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#490773 - 05/27/18 08:30 AM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: snrub]
Shorty Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/28/05
Posts: 4241
Loc: Raymond, NE
I am thinking hybrid RESxBG with a heavy RES expression.

On the other hand it could be a pure RES with a damaged opercular tab, the red/orange area is thin and can easily be damaged. RES do nip on each others ear tabs and they can also get fungal infections when the water is cold. Did the other side look the same? I have seen a few RES that looked like that in my pond but the ear tab on the other side always looked normal.
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#490774 - 05/27/18 09:37 AM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: Shorty]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5326
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: Shorty
I am thinking hybrid RESxBG with a heavy RES expression.


I'm guessing the same.

Both sides of the tab are the same. You can see the red but the margin is thinner than one would expect on a fish this size and it is partially covered by a thin layer of translucent black that further hides the red portion.

Is shows up a little better in real life than the picture but the red tab is still very marginal.

I have had trouble in pictures showing the tab border well at times. When the fish flares its gills, sometimes it changes the angle enough the margin does not show up very well in pictures. I find this often in GSF or GSF hybrids. When the gills are closed and the tab up against the body it shows well but if the fish flares its gills when I snap the picture the margin does not always show up well. The fish will just not always hold a pose for me. frown

Same thing goes for dorsal fin extension. If I remember I will lightly tap the fish on one side with one finger and the dorsal fin will extend for the picture. Of course that also can cause them to jump off the table onto the ground. mad

If there was just more of a red/orange margin it would be a picture perfect RES.


Edited by snrub (05/27/18 09:53 AM)
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#490810 - 05/28/18 11:09 AM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: snrub]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19649
Loc: Miss.
I agree with Shorty !

Not just ear tab but pec fin looks hybrid to me also.
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#490830 - 05/28/18 06:51 PM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: snrub]
tubguy Offline


Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 148
Loc: Southern Indiana
https://i.imgur.com/uR9miRh.jpg

Shrub this looks similar to the RES that I catch out of my pond.I believe this fish is from my original stocking in October 2015. Do you think it has some GSF genetics? I do still have a few GSF even after culling over 250+.

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#490837 - 05/28/18 09:02 PM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: tubguy]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5326
Loc: SE Kansas
I would call it pure RES but I am also no expert. I see nothing that leads me to believe it is a hybrid.

Here is a picture of a RES I took out of my forage pond last night by cast net. Notice it has a very thin red opercular tab. Most of my RES have much more prominent red/orange borders. But I would also call this a pure RES. I see no other characteristics to make me think it is other than RES. There is just a lot of natural variation within species.

Be interesting to see what others think of both of our fish.


Attachments
20180527_185601.jpg (88 downloads)
Description: RES with a rather slim red border tab




Edited by snrub (05/28/18 09:04 PM)
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#490838 - 05/28/18 09:16 PM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: snrub]
Shorty Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/28/05
Posts: 4241
Loc: Raymond, NE
Snrub, your picture looks like a female RES with a thin color margin on the ear tab.
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#490840 - 05/28/18 10:08 PM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: snrub]
tubguy Offline


Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 148
Loc: Southern Indiana
Thanks John! I enjoy following your posts. If seems like I do experience a lot of variation in my fish. I hope to have some more fish pictures soon.

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#490841 - 05/28/18 10:31 PM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: snrub]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19649
Loc: Miss.
snrub on your pic I agree again with Shorty - female RES.
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#490912 - 05/30/18 12:17 AM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: ewest]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5326
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: ewest
snrub on your pic I agree again with Shorty - female RES.


Glad to get the confirmation from both of you because this one went down to my RES only pond.
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#493252 - 07/04/18 10:56 PM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: snrub]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5326
Loc: SE Kansas
I'm calling this a RESxGSF hybrid.

I filleted several GSF tonight and none of them have the intensity of orange on the ear tab this hybrid does. I know for a fact I have numerous RESxGSF hybrids because I have moved many from a pond that only has RES and GSF. No BG at all. So I know this cross is in this pond and I believe this is one of the transfers all grown up.

Because of the sun angle the GSF green cheek bars do not show up well in the picture but they were very evident in person. Guessing it about 8" long. Wife had a 5 3/4# CC on the table with the measure or it would have been pictured there.

This one met the fillet knife tonight.


