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#491041 - 05/31/18 01:04 PM Re: A question about Alkalinity and PH [Re: Mike Whatley]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19351
Loc: Miss.
See this link. Search here for gypsum. There are several threads. Be sure what you are getting is pure gypsum and not some mix with bad things included. There have been reports of that.

https://srac.tamu.edu/serveFactSheet/112

https://srac.tamu.edu/serveFactSheet/262


Edited by ewest (05/31/18 01:05 PM)
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#491057 - 05/31/18 06:53 PM Re: A question about Alkalinity and PH [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 149
Loc: Louisiana
Hey ewest. I know after hurricanes Katrina, Rita and Ike there were a lot of reports of that Chinese crap having a lot of bad stuff in it which our government "supposedly addressed". A lot of homes had to be redone because they weren't livable. I'm not sure where this stuff we're selling comes from but so far, we haven't heard of any of the Harvey recovery homes having issues....yet, but a lot of those folk are just now getting back in their homes.

What I'm going to use is the stickers they use to separate bundles. It's the same stuff, but cut into 3" slats then laminated 4 high. My hopes is that all the paper and most of the adhesive will remain in the baskets so once the gypsum has dissolved I can just pull them out and refill. It's a pretty much limitless supply, and its free.


Edited by Mike Whatley (05/31/18 08:24 PM)
_________________________
1/4 acre pond (more or less), 12 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BHC, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#491083 - 06/01/18 09:27 AM Re: A question about Alkalinity and PH [Re: Mike Whatley]
DonoBBD Offline


Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 1873
Loc: Ontario, Canada, Eh.
Some gypsum can have allot of sulfur in it. There was a bad batch of drywall from China in the US that was so high in sulfur that is started to rot the wiring and electrical boxes from the acid in it.

Sugar beat lime is a waste product that you may be able to source out but it can have some nitrates in it.

Cheers Don.
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7/8th of an acre, Perch only pond, Ontario, Canada.

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#491101 - 06/01/18 12:43 PM Re: A question about Alkalinity and PH [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 149
Loc: Louisiana
Hey Don,
I'd say that out of the 1000s of homes here that were flooded, it appears this area may be around 70-80% remodeled now. It's only been months since the hurricane, but so far, there haven't been any reports of substandard product...yet.

I'm going to take this process slow and monitor it closely. It's hard to pass up free. Gotta stay on the boss's good side!!
_________________________
1/4 acre pond (more or less), 12 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BHC, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#491277 - 06/04/18 07:28 PM Re: A question about Alkalinity and PH [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 149
Loc: Louisiana
It's been two weeks since I limed the pond. Took a reading this afternoon and got a ph of 7.8 on both a litmus and wide range. The hardness appears to have increased just a tad, but not much.

Yesterday I transplanted about a ton of big river stone and in the process muddied up the shoreline pretty good. Today, other than a thin green film on the surface (pollen, I think) my clarity has increased to over 3 feet, so I'm not concerned about having a suspension issue.

Here's the BUT!!

Even with the clarity increasing, my water has a pretty dark green color. My concern is that I may not have a sufficient plankton bloom to support all the new fry that are hatching. I also noticed a couple of fish that appeared to be stressing (red tails, tail fins ragged, and very lethargic. All the others appear fine. My water is very warm.

How do I determine if I need to add fertilizer and how much should I add to roughly 326k gallons of water? What kind of fertilizer should I be looking for?

As always, any and all suggestions or incite will be greatly appreciated.


Edited by Mike Whatley (06/04/18 07:37 PM)
_________________________
1/4 acre pond (more or less), 12 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BHC, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#491297 - 06/05/18 08:04 AM Re: A question about Alkalinity and PH [Re: Mike Whatley]
DonoBBD Offline


Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 1873
Loc: Ontario, Canada, Eh.
I don't fertilize but I do control our water temp as best I can with aeration. I have seen what you are describing with water temp rise. I am guessing you do not have aeration at all.

You may have had soluble suspended acidic material in the water column too. As it reacts with the lime it will coagulate or stick together making the molecule larger and heavy. They will titrate out and sink.

Watch what happens when you get some good wind action or cool snap. Nature is a beautiful thing you just need to observer her. My bet is that your PH rise has locked up acids in your fertilizer and dropped them to the bottom of your pond as balanced food. One good rain and sunny day and you may change your thoughts on water clarity.
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7/8th of an acre, Perch only pond, Ontario, Canada.

