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#492052 - 06/17/18 11:20 PM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: Pat Williamson]
John Fitzgerald Offline


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 2065
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
Originally Posted By: Pat Williamson
John F
PM Flame and ask him how he likes 4512 compared to other brands, he has some football shaped fish


I cannot buy it here. They charge an extra $30 a bag to ship it.

Only feed available here is catfish pellets and TSC product. I have never talked to another pond owner around here that fed anything other than catfish pellets or dog food. The feed stores look at me like I am stupid if I ask for anything else. It's a real backwater here when it comes to aquaculture.
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#492057 - 06/17/18 11:48 PM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: John Fitzgerald]
Pat Williamson Offline


Registered: 08/08/14
Posts: 2446
Loc: Oakwood,Texas
John
Sounds like a business opportunity, sorry to hear that feed stores don’t carry something

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#492061 - 06/18/18 12:34 AM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: Pat Williamson]
John Fitzgerald Offline


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 2065
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
The Co-Op manager here said if they carried Aquamax it would go bad before they could sell more than a few bags. I would be their only customer for it. He said there is very little demand for fish food around here.
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#492067 - 06/18/18 08:37 AM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: Mike Whatley]
Flame Online   content


Registered: 09/12/14
Posts: 1076
Loc: Deep East Texas
John Fitzgerald, Cargills should ship directly to you. They are located in Louisiana.
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Dear Alcohol, We had a deal where you would make me funnier, smarter, and a better dancer... I saw the video... We need to talk.

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#492072 - 06/18/18 10:08 AM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 546
Loc: Louisiana
We've had a change in our weather the last few days which is finally bringing in some much needed rain. I've noticed that since this change started, the fish have been considerably off their feeding routine. Is this normal? Naturally it has been in conjunction with my switching to AM500 so I have to wonder if the feed change is to be taken into account.
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#492073 - 06/18/18 10:10 AM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: Flame]
John Fitzgerald Offline


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 2065
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
Originally Posted By: Flame
John Fitzgerald, Cargills should ship directly to you. They are located in Louisiana.


They will, for $69 per bag. I will quit feeding entirely before I pay that much. I have been to or talked to, every feed store in the area.

Some of them carry a few bags of catfish pellets. TSC is the only place in the area that carries multi species food, and they only get a shipment in the spring. I checked their stock last October, and it was still the same February lot number -STALE.

This isn't east Texas. Probably 90% of ponds here are, or were, cattle ponds. Probably 99% of ponds here are unmanaged. People around here generally don't give a hoot about feeding, and the feed stores tell me there is almost no market for fish feeds, even catfish pellets.
Most don't even have catfish pellets in stock after Labor Day.

I have to figure out a better and cheaper way of getting fish food, or just feed CC pellets, or quit.
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#492075 - 06/18/18 10:15 AM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 546
Loc: Louisiana
You may want to look into creating your own source of feed. I've been looking into a Black Soldier Fly Larva generator. The grubs have a 42% protein/35% fat content. They've been used successfully in chicken farming and the idea is gaining ground all the time. It's worth reading up on anyway.


Edited by Mike Whatley (06/18/18 10:16 AM)
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#492078 - 06/18/18 10:33 AM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: Mike Whatley]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5291
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: Mike Whatley
We've had a change in our weather the last few days which is finally bringing in some much needed rain. I've noticed that since this change started, the fish have been considerably off their feeding routine. Is this normal? Naturally it has been in conjunction with my switching to AM500 so I have to wonder if the feed change is to be taken into account.


Where all my feeding is done by hand I notice every time my fish are off feed.

A large inflow of water will definitely change their feeding habits. Sometimes for more than one day. If the water coming in is turbid even more so.

