Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Northern MI Bass Bluegill Pond Questions...

Ok, I have an 1.5 acre newly dug pond and have been researching like crazy. Read multiple pond books,(including Bob's) youtube videos, forum posts, and fish biologist studies. I am getting lots of conflicting information on largemouth bass and bluegills in northern ponds. Some say dont do it, some say do, some say stock bluegill first then bass the next year, others say stock bass first then bluegill...I would love to hear some opinions from the experience of this forum group to this issue. Thanks....( I am also adding bowfin to the pond because I think they are cool but that is a separate issue that real life experience on is very sparse)

I'll just start with 'what are your goals?' (i.e. big gills, big bass, fish to eat, etc, etc) It'll help focus the responses to your question.

My goals are fishing with mild harvest and observing and feeding the fish. (and of course having as many big and healthy fish as possible) Numbers of fish are secondary to size

Doc Luke is right. Define your goals.

However, stocking bass prior to forage would be like stocking cows prior to planting grass.

You are right to be confused. Northern pond stocking is vastly different in timing than southern ponds. Weather is the primary reason. Up north growth and winter starvation are major issues that southern ponds don't have. The more you move toward the middle of the US the more jumbled the concepts become because the weather is more neutral.

BG tend to stunt up north if stocked first (year ahead) and that can lead to suppression of LMB reproduction which is very bad on newly stocked ponds. Any very young (fry/yoy) stocked late in northern ponds stands a much higher chance of starvation over winter. So the growth and stocking periods up North are reduced and condensed. Feeding of course helps minimize this issue.

I have seen large differences in the suggested stocking plans all from very good/solid sources. Best advice I have seen for far north locations is stock FH first and heavily then a couple months later stock 2 in. LMB , followed by BG the next spring. I have seen the traditional FH , BG then LMB work up north as well. If I was going to use a more traditional plan I would stock FH (heavily), and 2 mths later stock 2in. LMB and 2in. BG at the same time. The key is all about the first spawn. If BG spawn the first spring following stocking and the LMB don't (LMB up N usually spawn at 2) you have set the stage for BG stunting.

Use ewest's advice, it is sound and well informationally based to provide the best results when using BG and LMB in the north. A second stocking option would be to stock, FHM, YP and smallmouth bass. When this combination is not satisfying you, you can easily stock or introduce a several BG and LMB who will then relatively quickly (few years) convert the pond to a Bass-BG dominated pond. The sequence of stocking will not work if you first start with LMB-BG.
YP and SMB should be available from Laggis Fish Farm (Gobles MI) or Imlay City Fish Farm Imlay City MI.

Thankyou for the information, Like all new pond owners, I am excited to stock everything as quick as possible and start enjoying my pond. If I wait to stock bluegill the second spring like ewest suggested will the bass just eat up most of the small bluegill that I stock (or is there a size bluegill I should stock) or will they not be big enough yet to consume them?
Also, should I feed the bass pellets the first year or just keep lots of FHM stocked? (how many pounds of FHM should I stock in a 1.5 acre pond using this strategy?)

TR889, coming in to this thread a bit late, but I also have a MI pond and would have thought that I wanted bass (LMB) in my pond, like you, but now I'm so glad I don't have them. I'm doing everything I can to not have LMB as management is infinitely more difficult once a momma and a papa LMB find each other in your pond. The challenges that northern ponds with shorter growing seasons bring and the constant worry about stunting of bass vs stunting of bluegill brings that home.

I also find after working with my pond for the past 5 years that it is such a relief to not have to worry about bluegill and bass (spawn cycles of each, timing of the spawn, how many times the BG spawn and when and then are the bluegill going to stunt or the bass etc) Hybrid bluegill can help slightly but then you deal with a future that includes green sunfish in your pond which is another management headache that I don't ever want to see happen.

So I didn't hear you say why you had to have bluegill and bass (hopefully not simply because that is what the fish stocker can sell you). If you want LMB and bluegill great, then just be very careful about stocking numbers and intervals.

I'm also a huge fan of the advice I was given to get the forage base established first. Work for a year or two without any predators and see how diverse you can get your forage base. It is fun and relaxing. Then go from there.

I'm doing the shiner/YP experiment and have only a few RES to help with snails. So far management has been pretty easy and pretty successful.

I've been able to dabble with different types of forage fish, different types of shiners, dabble with crayfish, scuds, ghost shrimp, and still have to deal with unwanted species (eurasion milfoil, giant invasive snails, and goldfish which came with the pond)

I'm happy to see all the different forage continue to build now in the 4th year with YP being my apex predator. I may be ready for a non-reproducing fish predator next year but even then I hope to see that more as a bonus fish for angling rather than really needing it for population control as things are pretty balanced right now.

