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My pond has a lot of cnbg and has been that way from its first stocking. So, I have read that one never remove bg from a trophy lmb pond but I have a lot of bg (7") that are larger than my average lmb can eat, and their numbers are high. I also see a lot of larger sized cnbg also. And a year ago Todd Overton suggested that I remove about 50 of those mid sized males from the pond. So, because of the high numbers I am thinking I might need to remove another 50 this year, maybe more. I think, it is to improve the cnbg spawning to provide more of the right sized cnbg for lmb forage. Thoughts anyone? OH! I might need to reduce the total fish mass in the pond and this would help that also. It's hard to figure total mass in a pond, I think, A SWAG I guess smile

Last edited by TGW1; 05/26/18 07:03 AM.

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Tracy,

Sorry about that long winded post on big bluegill crazy ... I just noticed that you are managing for trophy LMB.

I once wondered how a female LMB scenario might work where 8 LB bass were achieved 6 years after stocking. The scenario involved yearly stocking of Female LMB at 2LB initial weight(this weight to prevent consumption by trophy LMB). The scenario is catch and release assuming no mortality until the 8 LB goal was reached where upon they were harvested. Below is a tabular depiction:

LENGTH__NUMBER/ACRE____NUMBER___WEIGHT/FISH____GROSS WEIGHT
15.4_________2___________2__________2.00__________4.00
17.4_________2___________2__________3.00__________6.00
19.0_________2___________2__________4.00__________8.00
20.4_________2___________2__________5.00__________10.00
21.5_________2___________2__________6.00__________12.00
22.6_________2___________2__________7.00__________14.00
23.5_________2___________2__________8.00__________16.00
________________________14________________________70.00

So this is a 1 acre pond with Annually stocked 2LB female LMB at 2 fish/year. For a pond able to sustain 70 LBs of LMB this is a dream pond with 8 fish/acre exceeding 5LBs. The 7LB + fish are certainly able to consume 7" bluegill (and possibly can't achieve 8 LBs without them).

Now if the growth exceeds 1 lbs annually the 8LB goal could be achieved sooner or the number stocked might be increased to 3 but no more than 4 for sure. One thing I take from this is that it probably isn't possible to help a trophy LMB fishery by managing bluegill harvest. Only the harvest of LMB will help. So here are a couple of thoughts. Because male LMB reproduce at 10+ inches, harvest as many as you can. If you are able to identify sex. Try to select two females/Acre of the 16" class each year and mark them with a fin clip. Always release these when caught in the future.

Harvest any bass greater than 16" which is not marked. If the harvested bass is marked, harvest when your trophy size goal is reached. If you have a very large trophy size goal (ie > 8 LBs) you may need to supplement forage or reduce the number of bass you select for fin clipping.

Another option may be to purchase two/acre of 16" female LMB and fin clip before stocking each year. Harvest every bass you catch except for fin clipped LMB less than your trophy goal weight. If these fish are selected for growth .... so much the better.

Last edited by jpsdad; 03/10/24 08:54 AM.

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Tracy, what other fish do you have? I assume that TFS didn't survive last winter...


7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Frank, LMB, HSB, Tp, Bg and Res. And yes lost the TFS this winter. I don't bass fish the pond but maybe once every 60 to 90 days and then only a 2 to 6 fish sample. The lmb are in the 2.5 lb(newly added feed trained lmb) to 4 lb range(Florida's) with one caught during the spawn that was right at 7lbs. There should be around 3 lmb in that 7# range based on the last two shock surveys. Most all of the lmb caught last time out were in the 4# range at 16.5" to 17", fat and sassy. There are a lot of bg in the 6" size for them to feed on. But when feeding the bg they will grow pretty fast to where they will be in the 7" range which is beyond mouth gape of most the lmb. And that is where I think I could reduce the 7" cnbg males and maybe produce a better spawn of cnbg for more forage in the correct size to feed the 4 lb lmb. So, when removing the 7"cnbg I would also be removing some of the pounds per acre of fish. One more note, I plan on a survey this coming fall (Nov.) for culling the lmb as needed. Does the bg plan look ok or should I just leave things alone? Remember Todd suggested I remove some 50 bg last year and I did remove 47 last spring.