My sediment pond, well, is a sediment pond. So it gets large flow throuh of water at times and very turbid at times. That pond will go off feed for days after a large rain event. If the rain event is big enough for enough water to flow through the sediment pond and make significant changes in the main pond it will also affect the main pond feeding. But any changes in fish behavior is magnified in the small sediment pond.
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I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

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#492079 - 06/18/18 10:33 AM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: Mike Whatley]
John Fitzgerald Offline


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 2065
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
Originally Posted By: Mike Whatley
You may want to look into creating your own source of feed. I've been looking into a Black Soldier Fly Larva generator. The grubs have a 42% protein/35% fat content. They've been used successfully in chicken farming and the idea is gaining ground all the time. It's worth reading up on anyway.


Not even a remote option here.
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#492081 - 06/18/18 10:41 AM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: John Fitzgerald]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5291
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: John Fitzgerald
Originally Posted By: Flame
John Fitzgerald, Cargills should ship directly to you. They are located in Louisiana.


They will, for $69 per bag. I will quit feeding entirely before I pay that much. I have been to or talked to, every feed store in the area.

Some of them carry a few bags of catfish pellets. TSC is the only place in the area that carries multi species food, and they only get a shipment in the spring. I checked their stock last October, and it was still the same February lot number -STALE.

This isn't east Texas. Probably 90% of ponds here are, or were, cattle ponds. Probably 99% of ponds here are unmanaged. People around here generally don't give a hoot about feeding, and the feed stores tell me there is almost no market for fish feeds, even catfish pellets.
Most don't even have catfish pellets in stock after Labor Day.

I have to figure out a better and cheaper way of getting fish food, or just feed CC pellets, or quit.


Four years ago that was about the same situation here John. Slowly I think a few more people are feeding and even a couple of us feeding higher quality feed so it is starting to change.

Just this year a local feed store has agreed to keep a few extra bags of AM MVP on hand for me and one other customer. Previous years I could order it and get it anywhere from one week to a month and a half later. I tried to order enough ahead to satisfy my needs. Now that the store is "stocking" (barely), I try to pick up a few bags at a time to keep them in the idea that I am a regular customer and will keep buying.

Maybe it will get better for you over time like it did for me. I did not even know there was better fish food available till I discovered Pond Boss.


Edited by snrub (06/18/18 10:43 AM)
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John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

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#492084 - 06/18/18 10:55 AM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: Mike Whatley]
BrianL Offline


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 777
Loc: Paris, TX
Put about 2-3 cups of AM in a gallon ziplock and tap it with a hammer till you get the size you want for your YOY. It doesn't take much.


Edited by BrianL (06/18/18 10:57 AM)
_________________________
1.8 acre pond with FHM(gone), CNBG, RES, HSB, and LMB
Trophy Hunter feeder.

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#492087 - 06/18/18 11:07 AM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: snrub]
John Fitzgerald Offline


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 2065
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
Originally Posted By: snrub


Four years ago that was about the same situation here John. Slowly I think a few more people are feeding and even a couple of us feeding higher quality feed so it is starting to change.

Just this year a local feed store has agreed to keep a few extra bags of AM MVP on hand for me and one other customer. Previous years I could order it and get it anywhere from one week to a month and a half later. I tried to order enough ahead to satisfy my needs. Now that the store is "stocking" (barely), I try to pick up a few bags at a time to keep them in the idea that I am a regular customer and will keep buying.

Maybe it will get better for you over time like it did for me. I did not even know there was better fish food available till I discovered Pond Boss.


Most people here that are feeding dog food don't know that fish food is actually cheaper per pound. Some of them didn't even know CC pellets existed until I told them.

I don't see it getting better around here. In fact, in the past two plus years I have been feeding, the stocking situation in stores has declined.

Hopefully, someone from Purina, Cargill, or others is reading this and will try to do something about it.
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#492098 - 06/18/18 12:09 PM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: Mike Whatley]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19627
Loc: Miss.
Know what your fish need. There are hundreds of fish species and their nutritional needs have not been determined at the species level.


Catfish do not need the same nutrition that LMB and BG need. Nor do HSB.


From Fish Nutrition presentation at PB conf.


