5' to avoid stirring up the bottom then I lose some action of the aeration.

Tom, it doesn't sound like you get enough leaves to blame tannins for your water color. The coffee with milk color is mud/suspended clay. The left over 'green' probably was a bloom or plankton which is healthy.

The way to tell tea color origin is to put in clear jar in the dark for a few days. tannins will not settle and water will stay tea colored.

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#496311 - 09/13/18 01:32 PM Re: How much turn over is too much? [Re: Tom M]
Mike Whatley Online   content


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 437
Loc: Louisiana
Originally Posted By: Tom M
I have my diffusers a bit off the bottom on weighted milk crates with no bottom plate so they do pull water from below. I initially had some discoloration from muck being sucked up by the plume but it wasn't too bad. That didn't last too long though and the water is no longer discolored so I think I'm good on that point.

I changed the timing on my setup a bit last night by adding a 2nd timer - actually a power strip with a built-in timer. It has 4 timed outlet and 4 always on. I now have the fountain turn off at dusk and back on at dawn. The diffusers run for 6 hours stating at 1 am and use all the air so I'll keep an eye out for bubbles on the rocks and cut it back if I see any.

My water is essentially clear at this point but it has the color of tea. I'm guessing it's from the tannin due to all the leaves collected over the years along with the field runoff. Would love to come up with a cost effective way to deal with it.


My setup is almost identical to yours, but I'm two crates high under the diffuser with no plate, so I'm 22" off the bottom. After a 6 hour run, like QA, my water is slightly murky, but still 16" minimum visibility which clears more by afternoon.

I used to have tannic colored water, but now, even after a week of rain, it stays olive green and the minimum visibility doesn't change.
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#496313 - 09/13/18 02:06 PM Re: How much turn over is too much? [Re: Tom M]
Tom M Online   content


Registered: 08/10/18
Posts: 40
Loc: Indiana
Good to know that Mike.

The diffuser in the deep end is 2 crates high and the one in the shallow end is a single crate. No longer get anything stirred up and even with the brown water I have 16"-18" of visibility at the dock in the late afternoon based on my DIY secchi disk. Since the fish don't tend to be white anything beyond 8"-10" is very hard to see due to the decreased light penetration.

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#496315 - 09/13/18 02:18 PM Re: How much turn over is too much? [Re: Tom M]
Mike Whatley Online   content


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 437
Loc: Louisiana
I've noticed now that I've got a few weeks running time on my system the murkiness is gradually getting better. Hopefully by fall my overall visibility will start getting better so as I switch to daytime running the clarity won't contribute to deep grass growth. I dont mind it around the edges, but I want the bottom to stay clear.
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#496316 - 09/13/18 02:46 PM Re: How much turn over is too much? [Re: Tom M]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 757
Loc: West Central Missouri
I do not think I'm going to sweat the stirring of the sediments just yet. I am more concerned about the diffuser eroding a hole in the bottom of the pond and possibly finding a gravel vein. That would make me cry.
_________________________
Fish on!,
Noel

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#496318 - 09/13/18 04:02 PM Re: How much turn over is too much? [Re: Tom M]
Mike Whatley Online   content


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 437
Loc: Louisiana
I can't imagine that being a problem Noel, since your diffusers are elevated. If anything, I would suspect just the opposite would happen if anything. Now, if they were sitting right on bottom...possible, but in all my reading I've never came across that. Sinking into the bottom sediment in older ponds....yes.

It would be a major source of frustration to have your aerator drill a drain hole in the bottom of the pond, tho.
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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