In fact I wish I could get a little more RES reproduction. I'm also interesting in adding a few pumpkinseed to see how they do in the pond as well.

Our kids are happy as clams (as are the troops of neighbor kids) to catch goldfish, YP and large shiners (as opposed to bass or bluegill).

I hope my experience is helpful for you. I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.

canyoncreek, thanks for the input. For me, I want fish that interest me the most for whatever reason. I was tempted to try a bowfin and green sunfish pond for something different (love the coloration of GSF, and love catching/watching bowfin) but decided to rather go with the standard BG & LMB (and trying to work bowfin in there somehow). My post stemmed from what ewest noted also;which is the contradictions out there about stocking them together up north. Just trying to learn from others experience/mistakes so I dont have to:)

I'm interested in how you became interested in bowfin and how you source them and transport them to MI?

What will they feed off?

GSF are very pretty, aggressive eaters, and fun for folks to catch.

Not necessarily a bad fish, just hard to 'balance' with less aggressive species trying to get a foothold.

If I had a pond up north I would take Bill's advice and try FH , YP and SMB. If you are far enough south in MI for RES to survive winter then I would add a few RES to the mix.

SMB and YP just don't interest me for this pond for some reason. Probably because those are the main species in the lake I fish the most which is 5 min away.

My interest in bowfin started after sight fishing them a few years back. Strong fighters, different look, and that wavy dorsal fin. They are native to Michigan and many lakes around me have them. After they spawn and hatch, the fry balls up like bullhead do and they are easy to net by the hundreds. There is also a fish hatchery 4 hrs away that has them on their species list for sale if I fail to find some naturally.

Studies done on their diet show that they eat primarily crayfish (when present 80%), then small bluegills and such. They are also kept in aquariums quite often and will eat pellet food, so maybe I will be able to supplement their diet with pellets too.

I don't think I have seen anybody suggest putting the FHM's in a year before the game fish in this thread. Maybe this is due to our natural lack of patience or maybe it's a northern thing. I managed to put off stocking my game fish because I was having difficulty making a decision, like you, and really I just took solace in not having to pull the trigger on picking what to purchase. Let me tell you, it had a great outcome. The FHM's reproduced like wildfire and I can contribute most of this year's growth of my HSB to the massive amount of minnows. The HSB went in the pond in April (2018) at 4-6" long and 3-1/2 months later I have caught one at 11 inches and 3/4 pound and two others at a the pound mark. I feed the fish, but rarely see the HSB hitting the floating pellets. At any rate, the FHM's have a lot to do with my success this first summer.

PS: Don't forget to add some pallets for the FHM to spawn on either way you go!

Southern ponds do have longer 'growing season' so they can get more spawns per season from forage fish. Advice for southern ponds usually involves giving a spawn or two headstart for forage and then put in the bass.

But I have found (and others even in southern ponds) that no matter how patient you are and how long of a headstart you give the 'minnows' that they can disappear fast. I think my decision to have a 2 year headstart was a good decision for several reasons.

First I learned that no amount of headstart will help me establish FHM. I have pallets but not enough structure and the YP when they did go in made short work of the FHM. Now maybe if I had millions and millions we would have been OK, but once you add the hungry predators you can't ever go back and see if you can still make it work.

But with the GSH there was enough of a headstart that the largest adult GSH were big enough that nothing in the pond would eat them so now we have lots of chances for GSH reproduction. I also had a chance to try to get some other forage fish to establish (still working on other types of shiners and lake chubsuckers)

Still not sure why but crayfish don't seem to reproduce in my pond. I think the YP are helping consume all the young but also again not enough natural structure for crayfish to hide in.

But I wouldn't know all those 'balance' factors unless I had a few years to watch.

I totally understand why you would not do Yp and SMB if you catch those all the time already.

I know TJ and others are wishing they could control crayfish population, maybe they could trial Dogfish aka bowfin?

I'm also surprised that the big lakes in northern MI that are loaded with rusty crayfish don't see a big bump in bowfin population?

tr889 - Stocking densities have variables based on goals. To answer your questions of - " If I wait to stock bluegill the second spring like ewest suggested will the bass just eat up most of the small bluegill that I stock (or is there a size bluegill I should stock) or will they not be big enough yet to consume them?
Also, should I feed the bass pellets the first year or just keep lots of FHM stocked? (how many pounds of FHM should I stock in a 1.5 acre pond using this strategy?)"

ewest said above: Best advice I have seen for far north locations is stock FH first and heavily then a couple months later stock 2 in. LMB , followed by BG the next spring.

In my opinion the best advice for your stocking really depends on the specific type of fishery you want with the BG-LMB.