Basic Food Components – Nutrition

The immense variety of cultured finfish species hampers efforts to simplify production industry wide. Approximately 170 taxa are currently cultured, including carnivores, herbivores, planktivores, and omnivores, each posing its own set of nutritional demands .

Fish meal has proven to be an excellent dietary protein source for finfish, leading to its description as an ‘‘ideal protein.’’ The ideal protein concept is based on the premise that if the amino acid profile of the feed mimics the whole-body amino acid profile of the animal being fed, protein utilization and growth should be maximized

Lipids, fatty acids, and their derivatives play a role in virtually every physiological process that occurs and for this reason dietary lipid composition and content represent a massive sector of overall nutrition. Nowhere is this more true than in finfish nutrition where lipid can exceed protein in the body composition of finfish, a testament to the physiological and energetic importance of this nutrient class (Tocher2003). Aside from physiological importance, lipids are indispensable energy sources, especially for finfish, which are not well-adapted to carbohydrate utilization.

Dietary protein and energy must be kept in proper balance because a deficiency or excess of dietary energy can reduce growth rates. Fish fed diets deficient in energy will metabolize more expensive dietary protein to meet energy requirements. Excess dietary energy can decrease protein intake and suppress growth.

finfish do not require carbohydrates in their diet, … complex carbohydrates cannot be digested and utilized efficiently by most finfish species. A general dichotomy exists in the carbohydrate digestive ability of warmwater omnivores and herbivores versus the inability of coolwater and coldwater carnivores, which lack the appropriate function necessary for digestion of carbohydrates.

 For this reason, diets fed to these fish rarely contain more than 20% complex carbohydrate

Conversely, warmwater omnivores or herbivores (e.g., channel catfish, tilapia, common carp, and white sturgeon) adapt well to diets containing as much as 40% dietary carbohydrate .

Although vitamins and minerals are required in minute amounts compared with protein, lipid, and so forth, they are critically important, … Every micronutrient has a deficiency disease associated with it, the effects of which are sometimes irreversible or fatal. For a few vitamins and most minerals, excess can be equally detrimental, resulting in toxicity.

---------------------------------------------------
Although carnivorous fish species generally have a limited ability to use carbohydrates for energy, hybrid striped bass are relatively adept at it.  Digestibility coefficients for the carbohydrates were generally high (83.3 to100 percent), indicating that both simple carbohydrates and complex carbohydrates were digested efficiently by these hybrids.




Edited by ewest (06/18/18 12:15 PM)
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#492100 - 06/18/18 12:15 PM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: Mike Whatley]
cypress Offline


Registered: 02/21/17
Posts: 14
Loc: S.W. Louisiana
Mike,

You and I are in the same geographic location, and I have not notice my fish feeding any differently since the rain started. It might be the feed change.

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#492102 - 06/18/18 12:44 PM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: ewest]
John Fitzgerald Offline


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 2065
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
Sounds like I should quit feeding unless I was only feeding CC.

CC pellets might not help BG growth at all?

I cannot obtain the proper feed for BG without paying an outlandish shipping price, because local stores do not stock and are very recalcitrant to order....(the we forgot your order, sorry, syndrome).

If I was passing through eastern SD, I would pick up a pallet of Optimal at the mill, but I'm not.

FRUSTRATED
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#492103 - 06/18/18 12:50 PM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 546
Loc: Louisiana
Thanks for the input Cypress. I was kinda thinking the switch in food might have had something to do with it. The initial feeding with AM500 was straight and they didn't do too well, especially the smaller fish. Since then I've been mixing close to 50/50 but the fish that are normally congregated waiting for me haven't been there. I see quite a bit of take and spit from those that are feeding too. Hopefully they'll make a turn with the cooler temps, but it seems the hotter it is, the better they eat. That's why I wasn't sure which it might be. So far we haven't gotten enough rain to even effect the water level, but it has cooled at the surface. Color and visibility was still good.
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#492105 - 06/18/18 12:54 PM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: Mike Whatley]
BrianL Offline


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 777
Loc: Paris, TX
John there has to be a Purina dealer somewhere close that can get you AM 500 or MVP. Contact Purina and ask them where to buy it.

https://www.facebook.com/PurinaWildlife/
_________________________
1.8 acre pond with FHM(gone), CNBG, RES, HSB, and LMB
Trophy Hunter feeder.

