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#492555 06/23/18 11:09 PM
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Im confused...again.

How do I know a certain diffuser will give me the lift I need to be able to give my pond the "once in 24 hour" turnover I'm supposed to be shooting for. I know smaller bubbles create more lift, but my pond is only 1 ac/ft and 326k gallons. I don't think I necessarily need a high dollar diffuser to turn my pond over once a day

Is there a formula a redneck country bumpkin like me can understand to know if what I'm installing (whatever that may be) will be sufficient for my pond's needs?

Last edited by Mike Whatley; 06/23/18 11:13 PM.

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I don't know, but I am going to find out. I just figured my gallons assuming an average depth of 6ft I came up with 2.9M gallons. So I need to know the same thing you do. I am glad I read your post though. I did not know you were supposed to turn the pond over every 24 hours. So If I only run it at night, am I supposed to turn it over in 12 hours? Sounds expensive...

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That's what I've read from several posts here, so that's what I'm going with.

Yes, if you only plan to run overnight, the system should be able to provide enough lift to completely cycle the water in the time frame your running...my understanding anyway. I just don't know how you can be sure it's getting a full cycle. I've read where ponds can still experience fish kills with aeration and I have to assume it's because the system isn't moving enough water.

To get the most lift you need a diffuser that makes millions of tiny bubbles, that makes sense, but how do you know if you've got enough air volume to get a full cycle? And if you use a diffuser that produces larger bubbles, such as air stones, how much more volume do you need to get the same O2 production?

Maybe I'm over thinking it. Hopefully someone can put us on the right path.


.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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It's also very important to go thru a startup procedure with a pond that's never had aeration. You need to start with 15 minute runs each day. When you no longer smell gases from the bottom, you double that time (30 minutes) until you no longer smell gases, then double again (1 hr)...so forth and so on until you can run for hours and not smell the toxins. Wasn't sure you had picked up on that in your research. Thought I'd pass it on.


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Calculating lift is not simple and it has numerous variables. Volume of lift will also be affected by water depth, surface area of bubble production, and size of bubbles. Very few brands of diffusers have actually been volume tested.
Depth - the further the water moves toward the surface the size or area of the surface plume increases as more water gets in-trained or incorporated into the plume. I have always considered, right or wrong, at about 15ft depth the area of the original bubble production area is around double the initial pattern.
Bubble Size - Standard original bubble size is 1mm. As bubbles rise they also "grow" larger due to less air pressure at top compared to where they were produced deep. Increased pressure at the diffuser can cause bubbles to be larger especially in rubber or flexable diffuser 'skins'. Keep in mind that bubbles too small will tend to clog quicker and easier.
Surface Area of Diffuser - generally the bigger this diffuser surface area is, assuming the whole surface is covered in bubbles, the larger the final boil area. Different styles of diffusers produce different sizes of bubbles depending on style, water depth, and air pressure.

Rather than get into involved volume calculations just go to the Vertex website and look at their volume rating chart. This will give you a general or ball park idea of water volume moved by single 9" or multiple 9" diameter membrane diffusers for different water depths. Vertex has designed their brand of diffuser and actually volume tested their diffusers. Similar designs of membrane diffuser will likely be in the ball park but not exactly the same and most likely somewhat less (10-20%) of the water volume moved than the Vertex Standard. Remember it is important to try to create ASAP a solid mass of bubbles to begin the up lift bubble plume. Keeping diffusers or the bubble makers separate reduces the effects of the rising bubbles to work as a team.
I think this chart assumes each diffuser is receiving a minimum of 1.0 cfm of air and creating 1mm diameter bubbles.
https://www.vertexwaterfeatures.com/aeration-lifting-rates
If you want the 'standard of the industry', Many of the Vertex sales reps will sell individual Vertex diffusers.

My rule is - daily moving some water is "usually" but not always better than moving no water.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 06/24/18 11:11 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Mike Whatley
I've read where ponds can still experience fish kills with aeration and I have to assume it's because the system isn't moving enough water.



It could also be the the pond has too many pounds of fish for the size of the BOW. In other words the carrying capacity of the pond has been exceeded for the existing conditions. Aeration can increase that carrying capacity but there are still limits.


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If like me and not knowing how to figure water lift or displacement or DIY then you might go with a company like Kasco Marine or Vertex and look at the different size (numbers of diffusers and air pumps) to make the decision on what to chose. My system using Kasco can be used in a 9 acre pond. So, it should be able to turn over a 3 acre pond using a 12 hr period, or that is how I looked at it.