Bass, no matter what size, will eat any smaller fish or critter including BG if the fish fits into the bass mouth. It is always something to consider when stocking your first fish. When FHM are present the bass always first focus on eating slow moving, easy to catch FHM.

There are 3 basic types of fishery goals A. trophy BG, B. Large LMB, C. general fishing with a blend of all various sizes in a balanced or blended community. These fish can sometimes later be skewed toward one size group with good selective harvest, but this is time consuming and lots of effort. Once the fish are established - harvest sizes and harvest numbers are very important to achieving and maintaining ones fishery goals.

If you are interested in fast, first stocker bass growth, stock FHM in the spring as breeders - 10-15 lbs/ac is a good start. Then in fall (Aug-Oct2018) add young of year BG (1"-3") and LMB (usually 2"-4" maybe some 5"-6"). Bass will grow fast to 8"(2019) mostly eating the abundant small FHM. 1st fall stocking BG will not spawn in the spring when they will be 2"-3", but by late summer next year2019 you could see a few of the original BG spawn. Stocker bass could easily run out of FHM by mid or late summer2019 so I would add some larger BG this fall or early next spring as 4"-6" fish - bought or wild caught - 10-20/ac. These few larger BG will produce a spawn in the spring2019 to supplement the FHM forage base which will be quickly disappearing. This will keep bass growing well. If using pellet trained bass and feeding pellets, then keeping proper forage numbers is not as important to get good bass growth. Pellet feeding produces high quality fast growing BG.

Another workable option is to stock the BG and LMB in spring with a bunch of FHM (30-35lbs/ac). FHM spawning helps sustain the spring stocked fingerling bass. For northern fish farms, Spring2019 BG will be from prior fall leftovers and mostly 2"-3" and spring LMB could be 2" to upto 4" left overs of prior year. Both will grow together and if healthy and growing well, could likely spawn in the spring of 2020.

Numbers to stock per acre is the big variable. Again this will be somewhat dependent on what is the focus of your fishery. High quality BG, or bigger LMB, or mixed general fishing. Each type requires a somewhat different stocking density ratio. For bigger BG you want more small bass to keep BG density lower 2or3BG:1LMB ratio. For bigger bass you want higher numbers of BG or forage species 6-8BG:1 and mixed sizes somewhere in-between such as 4 or 5BG:1LMB. MI State Univ Extension suggests, for without pellet feeding, for balanced mixed sizes stock 100LMB/ac for 1yr then add 500fingerling BG/ac similar to ewest's advice.

Your LMB will not eat pellets as a high percent of individuals unless you buy them as pellet trained fish. Remember you will raise more fish and bigger fish if you feed good quality high protein pellets. Feeding pellets provides good fish growth even when forage densities are lacking. FYI I think each bowfin will take the place of one LMB of equal size so manage your bass accordingly based on predation needs. Expect each bass or bowfin to eat 200-300 fish/yr. Likely this number of fish consumed decreases as the predator size increases when the preferred food size also increases. Predator fish eat 8-10 lbs of food / year/fish when growing at their optimum rate. The bigger the predator the bigger food it eats.

Everyone should read Bill's post above. There is a lot of info there and it shows how stocking principals interact with goals.

thank you for the detailed reply Bill, sounds like solid advice. Is there anything to consider doing this fall? Or is stocking anything, like FHM just foolish? If it is an normal winter, we have ice in December.

canyoncreek---yes tons of rusty crayfish, and in two of the larger more highly vegetated floodwaters near me, bowfin made the highest weight (not necessarily numbers) in DNR trapping surveys of all the species caught. In a lake where they were the number one predator in numbers and weight, I rarely catch them when fishing for bass or pike unless I am specifically sight fish for them.

If you want to go light on harvest then please consider stocking predators of limited reproductive potential and feeding pellets.

Examples include hybrid striped bass or hybrid bluegill. I will leave recommendations of density and species combinations to the experts.

tr889 - Bill gives you fabulous advice but when I read it my head spins. So many pitfalls and so many 'what-ifs' This is where I steered clear because of the feeling that no matter what I do i would be out of balance more than in balance and I didn't have time to harvest aggressively or remove fish to try to get back in balance.

If you like LMB and bluegill then you have the info you need I would think. If you want to start things early then remember that the fish won't grow much or reproduce in the fall and winter so they just more or less occupy space all winter. However they do eat so your minnows will slowly disappear over the winter under the ice.

if you had access to other types of panfish it might be interesting to experiment with those since you like experimenting with interesting fish. If you could source pumpkinseed it would be interesting to see how they hold their own with LMB as the predator. If you can get RES I would recommend some of those as well.

Interesting that bowfin wouldn't continue to populate since they probably have no natural predators once they get a certain size and have an unlimited amount of food (rusty crays)