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#492106 - 06/18/18 01:08 PM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: BrianL]
John Fitzgerald Offline


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 2065
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
Originally Posted By: BrianL
John there has to be a Purina dealer somewhere close that can get you AM 500 or MVP. Contact Purina and ask them where to buy it.

https://www.facebook.com/PurinaWildlife/



Brian, been there, done that. Asked "Are you a Purina dealer?" Answer: "Yes, but we can only order certain products." Fish food is never among them. Special order. Cost plus shipping.

Purina itself is zero help.

If you guys say CC pellets have little or no effect on BG growth, then I am going to cease feeding.

We can't keep CC over winter in this neighborhood as nocturnal otters get them.
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#492111 - 06/18/18 02:46 PM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: John Fitzgerald]
Pat Williamson Offline


Registered: 08/08/14
Posts: 2446
Loc: Oakwood,Texas
John we feel your pain, if you use TSC multi species please look at the date on the bag and don’t use anything more than 3 months old or less. That’s one of the main issues here that it might be 6 months old..... not good

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#492112 - 06/18/18 03:20 PM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: John Fitzgerald]
BrianL Offline


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 777
Loc: Paris, TX
Originally Posted By: John Fitzgerald
Originally Posted By: BrianL
John there has to be a Purina dealer somewhere close that can get you AM 500 or MVP. Contact Purina and ask them where to buy it.

https://www.facebook.com/PurinaWildlife/



Brian, been there, done that. Asked "Are you a Purina dealer?" Answer: "Yes, but we can only order certain products." Fish food is never among them. Special order. Cost plus shipping.

Purina itself is zero help.

If you guys say CC pellets have little or no effect on BG growth, then I am going to cease feeding.

We can't keep CC over winter in this neighborhood as nocturnal otters get them.



Call......
FARMERS COOPERATIVE
Certified Expert Dealer 2049 TWIN OAKS DR, ELKINS, AR479-643-2004Today: 8:00AM-6:00PM

479-643-2004

$40/bag for AM 500 and can have it in this Friday.


Edited by BrianL (06/18/18 03:24 PM)
_________________________
1.8 acre pond with FHM(gone), CNBG, RES, HSB, and LMB
Trophy Hunter feeder.

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#492113 - 06/18/18 03:32 PM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: BrianL]
John Fitzgerald Offline


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 2065
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
Originally Posted By: BrianL


Call......
FARMERS COOPERATIVE
Certified Expert Dealer 2049 TWIN OAKS DR, ELKINS, AR479-643-2004Today: 8:00AM-6:00PM

479-643-2004

$40/bag for AM 500 and can have it in this Friday.


Yes, that's our local store 2.5 miles from my house. They might tell you that. It's just talk. I can place my order and it will never come in or else take six weeks if I call every week. Been there done that. Couldn't get MVP at all through them last year. Got one bag through Fayetteville and took six weeks. That's $40 plus 10.5% tax. $44.20.

That was last year and I am reluctant to deal with them again.
_________________________

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#492131 - 06/18/18 07:35 PM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: John Fitzgerald]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5291
Loc: SE Kansas
I personally think you will get good growth out of the Game Fish Chow. I think you will get a lot better growth than no feed at all.

It would just be better if you could get the better feed.


Edited by snrub (06/18/18 07:36 PM)
_________________________
John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

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#492142 - 06/19/18 12:12 AM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: John Fitzgerald]
anthropic Offline


Registered: 05/03/14
Posts: 1551
Loc: East Texas, USA
Originally Posted By: John Fitzgerald
Originally Posted By: BrianL


Call......
FARMERS COOPERATIVE
Certified Expert Dealer 2049 TWIN OAKS DR, ELKINS, AR479-643-2004Today: 8:00AM-6:00PM

479-643-2004

$40/bag for AM 500 and can have it in this Friday.


