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#495333 - 08/25/18 04:33 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Vortex 4 Offline


Registered: 11/28/16
Posts: 90
Loc: Texas
QA's simple question is a good one. How much "nutrients" am I removing? This is sort of like trying to generate a nutrition label for the plant you are removing. No idea how to do this in practice although green leaves usually suck up nitrogen. Roots and fruits need more phosphate.

I'm guessing, but there is probably one nutrient limiting the growth of the plant you are trying to slow down (photoplankton?)

Reading, mostly here, it seems that phosphates are assumed to be the limiting factor. If you wanted to slow your lawn you would probably focus on nitrogen.

I have no idea how to reduce phosphorus availability although adding lime makes it more available.

I'll bet a guru knows of something that binds with phosphates and either precipitates them out or reduces their bioavailabilty. Just need the right guru to scan this thread.
_________________________
3+ acre pond 32 ft deep within East Texas (Livingston) timber ranch. Filled (to the top of an almost finished dam) by Hurricane Harvey 9/17. Stocked with FHM, CNBG, RES 10/17. Added 35lbs RSC 3/18. 400 N LMB fingerlings 6/18

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#495334 - 08/25/18 05:31 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Vortex 4]
Kelly Duffie Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 1478
Loc: Cypress, TX (Helena A-E LLC))
Aluminum sulfate will bind P, as will lanthanum (a rare earth element found in PHOSLOCK).

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#495336 - 08/25/18 09:02 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
PaPond Offline
Member

Registered: 08/29/04
Posts: 177
Loc: Northern Wayne County, Pennsyl...
I took a WH plant from the pond today and placed it in a tared pie tin to dry out in the greenhouse while I am away for a few days.

When I get back I will fire up the Big Green Egg to 250 and completely dry the plant and re-weigh it.

I'll post the results here and maybe some of the experts can shed some light on just how much nutrient they pull from a pond. (If they are physically removed before they die off)
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#495355 - 08/26/18 08:51 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2479
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
I tried microorganisms to eat up the excess nutrients and that turned out not so good, I think. I wound up using Alum Sulfate as Mr Duffy explained to tie up the excess phosphates and drop them out to the bottom of the pond. Worked pretty good. My excess green water with about 9 to 10" of visibility cleared up to around 36" for a few days to where it is now around 24" during the summer months. I have been trying to get some beneficial plants going in the pond for the past three years. For what ever the reason is, it's been hard to get plants established.
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

Tracy

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#495434 - 08/27/18 12:35 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 841
Loc: West Central Missouri
If one would take "X" amount of Aluminum sulfate (or lanthanum), enough to clear the water, let's say, by 24"...How many pounds of Hyacinth plants would do the same thing? I will likely try the hyacinth plants just because I like plants, but it would be nice to know how many would actually make a difference. My goal is to improve clarity so that I can get away from the 18 to 24" visibility. I believe this range is close to a point that problems may occur so taking the clarity to 36" improves my ponds aesthetics, leaves plenty of nutrients for a healthy pond, and reduces the risk of a large bloom die-off/D02 crash.

[quote=anthropic]Water hyacinths increase water evaporation and water temps, though they do furnish good cover for YOY fish.[quote]

Anthropic, how would the Hyacinth plants increase pond water temps? I would have guessed the opposite.

And does the seed germination aspects you speak of apply to areas well outside the red zones on the USGS map posted earlier?

PS: PaPond - I look forward to your test results...Thanks!


_________________________
Fish on!,
Noel

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#495486 - 08/28/18 07:43 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2479
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
Here in E Texas and N. La American pondweed seems to reduce nutrients and help to clear up the water from what I have seen. But as I understand it, it can be invasive in certain parts of the country or if the pond is more shallow than deep. For me, I would much prefer the pondweed over the Hyacinth. And every time I hear Bob Lusk mention good plants he talks about American pondweed.
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

Tracy

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#495625 - 08/30/18 10:54 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 841
Loc: West Central Missouri
I am sure pond weed has its place and I can appreciate it in a larger BOW especially wrt boat fishing. But, not being botanically minded, how would APW reduce the nutrient levels unless you physically removed the dead and dying submerged plants at the end of the growing season? I would prefer not to go swimming and raking in the fall. The hyacinths would appear to be more easily removed periodically.
_________________________
Fish on!,
Noel

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#495630 - 08/30/18 12:36 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Journeyman Offline


Registered: 08/10/17
Posts: 13
Loc: wisconsin
QA,

Have you considered 'for every action there is a reaction' and what that might be?