Last edited by TGW1; 05/27/18 06:31 AM.

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Tracy,

As you mentioned the biomass of the bluegill is difficult figure but it sounds like you have better handle on what bass are in there. How many are 4-7 lbs and 2.5 lbs? Got that you are managing for trophies but what is your goal in terms of number of trophies and bass biomass?


Last edited by jpsdad; 05/27/18 09:28 AM.

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7 lb LMB! grin

Seriously, sounds like you are doing really well. The TP should help feed the LMB and take some pressure off the BG. TP have more fusiform shape so LMB can eat larger ones than BG.


7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Tracy,

After your last comment and researching your posts I see that you have a very intensive management plan and a 5 acre BOW. One can't manage a 5 acre BOW as I suggested with no more fishing pressure than your BOW is getting. Also perhaps the scenario of 8 fish per acre > 5 lbs is be well below your goals. So take what I posted with a grain of salt.

I'll leave the comments there for others with 1 acre and less BOWs who might want to achieve trophy sized bass from their ponds depending upon the natural fertility of their BOWs.

Last edited by jpsdad; 03/10/24 08:58 AM.

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jpsdad, My pond plan was for a 6 acre pond but wound up with a pond just a little over 3 acres. We ran out of clay, it was pinched out as we approached the bayou. Now, as far as pond management goes, it has been a learning lesson nearly everyday. Many here have helped me out with guidance and suggestions. It's been fun and/or frustrating when trying to grow some nice trophy sized lmb. Ha! I thought it was dig a hole, put fish in and there you go. But not been that way at my place for the last 4 yrs. I have had Otters, Eagles, Droughts, leaks, Water issues, and now after all that, I am finally seeing some nice lmb, nice water, nice cnbg. I have still not caught a nice RES, they have to be there(I put alot in) smile


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Tracy,

It is difficult to grow trophy LMB in a small pond. The size of your BOW certainly provides additional advantage. I can see you are having a journey which despite its challenges has also been very enjoyable and successful as well. I am living your dream to some extent vicariously, that is because, I don't own my own BOW. Even so, its great to read of the experiences of the members here and someday I hope to post the building or acquisition of my own pond.

Last edited by jpsdad; 03/10/24 08:59 AM.

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Originally Posted By: jpsdad
Tracy,

It is difficult to grow trophy LMB in a small pond...

How so? Are they difficult to grow, or difficult to catch?


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I think both. In most small ponds (less than an acre) they would comprise a small minority of the biomass so rareness and the wisdom that comes with age obviously make them difficult to catch. Bass live a long time and so there is always the chance some specimens will reach trophy size. Particularly survivors of the first stocking. To me trophy size is 8lbs or larger. I have never caught one. I've spent a lot of time fishing with bluegills for bait and so I think its likely that few are in the waters, if any, I regularly fish that way. Even so, I wouldn't argue that there aren't any even if there are none.

A few days ago I read a comment by Bill Cody in this thread by Texas1/2Acre

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=463402#Post463402

Specifically "LMB will survive, reproduce, and efficiently control BG in 1/2 acre. I see that occur many times in northern ponds and it will work anywhere in the US with management. I commonly see it successful for your intended goals. You won't have a lot of LMB and they may not get much bigger than 2-3 lbs with maybe the rare 4 pounder depending on how you harvest/manage the fish. "

When I read it I thought "That is quite typical of the small ponds I fish except they are generally an acre give or take a few thousand square feet".


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Al, I laugh when pondering about difficult to grow. Can be! Otters seem to find their way to the pond every so often, Cormorants (almost a hundred one time), low survival with the original or first lmb fingerling stocking just to name a few.

Difficult to catch, smile Can be! Our first meeting when you mentioned high stocking rates of cnbg can make it harder to catch lmb. At that time I was not aware of your pond knowledge, but I am now. Thanks for all your help!! Was happy to see you become a moderator here. You know, I added some feed trained lmb to the pond because I wanted to improve catch rates. I am not sure if catch rates were slow due to the number of lmb in the pond or if it was because of excess forage or because they were all Florida's. Shock surveys are great but I know they will not shock up every fish in the pond. Leaving one to wonder just how many are really there.


