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#374020 - 04/26/14 04:56 PM Building our pond in NE Missouri.
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1194
Loc: NE Missouri
I've been more of a lurker than poster, but I am getting a little closer to building (actually having it built) a pond.
Got some good advice from the new member intro thread, and had the guys out from the USDA to check out the potential pond site. We are looking at a one acre pond with about eight acres drainage.
No financial help from USDA, because the pond will be in the woods.
Getting some test holes dug soon, looking for no rock or gravel, and good clay.
I'll attach a few pics of the potential pond site.
Two from the possible dam site (one from each side) and one from the inlet side looking towards the possible dam site.

FYI, the pictures do not accurately show the slope of the hills. It will easily be 12-18 feet deep at the dam.

Left side: (dam)


Right side: (dam)



Inlet center, towards dam:



Ok, now for the question.. If I get someone out fairly soon, with a backhoe, how many, and what location do I need to look at for test holes? And how deep?

And, if the test holes look ok, is it worth it to bring in a pond expert, or have my neighbor, who's got a huge cat dozer, and is retired from running a dozer for 30+ years, and has built many, many ponds (he says.)

I want this pond to hold fish, be "ok" for swimming, but most of all I want it to hold water, and handle big rains safely..

One other question.. Would it be worth it to have someone come in for the timber?

Any help and advice is appreciated.

Thanks
Jeff



Edited by SetterGuy (06/29/15 07:16 AM)
_________________________
3 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

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#374024 - 04/26/14 05:37 PM Re: Picking a pond builder [Re: SetterGuy]
esshup Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24026
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
Just a few notes - I have a lot of catching up to do from being out of town for a few days.

Look in the local paper or the yellow pages for a timber buyer. Have him come out and give you an estimate.

Ask to see the ponds that the neighbor dug, and talk to the owners. Ask them if they are happy with their ponds, and if they would do do anything different. Find out how old their ponds are, and ask them what their goals were for having a pond dug.

Welcome to the forum!
_________________________
www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#374066 - 04/27/14 06:20 AM Re: Picking a pond builder [Re: SetterGuy]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1194
Loc: NE Missouri
There's timber buyers near by, I'll check them out. I just didn't know if they would be interested in bringing equipment in to clear trees from a one to two acre site. I'll find out.
How about my question on test holes? How many, where, and how deep? I want to give myself the highest probability of a non leaking pond. Within reason..
Thanks
Jeff


Edited by SetterGuy (04/27/14 06:22 AM)
_________________________
3 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

Top
#374101 - 04/27/14 03:05 PM Re: Picking a pond builder [Re: SetterGuy]
Bing Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 05/03/02
Posts: 1598
Loc: Fayette County Illinois
Here's a thought. Contact the forestry division in your state NRCS and see if either they can advise you on harvest potential, or can recommend a timber consultant who, for either a fee or a percentage, will evaluate the timber and send bids to timber buyers who are approved by the state. Competitive bidding tends to get higher bids. Also, if you go that route the consultant will make sure they cut only what they should and pay in advance. Our consultants generally get 5% of the sale, only after the timber buyer pays. Without trying to insult anyone, timber buyers are often known for absolutely low balling bids and failure to pay.
_________________________
And now for a lil mechanical engineering....I'm going to put a rear end in my recliner!

Sushi is fish for men who do not know how to build a fire.

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#374199 - 04/28/14 07:41 AM Re: Picking a pond builder [Re: Bing]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1194
Loc: NE Missouri
Originally Posted By: Bing
Here's a thought. Contact the forestry division in your state NRCS and see if either they can advise you on harvest potential, or can recommend a timber consultant who, for either a fee or a percentage, will evaluate the timber and send bids to timber buyers who are approved by the state. Competitive bidding tends to get higher bids. Also, if you go that route the consultant will make sure they cut only what they should and pay in advance. Our consultants generally get 5% of the sale, only after the timber buyer pays. Without trying to insult anyone, timber buyers are often known for absolutely low balling bids and failure to pay.