Your visibility problem may not be so bad. It sounds like you want your pond to look more like mine, and I, yours. My pond, I can see bottom in six feet of water. The problem - seaweed is thriving in depths past ten feet deep and mats are forming on the surface. The plants keep the water clear, so much so that, an algae bloom cannot get going which would help to block light that would otherwise keep the seaweed problem at bay.

I'm working to reduce nutrient levels as well, but at the bottom layer, a couple treatments of beneficial bacteria pellets (Muck Away)so far this summer to help reverse decades of partially decaying organic matter. The goal for me, to slow down the seaweed and to get an algae bloom (like yours) to block the light from reaching the bottom to keep it that way.

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#495642 - 08/30/18 02:59 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 841
Loc: West Central Missouri
Journey, You and I are definitely trying to meet somewhere better in between. Everyone wants a clear pond until they realize that there can be unpleasant consequences. I am basing my concerns on two "rules of thumb" (and my tendency to worry a bit too much). I have read/heard that a consistent 18 inches of clarity can be considered to be on that fine line between a healthy nutrient laden pond and the potential for a algae bloom die-off/02 crash. I have also gathered that water temps near the 85 degree mark are also considered "fine line" with respect to fish/pond health.

I would like to back off that fine line to a place where clarity is more like a consistent 24 inches with temps around 80 instead of 18" and 85 degrees F. Nutrient absorbing plants to help clarity and (maybe???) to create shade to help keep temps lower seems like a nice direction to explore. I would still like to hear about how hyacinths (or any type of plant) can increase temps.

Originally Posted By: Journeyman
Have you considered 'for every action there is a reaction' and what that might be?


With the theoretical benefits of the hyacinths, should the pond get too clear, I would think that removing the plants would allow for the pond to revert back. My biggest obstacle, at this point, is how many sqft of plants to start with and is that amount more than I care to deal with.

This exercise may be impossible because I, personally, am starting this quest with little to no intellect on the subjects of biology and botany. I know the watershed is cattle pasture that gets moderately fertilized once yearly and that the pond gets a lot of flow during the rainy seasons (fall, winter, & especially spring) under normal rainfalls. It tends to start the year off pretty clear (36") and then turns shades of green and brown as summer endures (18"). My logic tells me that the water should clear up as summer fades due to the lack of nutrients being introduced (from the lack of rain run-off) and the growth of vegetation along the shore and algae blooms soaking up nutrients, but it just stays around the 18" mark with the exception of an early bloom that results in a crazy green colored water early.
_________________________
Fish on!,
Noel

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#496098 - 09/09/18 08:40 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
PaPond Offline
Member

Registered: 08/29/04
Posts: 177
Loc: Northern Wayne County, Pennsyl...
I weighed up the dehydrated hyacinth I grew in my pond.

Water hyacinth placed in a tared pan straight from pond, water shaken off. Plant start weight 266 grams

After drying out in the greenhouse I placed it in my Big Green Egg at 250 for 2 hours and the resultant dehydrated plant material weighed 11 grams

End result the plant was 95.87% water.

I sectioned off my plant ring (6' diameter) and counted the plants (one stem per plant) to figure out the total number of plants in 1/4 of the ring. Plant count was 87 plants. Figuring each plant (very similar in size) has a dry weight of 11 grams that's 348 plants times 11 grams = 3,828 grams, or 8.4 pounds of dehydrated biomass that won't settle into the bottom of the pond this winter.

Is it worth doing this, I think so, other more scientific opinions?


Edited by PaPond (09/09/18 08:42 PM)
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