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I would think that otters might target large or intermediate size fish specifically. That must mean war!

That paper on female only had some interesting statistics on fishing effort required to catch a 4.5# LMB:

In Georgia, it required a tournament angler an average of 305 hours to catch a bass 2.27 kg or larger (Quertermus 2013). Anglers were most successful at catching fish of this size in Lake Seminole, needing only 78 h to accomplish. In comparison, our angler survey on Ocmulgee PFA showed that anglers caught a 2.27-kg largemouth bass in 3.76 h. (Ocmulgee PFA is one the BOWs of the female only study).

The biomass of fish in the Female only BOW is skewed in favor of large fish. It is the number of large fish that makes it far easier to catch one. I am not sure what standard should be applied to define "trophy water" but perhaps fishing effort to catch a trophy might be a good start. The day I caught my best LMB with my friend in his BOW it took about 5 hours effort to catch a bass over 4.50 #. Only one was caught. I remember at the time I was thinking "I'd caught 10 or more fish by now in the ponds I fish". Even so, after catching that fish I gained a deeper appreciation for his passion of large LMB.

To be sure, it is certainly possible to have cake and eat it but to have vanilla cake and chocolate cake in the same BOW at the same time isn't sustainable.


Last edited by jpsdad; 05/30/18 02:43 PM.

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Tracy, Mother Nature has thrown all she has at you. At some point, it's got to turn around in your favor.

I really try to follow George's lead, so I try not to give advice, but to share personal observations and experiences, and I'm still singularly focused on CNBG recruitment after 5 years. That was the advice I was given by Todd, and until my smaller CNBG numbers change his mind, I won't change my plans. If he told me to remove 50 mid sized CNBG last year, I would continue on that course until he told me differently. The results of the electroshocking this fall should let you both know how to proceed. We're lucky enough to have one of the best fishery biologists around, so it makes sense to me to follow his advice. Todd, Clint, and Walt know your fish, your water, your interlopers, and your goals.


Stay the course.


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Tracy don't let the unknown haunt you ! Keep at it. There is a lot of unknown but also some very good signs in your lake. I may get in trouble for writing this but here goes anyway. I have meet and worked with a lot of very good fishery scientists. I liked 95% of them and thought they knew their trade , some better than others. I think I know a little but am positive I still have much more to learn. All those Fishery Scientists I mentioned would tell you face to face that they still have a lot to learn. Not a one of them have all the answers and they would be the first to tell you that. Having said that I have on occasion provided the same set of basic fact info and goals (electroshock , seine , visual and creel data over several years) to several and each provided well reasoned answers and analysis. Here is the catch - everyone of them gave different answers. Dave Willis was the best Fisheries Scientist I have known. The trait that made him stand out over others was his desire to learn. His most used answer after contemplating the info was " we just don't really know" . Then he would find the answer or answers as far as possible.


Those are the same traits that make good pond owner/managers. Be wary of easy quick answers to complex questions. Mother nature is 50 moves ahead of us on a multi-level chess game. You will not get it perfect but perfect should never be the enemy of good. Enjoy the challenge and most of all the journey to good ! You don't need perfect ! Perfect is an unbalanced state of circumstances controlled by Mother Nature.

Because of the loss of the TFS I doubt you are at carrying capacity. I doubt that you need to remove 7 in BG for capacity reasons. The TFS will be replaced soon with BG and tilapia now that there is room. FWIW TFS are a very good forage high in what LMB need. However they are best for 1 to 4 lb LMB not as good for 6+ lb LMB. From an energetics standpoint big fish need big meals. Those 7 in BG are perfect for 21+ in LMB. You need a BG population analysis - you know enough to make one now. The size where there are to many BG is the size LMB that are missing. Lots of 7 inch BG = not to many 22 in + LMB. They will get there in time and need the bigger forage. Todds advice was based on TFS being in the mix which they are not now.

Last edited by ewest; 05/30/18 02:01 PM.















