Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations RESxGSF hybrid

The third fish does look significantly different. And yes there is the possibility of a three way mutt.

I suppose the differenf look could just be natural variance of the cross (not all individuals look exactly alike) or a different cross alltogether. I have ran across several that do look similar to the third fish. He is larger than the others so I suppose size/age could make a difference also.

I did stock CNBG and RES in my sediment pond with a few accidental GSF in there to make all the hybrids. So CNBG parentage is possible.

I like the looks of the fish. They tend to be pellet hogs, grow fast, bite a hook well and fillet out nice.

It might seem like I have an excess amount of hybrids and based on yesterday's fishing would support that (tougher to get fish to bite than the day before). But I would estimate, based on what I see at feeding time, GSF and hybrids probably comprise no more than 5% of my forage fish BG type population. I catch lots more BG than hybrids. The hybrids are just something different so I am kind of fascinated with them.

Thanks for starting this discussion John and I hope I'm not hijacking here. I would love to get some thoughts from others. I'm not good at identification yet. I have been concerned that the "BG" I received at stocking were in fact mostly HBG (or even worse just GSF). I haven't kept a faithful log, but 90% of what I catch with a worm under a bobber are like the HBG/GSF in my pics attached. I was supposed to get 200 BG and 100 HBG at the time of stocking. I understand HBG should be more aggressive, but I hardly catch anything but what's in the pics.

My pond is only two years old and stocked last spring (2017). I think most seem to be doing well (most are 5-6" with an occasional 7-8"), but I'm not confident I got exactly what I was told.

Coming from someone who has embraced GSF, I'm 99% sure the first two pics are GSF. The third may have some RES in it, but you do find a GSF occasionally with red tips on the gill flap.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=37952&Number=494376#Post494376

I'm also really new at fish ID.
I was told this fish is a hybrid BG.
there are some decent pics of HBG/GSF in this thread.

They all three look pretty GSF'y to me.

The middle picture looks pure GSF. Harder for me to tell on the first and third picture but if they have some other sunfish in them the traits sure are heavy towards GSF. They all have pectoral fins and green cheek bars that look GSF.

It is easier to tell with them in hand than in pictures only. A pure GSF will not only have a big mouth but a wide body compared to a BG. The hybrid is something in between. But if you have a pure GSF and a hybrid side by side you can see that the GSF lacks the height of body the hybrid has but the GSF will have a wider (thicker) body.

It would be easy to call all three of those GSF but I would not be surprised if there was not some mix in the first and third pictures. Thing of it is, none of them look like traditional F1 HBG. If they are hybrids they could be F2's with a lot more GSF characteristics being exhibited.

That is my take but I am far from an expert. I can tell my own fish better than someone elses because if I question I can pretty easily get my hands on another fish that I am sure of the pedigree. Once I can compare them side by side then the hybrid becomes evident. I also know what my possibilities are by the fish I stocked so that helps too.

On a side note concerning GSF, I have had the occasion to fillet quite a few pretty good size GSF recently and the meat and skin are distinctively different than BG.

One notable difference is that the GSF will have a thicker fillet but the body is not as tall so the fillet is not as wide. Overall I think I get less meat from a GSF than a BG of similar size.

But the main things I notice is the meat is finer grained (flakes are smaller when cooked) and the skin and scales are quite different. On a BG to get the fillet off the skin just run the knife between. Comes off pretty easily. But when I fillet GSF I have to be lots more careful with the knife or I cut through the skin. The skin seems to be thinner and more delicate, the scales finer and the meat more tender. All in all, when cutting the fillet off the skin I have to be a lot more careful or I mess up the fillet.

I can't say that I have noticed any difference in filleting a HBG vs a pure BG but in reality I just did not pay that much attention. I will try to compare better in the future. But the GSF was enough different it was easily noticeable that I had to be more careful getting the skin off.

snrub, what about the taste between the two? I prefer the
warmouth, rockbass, goggleye over the bg. But I still like the bg also.

Hey shrub,

Do you think it could be because GSF spend so much time in super shallow, and warmer water? The heat causing them to be softer?

Those 3 look like GSF. I don't see any BG (or HBG) traits in any of them. Only slight possibility that No. 2 is part HBG is the yellow on the fins , which can be (but not exclusively) a HBG trait.

You guys are giving me a sick feeling that I received poor stockers. I don't want to take away from the initial topic, but any guidance on what route I should now take? I know some (Mike above for one) have embraced GSF, but would like other thoughts on correction. Thanks.