Yes, that's our local store 2.5 miles from my house. They might tell you that. It's just talk. I can place my order and it will never come in or else take six weeks if I call every week. Been there done that. Couldn't get MVP at all through them last year. Got one bag through Fayetteville and took six weeks. That's $40 plus 10.5% tax. $44.20.

That was last year and I am reluctant to deal with them again.


I'm really sorry to hear about the poor service there. Anyone can slip up occasionally, but if it happens repeatedly...
_________________________
8 acre E Texas, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12 inch N LMB & 1k GSH 10/17. 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18

There are only 10 types of people; those who understand binary and those who don't




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#492158 - 06/19/18 09:49 AM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: anthropic]
John Fitzgerald Offline


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 2065
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
Originally Posted By: anthropic

I'm really sorry to hear about the poor service there. Anyone can slip up occasionally, but if it happens repeatedly...


It's not all the store personnel's fault. It's their silly ordering system.

From what I understand, if an ordered item is not at their distributing warehouse within a week, the order gets cancelled. The store clerk has to place the order again, and go up the supply chain to ensure the warehouse gets it in stock. If not in stock at the warehouse after this, it gets cancelled again. When it finally comes in at the warehouse, there is no existing order for the feed unless the store clerk has placed the order again within the previous week.

It's asking a lot these days for store clerks to follow up on orders, it seems. That's why you have to hound them every week until it comes in. It's a hassle and somewhat embarrassing to do so.

Hopefully someone from the Purina supply chain is reading this.

The individual bag/half pallet shipping rates are too high to justify for all the feed brands. I wish there was a mill close by.....

Edit: I just ordered a bag of AM500 from them (local store). I am not going to follow up or hound them. Waiting to see what happens, if they call when it's in or if it ever comes in.



Edited by John Fitzgerald (06/19/18 10:52 AM)
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#492174 - 06/19/18 11:08 AM Re: Aquamax vs Game Fish Chow [Re: snrub]
jpsdad Offline


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 241
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: snrub
I personally think you will get good growth out of the Game Fish Chow. I think you will get a lot better growth than no feed at all.

It would just be better if you could get the better feed.


I agree with snrub. Keep in mind, even though the BG don't get as much gain ... the excrement containing feed not fully digested will be eaten by pond creatures that are very good food for your BG.

John, if your pond is used to being fed, I wouldn't cut them off of the feed abruptly. If you plan to stop feeding, there should be a a way to wean them off feed gradually without deleterious effects. Since you have a goal of 1 lb bluegill here are a few ideas.

1. Without the feed, you will need to reduce the number of bluegill. Perhaps you can supplement LMB numbers with LMB large enough to escape predation.

2. You could manually remove <6" BG by fishing or seining. Someone recently posed the question of how to grind fish in order to feed pond fish. If this isn't too much trouble, it seems a brilliant way to reduce BG recruitment and feed BG directly.

3. You could harvest some 6" to 9" BG focusing on females that you have already fed and grown.

The amount you harvest/crop should probably be related to how much (weight of feed) you've been feeding them annually. I don't know what this number would be, perhaps others can offer ideas with regard to this.

Feed is not unlike fertilization. It takes the pond to a new level of production. Curtailing this fertility can have unwanted side effects. So fertilization and feed are accompanied with their contingent commitments to stay the course. Even so, you could transition to less or no feed just be sure to have a plan in place if you determine this course of action.

I know your goal of 1lb BG is important to you because you have written about it many times. Don't forget that it can be done without fertilization or feed. I know this because I have caught a number of them from ponds which are not fertilized nor fed. These ponds had very numerous LMB. If you don't need feed or fertilization, then you can do it with Game Fish Chow for supplemental feed and fertility. Regardless of whether you feed this feed or that, or even if you feed at all, it will be the management of bluegill numbers that will play the most important role in achieving the 1lb BG goals.

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