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I just don't understand why Tracy should be disappointed. Cormorants taking a fair amount of his first stocking may be more of a blessing than it seems. That stocking has grown to trophy size by now in part because there was little competition for them. If it takes Tracy 4-6 hours to catch a trophy fish from his BOW ... who in their right mind would complain about that? Many people strive a lifetime and have never caught what is already in his BOW. Such water is rare and he may already be able to do just that. It's not bad news that it takes half a day to catch a large fish, the good news is that he can and it means he can spend more time fishing. smile

Last edited by jpsdad; 03/10/24 09:01 AM.

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Eric, I have learned there are no quick answer's or solutions when it comes to growing large lmb my pond. Of course, I learned all that from you and Al and Highflyer, Todd and Walt just to name a few. Oh! and Bob Lusk too. Like Al said, Mother Nature can throw a lot of stuff at you. But, right now the pond is doing the best it ever has and the water looks to be exactly where Bob Lusk said it needed to be during the summer and this summer looks to be a hot one already. One more thing is I expect to see some lmb in the 8lb range next spring, not many of them but still a couple or three of them from the Original stocking. That is if I don't have a fish kill like DD1 speaks of. And that was one of the question's. Like I said earlier, some say not to remove any bg from a trophy lmb pond, but man oh man there are a lot of them, so I was thinking I might need to remove some of the 7" males to reduce biomass and improve the spawn or fry survival with the larger cnbg. Hoping to produce more cnbg in the 5" range. It might be like what was said" we really just don't know". Hay! I am not looking for things to be perfect, I just want a place where someone's kid might catch their lmb of a life time. smile Right now, I don't allow any fishing unless there is a supervised kid or two fishing.

Last edited by TGW1; 05/31/18 08:06 AM.

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" Hay! I am not looking for things to be perfect, I just want a place where someone's kid might catch their lmb of a life time. :)"

This is great and it encapsulates what you are trying to achieve. It sounds to me like you don't want vanilla (lots of small bass) nor chocolate (a few very large fish). You want the swirl cone where a kid can catch a memorable bass in one outing which memory will last his/her lifetime.

At least that how I infer your goals from what you wrote. Even so, I am really not sure I do understand. I have however tried and I guess its my numerical and practical perspective on things which prevents me from doing so as well as I'd have liked to. Ewest makes some great points in the following post all of which I agree. I really admire your motivation. May everything you experience on this journey bring fulfillment.


Last edited by jpsdad; 05/31/18 01:21 PM.

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To be clear Tracy has a very , very good lake. He works hard at it and will be successful and has already been successful. Like most of us perfect results are a goal. I don't want any reader/pond enthusiast to get discouraged because perfect is not accomplished. Its about the journey to getting good/better results (as defined by the owner).

Tracy do you have a guess on the amount of bio-mass the now missing TFS represented? That is how much room you have/had open. It can be filled (and will be) by the remaining fish. The key is how do you want that space filled , by what and to achieve what goals. The loss may well be a blessing. Those TFS were great for feeding 2 lb LMB but now you have room for larger forage to feed the 4-6+ lb class of LMB , if that is the goal. Manage the forage to meet the predator goals. Harvest accordingly.
















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Originally Posted By: ewest
To be clear Tracy has a very , very good lake. He works hard at it and will be successful and has already been successful. Like most of us perfect results are a goal. I don't want any reader/pond enthusiast to get discouraged because perfect is not accomplished. Its about the journey to getting good/better results (as defined by the owner).

Tracy do you have a guess on the amount of bio-mass the now missing TFS represented? That is how much room you have/had open. It can be filled (and will be) by the remaining fish. The key is how do you want that space filled , by what and to achieve what goals. The loss may well be a blessing. Those TFS were great for feeding 2 lb LMB but now you have room for larger forage to feed the 4-6+ lb class of LMB , if that is the goal. Manage the forage to meet the predator goals. Harvest accordingly.


Eric, I am at least a year behind Tracy at my BOW, my big LMB are in 2 to 4 lb range though with good RW. The 2-3 lb are feed trained N LMB, 4 lb is original stocked Fla LMB.

I've been reluctant to stock TFS due to infertility, but that appears to be much improved this year, viz now down to 30 inches. Would it make sense to go ahead now?

