Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Shotgun01, Dan H, Stipker, LunkerHunt23, Jeanjules
18,451 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,900
Posts557,095
Members18,452
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,415
ewest 21,475
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,110
Who's Online Now
11 members (Sunil, jpsdad, azteca, esshup, BillyE, H20fwler, FishinRod, Augie, PRCS, LeighAnn, bstone261), 726 guests, and 281 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#494538 08/04/18 08:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 6
A
OP Offline
A
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 6
Advice please.....

I believe I have a pond that is ready for draining and a re-do but wanted to get some ideas and insight before I decide. My pond is right about 2 acres and ranges from 1-7’ deep. It is more than 50 years old and is surrounded on three sides by trees almost to the water’s edge. I fight weeds all spring/summer with mainly coontail or a similar submerged plant and then algae/moss on the surface. I have used hydrothol for the submerged and copper sulfate for the algae/moss with limited positive results. I also use dye packs to cut down on the amount of light getting to the bottom. I have succumbed to a rake and rope to manually pull the weeds as chemicals do not seem to work (the ones I have used anyways) and as I’m sure you know they are expensive. I would like to drain the pond, clean all the muck out as well as deepen, especially closer to the banks where the water is but a foot deep. I installed two aerators this year but they dont seem to have helped much.

I have a 20’ drop off the back of the dam and was considering a 4” siphon set-up to drain….thoughts?

I also thought about removing about a 10-12’ area around the pond edge of trees to cut down on leaf buildup in the future...thoughts?

Here are a few questions:

1. Does my description sound like the pond is at the drain/re-do stage?
2. Is there a best time of year to drain the pond?
3. How long must it dry/set before I can have it re-worked (I am in southern Illinois...good clay).
4. Should I keep a place or two gently sloping to a low water level for fish to spawn?

Any advice/experiencces would be greatly appreciated.

Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,424
Likes: 19
J
Offline
J
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,424
Likes: 19
I had my pond renovation done in August of 2015. There were many trees on the banks all around, down to the water. The pond is probably 60 years old. We cut the dam with an excavator one day and drained it. I pumped out down to the muck with a trash pump, and the dirt guy got his bulldozer in there the next day. He had an excavator and a medium bulldozer. He started at a corner, pushing the muck across a short chord into a hole prepared by the excavator in one corner. As the dozer worked back and forth filling the hole, the excavator would throw the muck over the dam. By working the pond the way they did, the dozer would always have undisturbed clay under the muck for traction. It took them three days to clean out and deepen my 1/4 acre pond. The bulldozer had to periodically stop cleaning the pond and push the muck pile away from the excavator.

We made a big mistake by not completely removing all the tree roots from the dam (only removed root balls with a bulldozer), and the pond leaks about an inch or so a day when near full, and stops when it gets below the roots (about 30 inches).

In hindsight, I would have been better off filling in the pond with the trees and dirt from the dam, making it part of the hayfield, and building a new pond nearby. We had to wait a year for the ugly sludge pile to dry, then paid to have it spread around.

I don't think I would renovate a pond with that many problems ever again if there was room to build another one.

Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 6
A
OP Offline
A
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 6
Thanks for the insight. Seems very close to what I was thinking of doing. I have about a 20' drop behind the dam...about 1 acre and if I cut thru the dam then the muck could be pushed back there. I could have the trees pulled down around the pond and dumped back there as well. No trees on the dam...plenty when I bought the place a decade ago but had them all pulled out (roots and all) and the dam repacked. No space to abandon and rebuild elsewhere as the remainder of my property is all old-growth trees and the pond sets about 50 yards behind my new house.

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,028
Likes: 274
D
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,028
Likes: 274
Don’t know the best time in your area. That said, the stuff in the bottom is going to be like pudding. It won’t dry quickly


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 6
A
OP Offline
A
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 6
Thanks for the reply. With the pudding like mess, do you think like John Fitzgerald mentioned in his reply that rather than waiting for it to dry, just have a dozer push it along to a bucket and then dump it over the back of the dam?

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,028
Likes: 274
D
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,028
Likes: 274
That might be like getting a bucket of water. Don’t know your land but would it be possible to break the dam and go uphill and create a new pond? Later, fix the dam and use it as a new pond with overflow from the newer one? Or even break the new dam and combine the two. Trying to clean that junk out while not getting dozers stuck is pretty tough.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,424
Likes: 19
J
Offline
J
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,424
Likes: 19
The OP said no room for a new pond.