Thanks, it'd be worth the fees for sure to get some help with selling and managing the timber.
_________________________
3 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

Top
#374200 - 04/28/14 07:42 AM Re: Picking a pond builder [Re: SetterGuy]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1194
Loc: NE Missouri
Is there a hall of wisdom area, or frequently asked questions thread.
(In regards to test holes for dam building.)
_________________________
3 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

Top
#374212 - 04/28/14 08:52 AM Re: Picking a pond builder [Re: SetterGuy]
esshup Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24026
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
The test holes will give you an idea of what to expect. Sort of, if they are dug in the area where the dam will be built, and if they are dug as deep as the bottom of the core trench will be.

Moving dirt is like opening presents. You'll never know (for sure) what you will find until it's completely unwrapped.

As for FAQ's about test holes, not really.

As for clay, if none is found where the dam will be, check in other areas of the pond basin. The clay can always be moved from that area, brought to the dam area, and compacted.

The NRCS has a good "best practices" for pond building book. See if you can get a copy of it, or download it from their website. The guy that you want to dig your pond should know what a core trench is (and were it goes in the dam), how much water should be in the soil for proper compaction, how to compact soil correctly (typically a sheepsfoot roller or multi tired scraper loaded with dirt, NOT tracks on a dozer or excavator), how to compact dirt around the primary overflow pipe, how to properly size the primiary and secondary overflow (or have the resources to get those sizes), etc.

I can't stress enough that when you have your pond dug, do it right the first time. It'd be better to go slower and have everything planned out, with a good/great pond builder than to rush and have a dirt mover do the work. Leaky ponds can cost just as much to fix as it cost to dig it in the first place.
_________________________
www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#374219 - 04/28/14 10:16 AM Re: Picking a pond builder [Re: SetterGuy]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1194
Loc: NE Missouri
Excellent. Thanks
Makes me want to reach out to one of the pond building experts I've seen advertised in the magazine. May cost a bit more, but it has to be done right the first time.
Too much at stake to skimp here..
_________________________
3 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

Top
#374225 - 04/28/14 11:31 AM Re: Picking a pond builder [Re: SetterGuy]
esshup Offline
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Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24026
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
There's probably local guys too, but you have to do your due diligence and check/double check refrences. Just because there are more dirt movers than true pond builders.

Or, you could hire a pond consultant that can work with a dirt mover who hasn't built a pond to ensure that it's built correctly. The pond consultant can also then make sure that there is cover in the pond for the particular species of fish you want, figure out an aeration system (if needed or required), etc., etc.

Building a pond actually is more detailed than you think. Correct bottom contour and slope, fish habitat, cover for forage fish, etc., etc.

It's more than digging a bowl, or damming up a ravine. Then the consultant can help with types of fish, sizes and quantities to meet your goals and fit in your budget. It's a lot less stressful if you have the pond planned out from start to finihs rather than get half way done and be wondering "what's next?".
_________________________
www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#374226 - 04/28/14 11:35 AM Re: Picking a pond builder [Re: esshup]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1194
Loc: NE Missouri
Originally Posted By: esshup
Or, you could hire a pond consultant that can work with a dirt mover who hasn't built a pond to ensure that it's built correctly. The pond consultant can also then make sure that there is cover in the pond for the particular species of fish you want, figure out an aeration system (if needed or required), etc., etc.".


This sounds even better, especially if I can find someone within a reasonable distance, it will keep my friendship with the neighbor dozer operator in tact also.

So, google pond consultants??
_________________________
3 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

Top
#374237 - 04/28/14 12:19 PM Re: Picking a pond builder [Re: SetterGuy]
esshup Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24026
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
Originally Posted By: SetterGuy
Originally Posted By: esshup
Or, you could hire a pond consultant that can work with a dirt mover who hasn't built a pond to ensure that it's built correctly. The pond consultant can also then make sure that there is cover in the pond for the particular species of fish you want, figure out an aeration system (if needed or required), etc., etc.".