Attachments
20180704_191335.jpg (430 downloads)
Description: RESxGSF hybrid




Edited by snrub (07/04/18 10:59 PM)
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#493266 - 07/05/18 10:06 AM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: snrub]
jpsdad Offline


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 247
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: snrub
I'm calling this a RESxGSF hybrid.

....

This one met the fillet knife tonight.


Handsome fish. Fat with good proportions. It is great to finally see one. Yours is the first and only color photo of this particular hybrid I have seen. Bet it was tasty. I know this may sound wierd, but I like the appearance of this fish better than its parents (or at least better than straight up GSF). I cant say that for BGxGSF hybrids which to me look a wee bit creepy.


Edited by jpsdad (07/05/18 10:08 AM)

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#493270 - 07/05/18 10:19 AM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: jpsdad]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5326
Loc: SE Kansas
Thanks! I thought it was a good looking fish also.

Kind of hated to fillet it, but with an over abundance of forage fish in this pond almost everything forage fish wise caught that is big enough gets filleted or if small gets transferred to a trash pond or cut the tail off for a LMB snack. I try to harvest quite a lot of fish to keep the biomass of the pond at reasonable levels to prevent a fish kill. I feed so the pond produces lots of pounds of fish.

The ones that go back into the pond are large male BG and CNBG, all RES, a select few large female BG if they look like they have outstanding genetics (but most females get filleted) and once in a while a large GSF if it looks like it has the potential to reach trophy size.

If I ever get the LMB population up to speed not as many will fall under the knife. I would really like to be catching lots of 1-2# LMB but there are few to be found in my pond. I did catch about a 4 pound LMB yesterday, but luckily it flipped off my barbless 1/64 oz jig before I could land it. In this hot weather I was glad it got away before I got it out of the water.

It was a really good fishing day yesterday.


Edited by snrub (07/05/18 10:22 AM)
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#493273 - 07/05/18 10:58 AM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: snrub]
jpsdad Offline


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 247
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: snrub
Thanks! I thought it was a good looking fish also.
...
It was a really good fishing day yesterday.


Glad to hear the fishing was good. I've always thought that RES yield more filet for their weight than BG but don't know for sure. What are your thoughts? That fish just looks to be the perfect size and dimensions to yield a very good filet.

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#493276 - 07/05/18 12:28 PM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: snrub]
jpsdad Offline


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 247
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: snrub


I also get hybrids out of my sediment pond. There it is harder for me to tell for sure if they are CNBG/GSF or RES/GSF.



They might most likely be RES/GSF as this paper suggests. Within this is referenced:

"Attempts to simultaneously produce R x G and B x G F1 hybrids in the same pond by parental stocking have not been successful (Lewis and Heidinger 1978). The crosses always went in the direction of the parental redear sunfish."

This pertains to crosses of female GSF where the female GSF have the choice of RES or BG males.

Been looking through the thread and see you've posted many other photos. This is an interesting hybrid.


Edited by jpsdad (07/05/18 01:31 PM)

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#493331 - 07/05/18 11:29 PM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: jpsdad]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5326
Loc: SE Kansas
Interesting article.

In my sediment pond the initial stocking was 175 fingerling RES and 100 CNBG (FHM had been added earlier as soon as there was water in the pond).

According to that article most if not all the hybrids produced in that pond should be RESxGSF. Not sure where the GSF even came from as none were supposedly stocked. The sediment pond gets high water flows at times and is turbid with the high flows then clears up. I have assumed the high numbers of hybrids produced in the sediment pond was due to the limited partner availibility of the GSF along with turbid water (to perhaps make species determination more difficult).

In my forage pond supposedly only RES (and FHM) were stocked but in this stocking the fingerlings I got were terrible. I hand sorted them and they contained numerous hybrids with GSF parentage. I sorted out all the hybrids and put in the pond only the ones large enough I could positively identify as pure RES. But that was early in my pondmeister days and I was not nearly as proficient at separating out pure RES from hybrids or GSF as I am today. So either I let a GSF or hybrid slip through (very possible) or however a GSF got in my sediment pond they also got into my forage pond. Whatever the case was, I also ended up producing lots of RESxGSF hybrids in my forage pond. As I raised fingerlings I transferred both the RES and the hybrids over to my main pond.

So I know my main pond has numerous hybrids with RES parentage.