The bulldozer pushed my sludge with no problems since he started at the edges and always had the solid clay under the sludge to get traction. On one side of the bulldozer, there would be clean clay. On the other side, a wall of sludge higher than the tracks. My dirt guy had cleaned out ponds before, and he said set up the excavator at the edge and dig a big hole to receive sludge, dip it and throw it. My sludge had the consistency and look of wet concrete with a low slump.

I don't know what else to say, except it worked very well for my clean out project. The big thing at the end of the project is get all the roots out of the dam and recompact well.

It took three days to clean out and reshape my 1/4 acre pond. For a two acre, might take 2-3 weeks.

Last edited by John Fitzgerald; 08/05/18 09:51 AM.
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,424
Likes: 19
J
Offline
J
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,424
Likes: 19
Originally Posted By: Army Colonel
Thanks for the reply. With the pudding like mess, do you think like John Fitzgerald mentioned in his reply that rather than waiting for it to dry, just have a dozer push it along to a bucket and then dump it over the back of the dam?


If the sludge is left in the basin of the pond, it will not dry out for a few years, except on top. Down a bit from the surface, it may never dry out. The only way to dry sludge is to put it on ground where it can dry by draining out the sides at the bottom of the piles of sludge. We piled our sludge on a slight slope, and it still took a year before it was spreadable. I got a very small bulldozer to spread it, as a larger one would have still sunk into the slightly wet sludge.

Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,344
Likes: 101
Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,344
Likes: 101
I have heard of de-mucking happening right after draining, like John F mentions, and often is the only way IF the dam can not be cut deep enough to allow all the water to evacuate and you have to rely on a pump to empty entirely. My 1/4 acre pond had the dam cut in early June, all but a very small portion about 10 foot diameter (5 inches deep) drained. The de-mucking occurred later that year in early October and then had the consistency of very thick pudding. It would stand at 8 feet tall as they dug into it, but if let set overnight, it would slough off and ooze around. The summer was on the dryer side that year, but not as dry as this year. It was not until mid summer the following year before the muck on the back side of the dam could be worked with a skid steer and it still pumped a lot in a few place and had to set for a week or so to continue dressing the backside where it was extra thick/deep.

My pond was originally 10 foot deep and had silted in to only 2 foot deep. It was past due for renovation. How deep is your muck? If your pond was only originally a foot deep than it is now then you have to consider your options...de-muck out a foot and be done or consider digging into the original clay bottom to make it deeper. This option is risky because you are changing the "clay bowl" that currently holds water and the new clay bowl may not.

The best time to break a dam is after the spring rains, but any other time of year can work as well. After spring helps ensure that you'll get some dry weather to follow. So much depends on the weather and your pond excavator's schedule.

Time to allow for the muck to dry before entering with equipment depends on the skill of your operators and their available equipment, and the steepness of your original clay bottom. My pond had/has very steep sides and one miss step by the track loader and it would be at the very bottom of very deep muck in no time. My dirt man thought it best to wait several months.

Having spawning areas really depends on what type of fishery you want. A self sustaining pond will need areas for spawning, but a fish farm style pond where you feed and take and replace does not want shallows specifically for spawning. For example, if you want to concentrate on Hybrid Blue gill and Hybrid striped bass. The HSB will be used for keeping your low numbers of hatched HBG to a minimum and you do not want any small mouths to feed so that you can feed the mature gills and grow them without competition from younger fishes. This scenario does not want the promotion of the spawning of the HBG. The self sustaining pond will need some spawning areas so that the regular blue gills can reproduce so that the regular bass will have something to eat. The basic difference between the two is "are you going to feed hybrids or are you going to stock the pond and let it do what it will do?". Obviously, there is a lot more to it, but hopefully I have shed some light on the topic.


Fish on!,
Noel
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 130
K
Offline
K
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 130
Sounds similar to my pond in both size and heavily treed surroundings.

I elected to redo the existing pond which was 1.5 acres only 3' deep.. I started by removing trees and brush on all sides that were within 30' of the pond edge. This was necessary and well worth it.

I had my pond drained by digging a ditch to a nearby creek. It was empty in about 2-3 days. It was drained in February and sat until late August before it was hard on the surface. I was able to walk across and even ride my atv on it..but when the heavy excavator w/ 70' boom drove out it sunk like a rock! I have pictures of it stuck. The contractor was able to put down floating pads that he could park the excavator on and work from.