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#491305 - 06/05/18 10:14 AM Re: A question about Alkalinity and PH [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 149
Loc: Louisiana
I have to admit Don, I love being able to sit at my kitchen table and see those big males doing their thing from 80 feet away, but I get concerned when I see all those fry and not having a good food base. They seem to be doing ok tho. I'm going to just keep feeding and not think about fertilizer. Hydrating the feed seems to be the way to go as it softens the feed up quicker and makes it more attainable to everything. Will probably increase the amount a bit then look into switching to a higher protein feed.

You are correct about the aeration. Haven't gotten that far yet. I have been considering plumbing into my well with a venturi and then running the water outlet to the inflow and let it run into the pond above ground. I'm down about a foot right now and what little rain we've gotten hasn't been enough to benefit anything. By oxygenating the water before it gets to the pond and then the air contact as it flows in may help both my DO and lower the temp, at least temporarily. Tests on the well Ph have been in the 7s consistently.
_________________________
1/4 acre pond (more or less), 12 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BHC, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#491307 - 06/05/18 11:26 AM Re: A question about Alkalinity and PH [Re: Mike Whatley]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19351
Loc: Miss.
Just a note that all those yoy BG babies are not supposed to survive. Most have to be eaten or starve with some survivors growing enough. If that was not the case your pond would be overpopulated very quickly with BG. If you have a green tint to the water then there is enough plankton for the yoy BG for now. It may not be ideal but is likely doing just fine for now. This is especially so if you are supp. feeding.
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#491311 - 06/05/18 12:27 PM Re: A question about Alkalinity and PH [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 149
Loc: Louisiana
Hey ewest. Yeah, I fully understand that aspect. Between the LMB, BHC, GSF and Warmouth, I think the predation factor is well in hand. Time will tell. I just want to make sure the food chain is healthy. I figured there was some degree of plankton but with the visibility getting deeper by the day, my inexperienced mind tends to get me going sometimes.
_________________________
1/4 acre pond (more or less), 12 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BHC, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#491368 - 06/06/18 12:33 PM Re: A question about Alkalinity and PH [Re: Mike Whatley]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19351
Loc: Miss.
Mike I am adding a post from another thread just for info if the situation arises in your water.


For everyone - about fertilization. It is a tool ,see the archive post on fertilization. Tracy one thing that is misleading about fertilization is difference between a fertilization plan/program for infertile waters vs. the use of small amounts of fertilizer as a slight enhancement. The later can be done by experienced pond owners in small amounts to help. Most think that it is an all or none approach that requires full fertilization to be helpful. That is incorrect. The problem is the eyes deceive - most people think that because they cant visually see big changes in productivity that they are not there. I have seen (no pun intended) in tests substantial increases in productivity ( plankton increases of 10 to 15%) that were not visually confirmed. You cant see the change with your eyes. Just because you cant see it does not mean that its not there for the fish to eat .

With water visibility at 36 inches a small amount of water soluble pond fertilizer can be used to keep the bloom at 30-36 inches and not let it drop to 45 inches. Those type refinements often can not be seen with the naked eye view but can make a big difference to the fish. An occasional enhancement (1 or 2 per growing season) by using (depending on the pond and manager) of small amounts ( 1 lb or less) per acre of water soluble fertilizer can be a productive tool.

I am not suggesting that you need to fertilize , just noting the potential if the situation arises for you or others.

Its now June and time in the south to run seine surveys for the first time this year.
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#491408 - 06/06/18 06:02 PM Re: A question about Alkalinity and PH [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 149
Loc: Louisiana
Thanks for that post ewest. If i had any inclination toward using fertilizer before, it's pretty much dried up like my grass.

Bought a pool thermometer yesterday and got it in the water. When I said the water was warm, I wasn't exaggerating. At 6pm it read 94 degrees. Visibility doesn't appear to have gotten any deeper, but I haven't measured it. The feeding activity was way off today and I've lost 5 fish since yesterday. Nothing substantial, but a loss is a loss.

That film I previously thought may be pollen is some kind of algae. It's turned green now, covering a good portion of the surface and has tiny bubbles scattered through it. I had a little algaecide left over so I VERY SPARINGLY hit what I could around the edge.

One of my biggest problems is it takes a real strong wind to get any benefit, and we've had as much wind as we have rain. The property is surrounded by trees and the house blocks a lot of any south wind.

I'm seriously investigating a venturi set up on my well so I can get some stir and O2 at least on top. That will let me get the level up to full pool as well. The well has a 1hp submersible pump and I can tie into a vacant 1 1/4" valve to route to the pond. Haven't decided whether to DIY it or buy something online. Lots of good info here to peruse through.