And, I have yet to figure total number of pounds per acre of fish in my pond other than a SWAG. Using the total stocking numbers in the beginning and then shocking the 2nd and 3rd year while continuing to add additional fish due to things like no lmb spawns for yr two and yr three along with cormorants and otters. Not to mention how many pan fish spawned in that time. Even after electric shocking, I was told you have more fish than you think! What? I thought E shocks told what was all in there lol. Not True! Wr or Rw takes some time after additional stockings are made. The fish have to adjust to their environment, I would think before you can decide if you have too many. How long does that take for them to adjust? Pond management. Or at least for me is not as easy as one might think. smile


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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Calculating lift is not simple and it has numerous variables.
My rule is - daily moving some water is "usually" but not always better than moving no water.


Bill I would have to think measuring the volume of water flowing through a plume of open water with no pipe surrounding it would have to involve a lot of estimation and speculation. Not that those estimations are not useful, just that it sure would not be any where near an exact measurement.

As far as "some" daily water movement usually being better than none I would suggest that is what nature does. Windy day, more water mixing, calm day less or none. Rainy day with inflows more water mixing, no rain no water mixing.


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When researching aeration kits from multiple vendors, the system is typically rated..."for ponds up to 1/4 acre, or 1/2 acre, and so on, while some say ponds up to so many gallons.

When rating equipment by acreage, are they referring to surface area or ac/ft?

Last edited by Mike Whatley; 06/24/18 04:52 PM.

.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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Is it safe to assume an air pump rated for 15ft would be sufficient for a pond 12 ft deep, regardless of the total gallons of water in the pond? Since moving at least some water is better than not moving any, the diffuser efficiency can always be upgraded later.


.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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""Is it safe to assume an air pump rated for 15ft would be sufficient for a pond 12 ft deep, regardless of the total gallons of water in the pond? Since moving at least some water is better than not moving any, the diffuser efficiency can always be upgraded later.""

That IMO is a pretty safe assumption.

Vendors ratings for pond size aerators is in surface acres. I think the rating and pond size assumes 24/7 operation. I like to oversize the system usually with more diffusers and run the compressor less assuming the compressor has adequate cfm for multiple diffusers.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 06/24/18 08:01 PM.

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Something to keep in mind Mike is that sinking tubing, depending on how much you have to run, can often be more expensive than the diffusers themselves.

You don't have to run sinking tubing. You can use some cheaper tubing and use makeshift means to sink it (it will float". But if you try this you will only do it once. The sinking tubing made for the job works Sooooo much better the second time you will spring for the sinking tubing so might as well save the effort and buy it to begin with.


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Thanks Bill. I kinda thought that might be the case. Surface area wise, my pond is small, like .1 acre, but its deep. I'm sure I can get by with a single diffuser, placed in the middle of the pond. Plan is to elevate it off the bottom on a platform of milk crates, so I'll actually have it around 10'.

The way vendors advertise their pumps make it hard to determine if a certain pump is adequate. Then its finding one that fits the budget. I'm satisfied the diffuser end just needs to provide some kind of lift, even if its minimal for my size pond.


.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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Another diffuser question...

If a diffuser isn't equipped with a check valve to prevent water from leaching up the air supply line, will a check valve installed at the pump prevent this from happening?

Obviously, a check valve is installed to prevent excess back pressure, but does it matter where in the system it's located?


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I believe the check valve is best located at the diffuser.

A check valve will be more likely to stop the backflow of water (at the diffuser) than the back flow of air (at the pump). Air will leak through a small gap more easily than water will through the same gap.

If you had a quality air check valve at the pump, it would serve the same purpose so long as it's "air-tight" at low pressure (about 3-5 psi).

The purpose of the check valve is to keep water out of the line which eliminates debris from entering the system and avoids any freezing and bursting issues.


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Mike you are going to get some water in the air lines, I don't care what kind of check valve you use. As you compress air it heats and the moisture in the atmospheric air will precipitate out as the air cools. The only way to prevent this is with some very good quality moisture traps like used on air lines that supply air to paint systems or air powered tools. Which is completely impractical for pond aeration needs. So just accept there is going to be some moisture in the lines and over a period of a time will accumulate.

The practical way to prevent the moisture from becoming a problem is to make sure the line has a downward slope from the compressor all the way to the diffuser so any moisture accumulation will simply run down hill and be expelled into the pond. Good luck with that unless you have a small pond with everything situated perfectly and a trencher operator with laser level and the ability to run it perfectly and your pond is a perfect bowl shape with the diffuser in the perfect bottom. In other words almost impossible.