There was 3' of muck before hitting clay from the years of leaves etc. They worked on it for about a week straight. Lots of muck, lots of dirt that had to be removed. Very labor intensive. Once they hit clay the dozer could get in there and work it and shape it..

End product was 2 acres w/ average of 5-6' depth, an 8' hole on the West end, and a 12' hole on the East end.

Due to the lay of my land, I believe this was the best place to have a pond so for me redoing the existing pond was worth it. I was sure to install a drain that would let me draw down the water and work on the pond if needed in the future.

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
My advice is build a new pond in a different location if that option is available. If the current pond is strategically located and the only option is cleaning it out it can be done but it likely will cost as much if not more than building an entirely new pond. I have built 4 ponds from scratch and have cleaned out and renovated three old ponds, one of my own, one for my daughter and one for a son.

Here is a link to my experience cleaning out my son's old pond. The dam had failed numerous years earlier (washed out the overflow pipe) and it was an almost dry bed when I started. Maybe it will give you some ideas or more questions to ask.

Reclaiming a 50 year old pond

If I would have had an excavator to help the dozer out the job would have been twice as easy. I have a 12 yard scraper pulled by a rubber track tractor that moves dirt very efficiently but in muck it is useless and I did not even take it to the job. I worked with what I had for equipment but in retrospect an excavator would have been really nice.

My son and his young family use the pond extensively every year since it has been cleaned out. Probably one of the best things I have done for them.

Last edited by snrub; 08/07/18 11:31 AM.

John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 7
M
Offline
M
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 7
I am going through the process of renovating a 4.4 acre pond now. I siphoned 90% of the water out over ~10 days using 4" PVC pipe. The long reach excavator and dozer came in right away. This is a big project and not for the faint of heart. But they can get in there as long as they can dig down to the hard pan, the dozer can push mud pretty well. They put a big cut in the dam and are pushing a lot of it through the cut. My pond is so big though that some of it is having to be pushed to the corners and slung over the dam with the excavator. It is not done yet, so will see how it goes, but i'm pleased with my decision so far. I toiled with this decision for a long time before pulling the trigger. I was not able to build a new pond elsewhere as this one is in the perfect location. The dam on my pond was in pretty bad shape. It will get a whole new very thick lining of clay at the end of the project. This is by no means an inexpensive project but I feel like it is doing it right by getting rid of the root of most of the problems....all that mud and nutrient in the bottom. Unbelievable amounts of mud too. 60 year old pond. Stay tuned.

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 352
G
Offline
G
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 352
Originally Posted By: MidMoAdam
I am going through the process of renovating a 4.4 acre pond now. I siphoned 90% of the water out over ~10 days using 4" PVC pipe. The long reach excavator and dozer came in right away. This is a big project and not for the faint of heart.
Sounds like an interesting project. Please post some photos, cause we love lookin' at dirty pictures!

Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,381
Likes: 46
W
Offline
W
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,381
Likes: 46
I agree with gully! I would love to see a thread on your project!


Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
Bob Lusk, GaryK, GrizzFan, PhotographerDave
Recent Posts
Relative weight charts in Excel ? Calculations?
by jpsdad - 03/28/24 04:51 PM
1 year after stocking question
by esshup - 03/28/24 04:48 PM
Fungus infection on fish
by BillyE - 03/28/24 04:35 PM
Yellow Perch Spawn 2024
by H20fwler - 03/28/24 04:29 PM
Alum vs Bentonite/Lathanum for Phosphorus Removal?
by FishinRod - 03/28/24 04:23 PM
Working on a .5acre disaster, I mean pond.
by PRCS - 03/28/24 04:13 PM
New 2 acre pond stocking plan
by LANGSTER - 03/28/24 03:49 PM
Happy Birthday Bob Lusk!!
by ewest - 03/28/24 03:37 PM
Paper-shell crayfish and Japanese snails
by esshup - 03/28/24 10:39 AM
Brooder Shiners and Fry, What to do??
by Freg - 03/28/24 09:42 AM
Dewatering bags seeded to form berms?
by Justin W - 03/28/24 08:19 AM
Reducing fish biomass
by FishinRod - 03/28/24 08:18 AM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5