Aeration is a must, but the budget is too tight for that right now.
_________________________
1/4 acre pond (more or less), 12 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BHC, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#491434 - 06/07/18 11:07 AM Re: A question about Alkalinity and PH [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 149
Loc: Louisiana
I talked to my well guy today and got some pretty good info from him. Thought I'd pass it along to anyone who may be thinking about using a Venturi device off of their well.

My pump is a 1hp and draws 8 amps. It is underground so no threat to it ever freezing. The biggest thing I found out is how you want the pump itself to operate...which is continuously. Once you've installed your pipe and device and are ready to start pumping water, you want to set your pressure at the valve so that you maintain between 40-50 psi in the tank. Mine is set to kick on at 35 and back off at 65. Once you've got it adjusted just let it run non stop. Having the pump constantly kicking on and off 1.) Uses more electricity and 2.) Is detrimental to the health of your pump.

Now I need to decide whether to DIY my Venturi or find a manufactured one. That will determine what size pipe I go with.
_________________________
1/4 acre pond (more or less), 12 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BHC, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#491446 - 06/07/18 02:38 PM Re: A question about Alkalinity and PH [Re: Mike Whatley]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19351
Loc: Miss.
Any movement of the water is good. Pump , outboard motor even a trolling motor have been used.
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#491451 - 06/07/18 04:10 PM Re: A question about Alkalinity and PH [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 149
Loc: Louisiana
I've thought about that too. If I knew I would be able to get it out, I'd back my surface drive into the pond and crank it up. It's got quite a bit of torque if I give her the juice. The side of the pond I would have to back into drops off pretty steep so the angle would be pushing water to the bottom of the pond. Don't know if that's good or bad, but I would think if I didn't run it long, it might help destratify some as well.

I've thought about the trolling motor too. I need to replace the one I lost in the flood. Either would work, for sure to move some water around. I may even supplement the venturi with a TM between injections.

My thinking is this...
If I use the venturi to maintain water level, I incidentally improve my DO, water temp and possibly ph. Then the TM between uses to keep the water moving around.

Do you think that would work...short term anyway?


Edited by Mike Whatley (06/07/18 04:20 PM)
_________________________
1/4 acre pond (more or less), 12 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BHC, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#491456 - 06/07/18 07:09 PM Re: A question about Alkalinity and PH [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 149
Loc: Louisiana
I freaked out when I checked the surface temp and the thermometer read 99 degrees!!

Tried to feed but what few fish showed up wouldn't hardly touch the pellets. So it was time to take action. The boat (Surface drive mud boat) was sitting right there so I got it started, set it on high idle and dropped the prop in the pond. In less than 5 minutes I had a good current circling the pond and the temp had dropped to 94. Another 5 minutes or so and it was down to 88, so I shut it down. Didn't think it was healthy to drop it too much to fast.

The visibility was naturally reduced to about a foot. I'm sure I increased the DO considerably tho.

Got so excited I've misplaced my dang keys!! Hopefully they didn't fall in the pond...lol. I'm such a doofuss sometimes.
_________________________
1/4 acre pond (more or less), 12 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BHC, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#491463 - 06/07/18 10:19 PM Re: A question about Alkalinity and PH [Re: Mike Whatley]
anthropic Offline


Registered: 05/03/14
Posts: 1176
Loc: Louisiana, USA
Mike, sounds like you took appropriate action just in time.

Do you think the cooling was due to deeper water mixing, or increased evaporation, or increased aeration?
_________________________
7 acre pond in east Texas, full pool reached March 2016. CNBG, RES, FHM stocked Nov 15; TP May 16; LSL bass 30 June 16. Added 100 12 inch N LMB and 1,000 shiners Oct 17, 150# TP and 70 HSB May 18




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#491466 - 06/08/18 04:52 AM Re: A question about Alkalinity and PH [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 149
Loc: Louisiana
It happened so quickly that I'm sure it was mixing deeper water. Just how deep it was pulling from I'm not sure. The prop had a large area churning white as it was just under the surface, but no bigger than the pond is the current had to be moving down the slope as well as around the pond.

I can actually run it with half the prop out of the water with no worry about the motor as it's air cooled. 31hp Briggs. She's a beast.

I went out just now and shined a spotlight on the water and everything looked fine. (No dead fish anyway). The surface temp continued to fall over night to 84.

Still haven't found my keys!