I was under the assumption that most of the hybrids from my sediment pond were CNBGxGSF but if the article you linked is accurate they should mostly be RESxGSF. I do not really believe that though because I often see in the hybrids the wide vertical bands that are more similar to my CNBG than a RES.

So without some DNA testing I may never know.

I do know that I like the hybrids, whatever the parentage is. They grow well (pellet hogs just like GSF), fillet well and fight well. Early on in my main 3 acre pond I had a small number of hybrids from my original stocking (was supposed to be all BG but 30 or 40 hybrids slipped in the stock). I pretty much fished them out (the article is correct about hybrids being easily caught) and transferred them to my old 1 acre pond (kind of a trash fish pond), thinking they were undesirable. About the time I could not catch any more I decided I really did like the hybrids after all. I could always catch them when nothing else wanted to bite.

So when I started getting naturally produced hybrid fingerlings from my forage and sediment ponds, I transferred them to my main pond along with pure RES and CNBG. So I have went from trying to get rid of hybrids in my main pond to stocking them on purpose.

Keep in mind I like fishing for pan fish. If I never had a LMB over 2# that would be ok with me. So the hybrids as pan fish go are just fine with me.

I can not tell you anything about the fillets on a RES. I think I cleaned one a couple years back that got gut hooked but because of low initial stocking of RES in my main pond I always return them to the water. The idea of having RES and raising fingerlings in my forage pond and sediment ponds was to increase the number of RES in my main pond by supplemental stocking transfers. It is working because I am starting to catch a RES once in a while in my main pond now.


Edited by snrub (07/05/18 11:38 PM)
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#494357 - 07/30/18 12:15 AM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: snrub]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5326
Loc: SE Kansas
Been trapping some GSF out of my forage pond and run across some hybrids too so I took the time to do some side by side pictures of similar size fish. The fish pictured are in the 3-4" range which is the size my minnow trap with the 1.5" opening catches the most of.

How do I know the hybrid is a RESxGSF? Those are the only two species in my forage pond. No BG stocked and none ever caught.

The hybrids got transferred to my main pond. The GSF get their tails cut off and fed to a couple pet LMB and a half dozen CC in the main pond that hang around my dock waiting for me to throw them in one at a time to them. Kind of fun watching a LMB hammer a 4" GSF but they have to be quick to beat the CC to them.

Their bellies are so extended because they are stuffed full of Optimal Hand Toss pellets that I use to bait the minnow trap.


Attachments
20180710_201819.jpg (99 downloads)
Description: hybrid RESxGSF top, GSF bottom

20180710_201841.jpg (84 downloads)
Description: Same fish as above only right side, GSF top RESxGSF hybrid bottom

20180710_204306.jpg (62 downloads)
Description: Second pair of fish GSF top, RESxGSF hybrid bottom

20180710_204320.jpg (82 downloads)
Description: Same second set pair but the hybrid on top this time




Edited by snrub (07/30/18 12:19 AM)
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#495343 - 08/25/18 11:26 PM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: snrub]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5326
Loc: SE Kansas
This one might be a RESxGSF hybrid. Left and right side pictures. Notice length of pectoral fin and the orange dot most noticeable on the left side of the fish.

Just for comparison the third picture is of a pure GSF. The boards the fish are laying on are 2x6 so about 5.5" wide for size comparison. Note the length of the pectoral fin on the GSF compared to the hybrid.

Edit: Last picture was taken right after catching the fish. The first two pictures were taken after the fish had been on ice just before filleting it.


Attachments
20180825_194731.jpg (100 downloads)
Description: potential RESxGSF right side

20180825_194922.jpg (62 downloads)
Description: Same fish left side

20180825_200305.jpg (92 downloads)
Description: Pure GSF for comparison

20180825_192347.jpg (84 downloads)
Description: Picture at time I caught the fish




Edited by snrub (08/25/18 11:32 PM)
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#495349 - 08/26/18 05:58 AM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: snrub]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
Moderator
Lunker

Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 13657
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
Interesting fish.
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#495373 - 08/26/18 01:54 PM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: Dave Davidson1]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5326
Loc: SE Kansas
Dave I might not have even noticed or thought about the pedigree of hybrids except I have my forage pond that has only RES and GSF (have never stocked or caught a BG out of the forage pond) and I know there have been numerous hybrids from this pond that I transferred to my main pond. So unless they all got eaten after being transferred, I am pretty certain at least a small portion of my hybrid sunfish in my main pond are RES hybrids.