From a practical standpoint you will have water accumulate in low places in the air lines. If you don't operate the system in winter it doesn't matter. If you do intend to operate it in the winter (which I have had no experience with) the important points of this discussion is make sure as much of the line as possible will not be exposed to freezing temperatures (by burying it deep enough or have it deeper in the pond than the pond freezes). The part exposed to freezing make sure the condensate will drain to somewhere it will not freeze by running it down hill. Moisture may freeze in this part of the line despite all efforts otherwise and require alcohol periodically to thaw it. Truckers have to do this to air lines in their trucks with air brakes. They have air driers and tanks to prevent moisture from getting into brake lines and they still sometimes have to use alcohol. Have an over-pressure protection valve on your compressor (vane or piston) so if the line freezes shut it does not over-presure and blow your pump up.

Here on PBF we sometimes take things that are suited for a machete and try to dissect them with a scalpel. Don't drive yourself crazy. We are blowing volumes of air down into a body of water.

The 9" membrane diffusers I am familiar with have a built in check valve and do not need any additional check valve. The membrane itself does not have air holes in the center and, as it collapses due to lack of air pressure, covers the opening stopping any water from flowing back into the line. Other types of diffusers may require a check valve.

I have considered putting a check valve at my compressor because if you pull the line off under pressure and as the air rushes back out some moisture will be blown out at the compressor location. I have never done it and after 4 years have not seen any problem. I think the important thing is to have the compressor head a ways above water level. If my pump was located right by the water with only a foot of elevation I think I would want a check valve at the pump.

That is my experience. Don't make it too complicated because it is really not a precision operation. It is blowing air (hopefully efficiently so it does not cost you an arm and leg in electric costs or equipment replacement or upkeep) down into water and making tiny bubbles to move water to the surface. It is not rocket science.

Last edited by snrub; 06/25/18 12:55 PM.

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Another point on water in lines.

I do not run my system over the winter. Sometimes water will accumulate in the lines over the off season. Maybe the check valve leaks, maybe a hose clamp joint, who knows why, but sometimes it happens. Not all the time, but sometimes.

As an example, when I started up my system this spring one diffuser would not come on line immediately (out of a total of three individual double diffusers and two single diffusers for a total of 5 different separate air lines).

Water had filled the line presumably up to the pond surface level. When you start trying to push air through a line filled with water and force the water through the tiny holes in the diffuser the water, being more dense, takes a lot of time to flow through the tiny holes and escape to finally let the air start doing its thing.

This can lead to some problems if not handled correctly. In my case early in the spring I was running a linear diaphragm pump. I just let it run at stall pressure (around 5-6 psi) and after about 5 or 10 minutes the water cleared and everything was fine. I have since installed a Gast rotary vane pump to run three of the five air lines (the three double diffusers in my main pond). Had I done that with the Gast and if it was on a single line (with no other diffusers to bleed the pressure) it would have taken the rotary pump to whatever stall pressure it would produce (something well above its design pressure) and likely done one of two bad things or perhaps both. It could balloon the diffuser up beyond its stretch design and blown it out. It could damage the vanes in the pump by over pressuring it.

So any start up with significant water in the line should follow some precaution. Bill Cody will tell you to protect the pump by installing an over pressure valve - a good idea. This will protect the pump. But it could still WAY over stretch the diffuser (assuming it is a membrane type). So the way to prevent that would be to have a pressure gauge installed on the line (or at the pump) and a bleed off valve to bleed excess air while the water is being expelled.

In other words in my situation, next spring when I fire up the system for the first time this will be my procedure. I will open a bleed valve before starting the pump. I will start the pump then slowly close the bleed valve watching the pressure gauge. My diffuser depth is around 9 ft so it takes about 4.5 psi to overcome water head pressure at that depth and make air come out. Actually I know from normal operation my pressure gauge reads just over 5 psi. So I will close the bleed off valve only till the pressure reads 5.5 or maybe 6 psi. I will watch the diffusers. If air starts flowing out of all of them and I see this at the surface of the pond I will close the bleed valve completely and good to go. If one or more diffusers do not operate I will leave the pump running with the valve open, operating it to maintain 5.5 psi or thereabouts, till I do see air at all three stations. Then I will close the bleed valve completely.

By doing this, any entrapped water in the air lines will be given time to escape the diffuser heads tiny holes slowly without damaging my pump or the diffuser membrane.

I have no idea if that is the correct way, just my way.

Last edited by snrub; 06/25/18 12:57 PM.

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Pictures of my cobbled together system.
First picture is of the GAST pump sitting beside my linear air pumps that it is replacing (GAST 1023 replacing 3 Pondmaster AP100 pumps). I am still using one linear pump to supply air to two single diffusers in my sediment and forage ponds. The Gast supplies three double Matala 9" membrane diffusers in my main pond.