I hate to say it JW, but if you're wanting them gone completely, about the only option you've got is to kill everything in the pond and start over, but that's not necessarily a 100% guarantee you'll never get GSF in your pond again. They have a reputation for "just showing up".

That being said, GSF will readily go into a trap baited with cheap dog food, and you can reduce their numbers significantly that way. It wont eliminate them, but it will knock them back some.

If you plan on restocking HBG, I think the probabilities of having them again are pretty high, tho, being that half of that cross is GSF.

As has been said... when you get lemons, make lemonade. GSF are aggressive and feisty critters. Eager to bite, and a hoot to catch on light tackle. They dont eat too bad either!!

I wouldn't worry about GSF. They only spawn annually and BG have a never ending all Spring and Summer spawn.

We have not eaten all that many of them, although just recently we did clean several larger ones so maybe we will notice. I asked the wife and she said she didn't separate them when cooking. I guess my answer is I have not seen enough difference that when eating BG I say "oh, this must be GSF?" Just have not noticed the difference but have not made any special attempt to do so either.

I like the coating we put on them even more than the fish itself so the coating may be covering up any difference also. I have her cook everything in nugget sizes about two bites per nugget. I might notice more if the fish were prepared without breaded type coating.

Don't know. I assumed it was just because it was a different species. I know little about BCP but have heard that the meat is of different texture or structure at different times of year.

I'll try to pay more attention the next time I fillet one to be more observant on the differences. I've mostly noticed that I have to be more careful getting the skin off the fillet or I will cut or tear through the skin.

Here is a thread of mine on GSF invasion of my old pond. What I did was introduce some larger size BG (large enough so the larger GSF could not eat them) and in a couple years the pond turned completely around. There are GSF still in the pond but the BG dominate it completely in comparison.

100% GSF

Your more northern BOW may act differently though. Seems like I have heard more problems in the north than in the south with GSF being a ongoing problem. "Here" the big problem with them comes in if they get established in a pond before a person puts his prized 2" fingerling stockers. Then the big mouth GSF promptly eats all of them and proceeds to fill the pond with nice GSF fingerlings helped by the high protein fingerlings the pondmeister just stocked. But once there is an established BG/LMB population they do not seem to be a problem at all. That is "here". Your results may vary.

Here is another important thing to remember. The GSF and hybrids thereof are very aggressive to bite a hook. On some days my BG are just as aggressive so I catch mostly BG and a GSF once in a while. But on days when the BG are more persnickety a person might think I only have GSF and HBG in my pond. The GSF genetics are just enough more aggressive at biting a hook that when fishing gets a little tougher I will catch a disproportionate number of fish with GSF genetics. Another very common occurrence in my main pond when first starting to fish an area for BG is I will immediately catch a few GSF and hybrids. Then I will start catching BG. Basically the GSF genetics are aggressive enough I "fish them out" in that immediate area then the BG step up to the plate and start biting.

My point in that previous paragraph is that just because you caught those three fish right off do not assume all your fish are those same type. They just have been the ones willing to bite a hook that particular day. I get the same results when setting minnow traps in my forage pond. I will trap GSF fingerlings 20 to one to RES (no BG in forage pond). But if I throw a cast net I will get 20 RES fingerlings to one GSF. RES do not go into baited traps as readily as GSF so by trap numbers it looks like the pond is filled with GSF but it is not. Now that I have been trapping for a couple months I get mostly RES fingerlings in the trap because most of the GSF fingerlings have been removed. GSF just go after fish food more aggressively than the RES.

So don't get overly excited thinking you might not have anything other than GSF in your pond till you do some more checking.

P.S. Larger GSF can be caught out in deeper water with BG. But if I purposely want to catch a small GSF for my wife to use as CC bait (CC LOVE small GSF) I will cast very near shore or around cover. GSF like shallow water and cover.

Eric knows what he speaks of. I would go with his evaluation over mine.

I will say when I am hand feeding my fish the telltale sign I use in my population is the fin tipping. Fish swimming around in green water sometimes are hard to identify from the shore. But in a group of fish my BG will have solid color tails and GSF or hybrids with GSF in them will have yellow or less frequently reddish tipping on the fins. I can spot them easily in a group of fish feeding. One exception is I do have a small population of CNBG within my overall BG population and they will sometimes have a very slim white tipping of the tail fin. But it does not show up nearly as obvious at the yellow tipping of the GSF.

I have always speculated that I should be able to pick the GSF out from the bank by looking at the shape of the fish. GSF are more shaped like a bass and BG are taller more dish pan shaped. But something about being on the shore and looking downward into the water, all the fish look more elongated than when I catch them and have them in my hand. So the only definitive feature that I can consistently pick out the fish with GSF in them when on the bank looking into the water is seeing the fin tipping.