This sounds even better, especially if I can find someone within a reasonable distance, it will keep my friendship with the neighbor dozer operator in tact also.

So, google pond consultants??


I'd start here . Also, just because they aren't in your back yard, that doesn't mean that they won't travel to you.
_________________________
www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#378257 - 05/31/14 09:40 AM Re: Picking a pond builder [Re: SetterGuy]
don1 Offline


Registered: 05/31/14
Posts: 1
Loc: Georgia (GA)
when digging test holes be sure to dig them in the back slope area. nothing is more aggravating than digging a core thru a boggy bottom after having test holes being dug thru it.

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#378260 - 05/31/14 10:51 AM Re: Picking a pond builder [Re: SetterGuy]
Zep Online   content
Hall of Fame 2014


Registered: 07/27/10
Posts: 3027
Loc: Dallas & Wills Point, Tx
Looks like a beautiful property.

Like others have said, try to consult with the
best experienced professionals to avoid problems later.
_________________________
Fishing has never been about the fish....


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#378269 - 05/31/14 01:08 PM Re: Picking a pond builder [Re: SetterGuy]
Rainman Offline
Ambassador
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Lunker

Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 6916
Loc: St Louis, MO area
You ask if it is worth getting a timber person? I more than paid for the original construction of my pond by having very selective timbering done on 20 acres surrounding the pond. Nothing under 20" diameter, 6 feet high was supposed to be cut, except in the pool area. (the guy did end up cutting several very nice White Oak at 14") frown

A timber cutter will normally come in, and follow your rules on how any skidding is done, and where roads/staging areas are built, but if it won't make the guy money, he won't do it! The person I hired went 60:40 in my favor because I was very lucky to have a rare, single, $20,000 walnut tree I had already cut, aged, and had graded (48"Diameter at the base, 39" small end and 38' to the first defect, very dense wood and straight as a pool cue).

Few cutters will touch tops and waste except to keep paths clear as that burns a lot of profit up fast!


Edited by Rainman (05/31/14 01:09 PM)
_________________________
Rainman

www.TilapiaStockers.com


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#385257 - 08/18/14 09:06 AM Re: Picking a pond builder [Re: Rainman]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1194
Loc: NE Missouri
Well, we've been making progress on the pond. Just a few pics of the clearing process.
So far 85 big trees have been hauled out to the blacktop for evaluation and bid from the mill. Hoping enough $$ from those to pay for the rest of the clearing.
The brush pile got too huge, so we had to start a burn pile in the pond base the tree tops were much larger than I thought they would be. (0 experience) it shows.
Dozer working..

Pic from west end of dam site to east..

Brush taken back up into the woods, until it became apparent there would be too much, so we started burning the tops.. Now we are deciding how to hide 100s of stumps/root balls.

Logs.

In the distance is the main inlet for water..
_________________________
3 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

Top
#385262 - 08/18/14 10:03 AM Re: Picking a pond builder [Re: SetterGuy]
esshup Offline
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Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24026
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
For a minute there I thought the first picture was a picture of the dozer on fire..... grin

What did the pond area look like on Saturday?
_________________________
www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#385264 - 08/18/14 10:08 AM Re: Picking a pond builder [Re: SetterGuy]
slabman98 Offline


Registered: 03/30/13
Posts: 46
Loc: in,usa
I'm excited for you, looks like good progress. I had several root balls from my project which submerged great. We also had several brush piles made from the tree tops. If I had to do over I'd put the brush in deeper water because they rose to the surface in alot of areas. Constuction is my favorite topic, keep the the pictures coming.

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#385724 - 08/23/14 08:24 AM Re: Picking a pond builder [Re: SetterGuy]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1194
Loc: NE Missouri
Quick update..
They were burying most of the stumps in holes on either side of the pond, and ran into rock, lots of rock.. Right beneath the topsoil, and never got below the rock. Needless to say, my dozer operator is pretty doubtful about the viability of the pond at this point.
Monday is start on the key way day, unless the three days of rain forecast puts us off for another week.
We still haven't found that much rock in the pond basin itself, but we haven't dug down very deep yet. So I guess there's still a small spark of hope.
I can't imagine the cost of trucking in clay from another location..
_________________________
3 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

Top
#385745 - 08/23/14 03:58 PM Re: Picking a pond builder [Re: SetterGuy]
esshup Offline
Moderator
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Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24026
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for ya. Get Tim out there, I'm sure Bill will enjoy talking with him! laugh Stockpile every bit of clay you can.