Second picture is my manifold distribution made from a water hydrant distribution valve. This is all DIY and it looks it.

A word about DIY. I suggest most pondmeisters go to Pond Boss web page or resource guide, find a reputable supplier and buy a ready made system designed for their pond. That is the best route. Why did I do it myself? Because that is part of the pleasure of my pond. Learning how to do stuff. The journey is my goal. That is part of my fun. Not to save money (I probably in the long run did not), although if a person considers their time worth nothing it is possible to save a little money.

If you can afford it and you have specific goals for your pond that an aeration system can help get you there, buy a good system from a reputable supplier that will help you along the way and be done with it. If you enjoy tinkering with things and need something to occupy your time, by all means DIY is very possible and not terribly hard if you are kind of a handyman.

I have more pictures of my aeration system in other threads. Here is a link to where I started building it and the post just below the first post of this link has links to my other threads that may have some more stuff on the system. It started out as an experiment to see if I actually wanted aeration and turned into a system. It is kind of scattered around in different threads.
snrubs aereation system start and links to snrubs other threads

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Last edited by snrub; 06/25/18 01:01 PM.

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Here are some more threads you might find helpful.

Aeration turn over rate discussion

Diffuser cleaning

pressure depth calculation

Last edited by snrub; 06/25/18 01:01 PM.

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Wow John!! That's a lot of information to absorb! Thank you for taking the time to be so thorough and detailed. I've read everything (including links) to the point my brain hurts...lol. (that ain't hard to accomplish).

I can see I will need a diffuser with a check valve. My intent is to run the system 12 hours a day. Summer at night, winter during the day. So the down time between runs will likely be creating excessive back pressure at startup.

From the pump to the diffuser, which is approx 100 feet, there is a 17 foot drop in grade. All downhill. The only part of the airline which would have an uphill run would be the last few feet to the diffuser, which will be elevated off the bottom approx 2 feet on a pedestal of milk crates (3 on the bottom, one centered on top). That would put the diffuser at around 10 ft. The pond is more square than round, but very symmetrical with steep sides and a flat botton at 12 feet.

My only other option is to aerate 24/7/365.

As far as winter is concerned, SW LA doesn't get too extreme. It isn't uncommon for surface temps to still be in the 60s by mid Nov-Dec. While we did have some 20s this past winter, that's the coldest I can remember here in nearly 40 years. Even at that, the pond was warm enough to prevent any freezing. Not even around the bank.

I really like the idea of plumbing in a relief valve. I don't know how that would benefit the system, unless I can set it to release at the pumps optimal pressure for the depth of the diffuser.

With only 1 acre feet (326k gallons), I feel like I can get by with a single diffuser and still get the turnover the pond needs. Does that sound right?


Last edited by Mike Whatley; 06/25/18 07:37 PM.

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If you have a good membrane diffuser and daily shut off the pump there shouldn't normally be any water leakage back from the diffuser into the hose. You can monitor this by just turning on the compressor and watching the air gauge (a good quality one). If the pump starts up and basically goes to normal running pressure then no water leakage occurred. However if the pump starts and builds pressure higher than the normal running psi then it is pumping water out of the airline. When the pressure returns to normal run psi, then air is being released from the diffuser. It takes about 1 sec per foot for new bubbles to reach the surface.

If you are using a GAST 0523, a two or three head 9" membrane diffuser will provide much more efficient use of the air produced and quicker, almost twice or almost 3X faster pond turnover. YOu will get more bang for your electrical dollar and savings will soon pay for the extra membrane diffuser. You could likely resort to two daily 4 hour aerations instead of the daily 12 hr run. Shorter pumps runs pay dividends not only in electricity but in fewer pump rebuilds over the life of the compressor motor.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 06/25/18 07:56 PM.

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Thanks for the input Bill.

I can see the logic in that. I think the Gast is a bit outside my budget at the moment tho, unless I can find a rebuilt one with some miles on it. I'd rather not go that route.

When you say a good membrane diffuser, are you referring to a plate type (vertex) or does a tube type fall into that relm. I've found a kit that has a diaphram type pump rated for 12', double tube membrane diffuser with check valve and 50' of weighted 3/8" air hose for a decent price. I know the Gast has much more backbone, and I could probably look into upgrading later, but I have to be a bit frugle right now. Elevating the diffuser plate to 10' will reduce the pressure load on the pump and hopefully give me the opportunity to get the system into that kind of routine.


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