Good advice and info from snrub (John) above.

Hey all! I'm a little late here, but I want to thank you for your help identifying my fish pics and other advice on this. I'm not the type to lose my mind over having GSF in my pond so I'll just look at it as an opportunity to learn and figure something out (just wish I didn't pay so much for 'em). As you mentioned snrub, the introduction of a higher concentration of bigger BG seems to be something that you and others have had success with. I've actually been doing this anyway - glad to hear it's a sensible remedy.

My top goal with my pond was to have a pretty place where it's easy to catch fish. I work on the "pretty" part almost daily and at least the GSF are taking care of the "easy catch" part of my goal. LOL!!!

I'd feel bad had this happened to a more serious angler or tightly wound person. Thankfully, my YP have done well in this first yr.....including the one in the pic below. He/she was delicious!!!

John, I wish you the best on your hybridization plan. Sounds great!

Odd looking YP.

Hybridization plan???? LOL. No plan involved. Just the way it has turned out. Fortunately for me, like you with the GSF, it is not an earth shattering disappointment. I have learned to like the hybrids a lot. Mostly because they grow to a decent size fast and are easy to catch.

I guess I had considered creating some RESxGSF hybrids, but as it turned out I got some by accident so I never really specifically did anything to gain the hybrids. I just accidentally had the conditions for them to happen naturally in significant numbers.

Hey John,

Since you posted the last images of the RESXGSF, I've been noticing them in the BOWs I fish nearby. They occur in every BOW that has RES and GSF. There is one BOW in particular where they proliferate. I will catch maybe 6 of this hybrid to every other one that is pure. Several species are present there to include BG,LES, RES, and GSF. There are also a lot of bass in this BOW. The hybrids run larger than other sunfish but are thin. Nearly every one of them is greater than 6".

I've only caught one GSF there. I am kind of thinking they are just holding on by a thread. I figure the males are very vulnerable to the LMB during spawning season which may force the girls to seek other mates. They obviously prefer RES. Though I catch a lot more hybrids there, I don't think they are present in such relative numbers. They are just more aggressive at biting the hook. RESXGSF like popping bugs, nymphs/wooly boogers, and especially gambusia minnow imitations. When I fish with these I catch about 1 bass to every 4 hybrids ... and an occasional BG,RES, or LES.

Looking back, I think I have hastily identified this hybrid as BGXGSF when I caught them in the past. Should have been paying closer attentions . If one has RES and GSF, its seems this hybrid is likely to show up.

John, I've followed your journey since I joined PondBoss and you certainly deserve credit for many of the happy accidents that have come from it - including the RESxGSF. I love following your projects.

C&P, I'm guessing that you're referring to the faint vertical stripes in the YP pic. I have noticed that about 1 in 10 are really light like that. I've always assumed they are females that are well past the spawn and just don't carry much color, but I'm no expert. Maybe someone else has a theory. 90% of my perch look like the one below. I think they look pretty normal/healthy. I know they taste great!

I've occasionally entertained the idea of yellow perch in my pond. I know my wife, who's a Michigander, would sure love a few to eat from time to time. I just don't know how well they'd handle these tropical temps down here. If I knew for sure they'd thrive, I'd look into importing some 4-6" fish to stock this fall.

What's another species of fish gonna hurt in my little mutt pond!!?? I'm sure they'd help keep my YOY BG in check.

Mr. Cody is the perch expert and can weigh in here. There is a urban legend that YP need large bodies of water and deep water similar to walleye, but they do just fine in small mudpuddle type ponds as long as they don't overheat in summer.

Bill can tell you that there are southern strain (or warmer water tolerant) YP but it doesn't seem to be easy to figure out how to get your hands on them. It would help if the YP had a cold water refuge in the summer. In heavily aerated southern ponds when it is 93 degrees from the top of the pond to the bottom that may not work so well for them to avoid heat stress.

Yet, I believe many myths persist only because no one tries it. It should be fairly easy to source pellet trained YP in the Midwest (say southern IN?) but you would have to arrange for a cool weather shipment or special packing and overnight shipping if it is hot during the shipping day(s)

I think if we could work out how to make YP work in the southern pond it would be a huge market as they are very good eating, they are good predators of crayfish which many southern pond owners struggle to keep in check. They also can help the RES eat snails and are prolific spawners (at least in northern ponds) They are one of the first to spawn at ice out as well. If the stocker fish were big enough to escape predation then it would be a cool experiment.

Bump to see if Mr. Cody can help out here.