As for Gizzard shad, how large would the LMB need to be for this to be a reasonable move? Could N LMB ever get big enough to handle a 12 inch Gizzard shad?


7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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As someone who has talked & worked a bit with Tracy, I can honestly say that he's well earned his success. Despite the unexpected, which pondowners have to expect(!), he is achieving his goals.

The biggest thing is not to get too discouraged when things go wrong, as they will sometimes. Listen to the experts, learn from mother nature, adjust as necessary. And help each other, we're all in the same boat!


7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Eric, trying to figure out the Biomass I lost when the cold water killed of the TFS is at best a SWAG. Maybe I can describe what was there prior to the die off. March 1st 2017 we did a e survey and as the boat moved along the shoreline we would see around a hundred 2" Tfs float to the surface every 10 to 15'. Total shoreline is around 1900' so using 1900' divided by every 15', comes up with 12,666 TFS lost. This would not consider the TFS that were around other structure off from the shoreline so I would say I most likely lost around 15,000 TFS total. And the number is a pretty realistic number I think. TFS were in the 2" size, a nice size for a 2# lmb but a larger sized TFS would have been better. So, it was great at the time but today I think they would be to small to feed lmb for fast growth. I Talked with Todd Overton a couple of months ago about replacing the TFS with Gizzards and he was not a fan of doing it in my pond. We also discussed adding 90lbs GSH along with Tp but after listening closely, the best I could, to what he was saying I decided to go with just the Tp. We added 15lbs per acre and I am hoping the Tp fry will take up the TFS space. I am concerned the 6" Tp might just become food for the lmb that are in the pond now, so we shall see this coming fall.


I think most all of us want a Perfect Pond (isn't there a book with that title?). Can I get there? I would say, Trying to do so is not easy. Can it be done? Maybe! A perfect pond for me would be different for what others might call a perfect pond. And even if I got close to achieving my goals, I don't think it will stay that way for very long. I Don't want to discourage anyone, I am just reporting what I have seen at my place. And right now at this moment it has some nice lmb and hsb in the pond. The only thing right now is when you catch either one today with the high water temps I will lose that fish whether it is an hsb or an lmb. Looking at George's pure O2 setup for fish recovery and need to take that step if I am going to allow fishing at the pond during summer months.

Last edited by TGW1; 06/01/18 07:06 AM.

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Tracy, let me see if I can find my post about my portable O2 rig. It's my version of George's rig.

George's rig is very simple and inexpensive to set up, and he ALWAYS gave his HSB a soak when they were caught. He used a Craigslist medical O2 bottle that he could get refilled at any medical supply place, 1/4" aquarium air hose, an aquarium stone, a 40 quart ice chest, and a small amount of salt. I don't remember if George added frozen water bottles or not.


My Rig

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Thanks Al, that is the system that I should have if was going to fish during the summer. Like most everyone that has posted summer temps, it's been hot. Like others, I don't recall the weather or the ponds surface temps being so high during the first part of June. Another thing is I am seeing small schools of fry that sure look to be lmb fry. They are running in packs of 30 or so, and are shaped like a bass and are about a half to 1 inch long. They also swim different in the water column than the other fry I have seen over the past 4 yrs. So, I am pretty sure I had lmb spawn this year. Seamed late in the spring for bedding bass but I did have males guarding nest in mid April. I believe this has been my first time for a bass spawn. It took about 3 yrs for that to happen and with all the cnbg, I am not sure I will get any fry survival, guess we will see this fall. Crazy spring and summer this year.


Eric, I decided to leave the cnbg alone other than a few to eat now and then. I will try to get a pic of the size I have been eating. I am not looking for trophy cnbg, so if they get to where there are to many and they stunt, then that is just more food for the lmb. They wont stunt when we feed them with one feeder per acre, will they?


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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,861
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Tracy, I think you're getting good advice re stocking gizzard shad, at least for this year.

I had some golden shiners stocked with my feed trained bass, but my situation was almost the opposite of yours: loads of LMB reproduction and too many small bass. Since shiners love eggs, what was wise in my BOW would have been unwise for your BOW.

Do you still have any birds hanging around?

Last edited by anthropic; 06/02/18 01:12 PM.

7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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