The trick is just figuring out which ones when I catch them.

Another interesting thing from my perspective is early on I got quite a few RESxGSF hybrids from that forage pond. This year I have trapped lots of GSF fingerlings and trapped and cast netted numerous RES fingerlings but hardly ever see a hybrid. So something earlier on caused a condition to favor more hybrid production. I suspect it was that I maybe only had very few GSF so they only had limited partners to spawn with, but that is just speculation.


Edited by snrub (08/26/18 01:59 PM)
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#495377 - 08/26/18 02:55 PM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: snrub]
Mike Whatley Online   content


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 591
Loc: Louisiana
Has your visibility changed since last year's spawning...ie: was it less clear then, as compared to this year? I've read that often contributes to crossing.

Also, during last year's spawning, if you were short on either species' breeding age males or females, as compared to the other, that may have had something to do with it too. Not knowing which direction the cross was made.

You probably have a better idea on how these crosses occur than I do tho.
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.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#495382 - 08/26/18 04:04 PM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: Mike Whatley]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5326
Loc: SE Kansas
From what I have read (definitely not from what I "know") the most likely "natural" cross is RES male x GSF female. It appears the GSF females are more likely to be flusies than the RES females. grin The opposite cross can be done in controlled environment but usually requires human intervention. That is my understanding so I assume (dangerous) that my RES crosses are that direction.

As far as turbidity, yes there have been changes. Early on in this ponds life there was a lot of clay around and every rain made it turbid. So for the first year or two there were periods of turbidity mostly dependent on rain patterns. I lined most of the pond with crushed limestone so as the pond developed and got a good algae bloom it was much less turbid and any turbidity was because of algae instead of suspended clay. So that could explain the unusually high number of hybrids produced earlier in the ponds life. I get lots of hybrids produced in my sediment pond also and it suffers from seasonal turbidity because of agricultural runoff and sediment. So in my opinion, turbidity does play an important role.

One other interesting thing that may affect hybrid production going forward. My daughter is in the process of building a small house 30 feet from my forage pond. In that process we have dug up a lot of clay for septic lines, water line and electric line. Now that pond just the other day again became very turbid because of this runoff from a recent rain and probably will continue to be affected through next spring after rainfall events. So it will be interesting to see if I start seeing more hybrids again as the RES do their late season spawn this fall and into the spawn next spring.


Edited by snrub (08/26/18 04:09 PM)
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#495390 - 08/26/18 08:04 PM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: snrub]
Mike Whatley Online   content


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 591
Loc: Louisiana
I would be interested to hear what happens.

I'd almost bet you'll see an increase in hybrid offspring again, with that cloudy water blindfolding your male RES to all those lovestruck "flusies"!!

They do make some pretty babies, tho!!


Edited by Mike Whatley (08/26/18 08:05 PM)
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.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#495392 - 08/26/18 09:48 PM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: Mike Whatley]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5326
Loc: SE Kansas
Funny, soon after posting my reply we went out fishing and I caught a number of hybrids that I think may be RESxGSF. They look different than my regular CNBGxGSF hybrids which I also have quite a number of. The CNBGxGSF all came out of my sediment pond where I stocked CNBG and RES.

Pictures of the candidates below. Last picture is of a pure GSF for comparison.


Attachments
20180826_172740.jpg (81 downloads)
20180826_174304.jpg (85 downloads)
Description: fish 2 potential RESxGSF

20180826_174641.jpg (82 downloads)
Description: fish 3 potential RESxGSF

20180826_174523.jpg (57 downloads)
Description: a genuine pure GSF for comparison




Edited by snrub (08/26/18 10:14 PM)
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#495395 - 08/26/18 10:25 PM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: snrub]
Mike Whatley Online   content


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 591
Loc: Louisiana
Comparing these pics to the first, these appear to be carrying more of the RES traits than GSF (more slope to the nose and the obvious red tag), but you can definitely see GSF in there too.

Yup....pretty babies, indeed!!!
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epidomy of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, FHM, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia and apparently, now crappie.

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#495448 - 08/27/18 01:36 PM Re: RESxGSF hybrid [Re: snrub]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19649
Loc: Miss.
Any chance there are PS genes in the mix? Interesting fish for sure. What about 3 way crosses? Third fish is different. Look at the tail margin light edging - only in CNBG.
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