Edited by Mike Whatley (06/08/18 05:32 AM)
_________________________
1/4 acre pond (more or less), 12 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BHC, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#491479 - 06/08/18 11:06 AM Re: A question about Alkalinity and PH [Re: Mike Whatley]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19351
Loc: Miss.
See the PM. Folks there are several very good fact sheets on the subject. Here is one.

https://srac.tamu.edu/serveFactSheet/292
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#491510 - 06/08/18 07:08 PM Re: A question about Alkalinity and PH [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 149
Loc: Louisiana
Thanks for the Pm ewest. I read through both links. I think what I got from it all was it's better to aerate in the early morning hours more than any time, but that's not feasible in my case. I'm waiting until late afternoon to do anything, which may be a mistake since that's when the DO level is probably at its highest naturally.

I am modifying my method somewhat, however. The motor is running now and I've set it with the prop half way out of the water. It's not moving nearly the amount of surface area as yesterday, but it's spraying water thru the air a good 10 ft behind the boat, so right now I'm mainly aerating the surface.

I'm gonna let it do that for about an hour then I'll lower the prop and give everything a good stir for about 10 minutes. That aught to give them a good dose of O2 a bit deeper too.

Guess I'm going to have to make this a daily routine until I can get an aerator installed. I don't expect we'll get much relief from the heat any time soon. Surface temp was back up to 94 today.

Oh yeah...found my keys!!
_________________________
1/4 acre pond (more or less), 12 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BHC, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#491514 - 06/08/18 07:47 PM Re: A question about Alkalinity and PH [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 149
Loc: Louisiana
Anthropic,
To better answer your question, I can now say it was from mixing deeper water. When I lowered the trim on the motor today, in just a few seconds I had debris and silt boiling up on the far side of the pond. Didn't think that was good to do for too long so I shut it down. That brief influx of current gave everything a good stir so the little bit of dead water should get some air.
I'm able to get the surface temp down into the high 80s consistently just stirring the top layers. I think a few seconds of deep push should be good in the long run. I may be wrong.
_________________________
1/4 acre pond (more or less), 12 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BHC, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#491519 - 06/08/18 10:10 PM Re: A question about Alkalinity and PH [Re: Mike Whatley]
anthropic Offline


Registered: 05/03/14
Posts: 1176
Loc: Louisiana, USA
Wow. I'm wondering if the tarp idea might help in the afternoons, when temps and O2 levels are highest. Yes, it would reduce air/water mix. But if temps even out from top to bottom in the 90s, might be worth considering reducing the solar input.

Your quick action deal reminds me of Bob Lusk's warning at the start of my pond dream: More acreage isn't always best. Management is more difficult & expensive. I really didn't believe it at the time, and was disappointed that I ended up with "only" about 8 acres of pond instead of 11.

But he was right. The bigger the BOW, the more it resembles an aircraft carrier, requiring more effort to change course & slow to do so. Sometimes too slow to save the fish, as I discovered last October.


Edited by anthropic (06/08/18 10:19 PM)
_________________________
7 acre pond in east Texas, full pool reached March 2016. CNBG, RES, FHM stocked Nov 15; TP May 16; LSL bass 30 June 16. Added 100 12 inch N LMB and 1,000 shiners Oct 17, 150# TP and 70 HSB May 18




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#491523 - 06/09/18 07:14 AM Re: A question about Alkalinity and PH [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 149
Loc: Louisiana
As much as my little pond keeps me scratching my head, I can't imagine trying to manage something as big as yours. BOWs like mine, that rely soley on runoff, are challenging enough!!

Your tarp idea has gotten me thinking, tho. No bigger than my pond is, I could easily set 4 t-posts around its banks and stretch a sizeable tarp three or four feet off the surface. My pond is only 66x66 roughly, so I could deploy it either over the middle or almost shade one whole side. It would still get enough sun (I think) to promote bloom, thus O2, but help keep the surface temp down too, so the water was able to store more of it.

My wife is gonna think I'm nuts!!! Lol


Edited by Mike Whatley (06/09/18 09:20 AM)
_________________________
1/4 acre pond (more or less), 12 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BHC, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#491529 - 06/09/18 07:40 AM Re: A question about Alkalinity and PH [Re: Mike Whatley]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 149
Loc: Louisiana
Getting back on track of this thread....

Took readings of my water this morning at 6:15. Surface temp was 84 degrees. Ph reading was 7.0 on both litmus and wide range testers and my alkalinity has increased to 40 ppm. Looks like the 500# of lime I put out three weeks ago has made some improvements and my efforts with the outboard aren't hurting anything. Fish activity this morning is VERY CALM. My hardness however, is still 0. Gotta do something about that. Probably look into adding some gypsum (sheetrock) today.
_________________________
1/4 acre pond (more or less), 12 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BHC, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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