I'm assuming they got the bearing fixed on the skidder. Did they get the other run running? I DO like the idea of a settling pond on the opposide side of the road, and that will give you a chance to replace the culvert that goes under the road in that spot too.


Edited by esshup (08/23/14 04:00 PM)
_________________________
www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#385751 - 08/23/14 05:09 PM Re: Picking a pond builder [Re: esshup]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1194
Loc: NE Missouri
Originally Posted By: esshup
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for ya. Get Tim out there, I'm sure Bill will enjoy talking with him! laugh Stockpile every bit of clay you can.

I'm assuming they got the bearing fixed on the skidder. Did they get the other run running? I DO like the idea of a settling pond on the opposide side of the road, and that will give you a chance to replace the culvert that goes under the road in that spot too.


They got the small skidder running. Never got the big one running again. They did get all the logs hauled out. 85 at last count.
Bill would love to have a chat with Tim. He's asked me several times to get Tim back out.
Tim still says he's too busy to come back out.
Hoping to find some clay Monday, but they may not go Monday, looking at the forecast. They want several dry days forecast, and we have 50% chance of rain on Thurs & Fri.
We shall see. I'll be up there.
_________________________
3 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

Top
#385760 - 08/23/14 09:15 PM Re: Picking a pond builder [Re: SetterGuy]
esshup Offline
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Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24026
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
Thats bad, raining like that when you want to get dirt work done. Send it here. All the rain is missing my place by 30 miles or so to the South. The pond is down 51" right now.
_________________________
www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#385991 - 08/26/14 09:04 PM Re: Picking a pond builder [Re: SetterGuy]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1194
Loc: NE Missouri
Ok, another update. We almost stopped construction yesterday, due to so much rock located in the pond area. Lots of clay, but a lot of flint type stone in it. We also found some gravel areas.
Decided to push forward. In for a penny, in for a pound.
Here's some new pics. The bigger dozer (D8) went on through the gravel.
Have the keyway established. Finding more clay than expected.
I'm interested in any of you experts comments!




You can see the rock/gravel layer here that they have already gone through.
_________________________
3 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

Top
#385997 - 08/26/14 09:12 PM Re: Picking a pond builder [Re: SetterGuy]
esshup Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24026
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
That's a funny looking dozer in the first picture. wink laugh

I was hoping they'd pull the sheepsfoot with something that moved faster than the dozer! How is the sheepsfoot working on the soil? Is there enough rocks to prevent it from compacting the clay, or is it shoving the rocks down as it rolls over them, compacting the clay, and walking out of the clay after a few passes?
_________________________
www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#386010 - 08/26/14 11:17 PM Re: Picking a pond builder [Re: SetterGuy]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1194
Loc: NE Missouri
The tractor seems to pull it a lot faster than the dozer was.
The bigger dozer moves dirt over for the smaller dozer, then the tractor pulls the sheeps foot over the spread clay.
I haven't been there the whole time, but it seems to be working ok.
I'm just not seeing that much rock.
Not sure if we need more clay?
_________________________
3 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

Top
#386024 - 08/27/14 08:35 AM Re: Picking a pond builder [Re: SetterGuy]
slabman98 Offline


Registered: 03/30/13
Posts: 46
Loc: in,usa
I don't see any big rock around, have you hit any soild rock areas? On our project we would hit crusty areas of small red gravel before finding clean clay below. That crusty soil would go to the back side of the dam and pack the good clay in the core. I'll just say that I'm encouraged from what I see, looks like better soil than alot of the pond digs we have around here. I know how nervous I was last year while building our lake, we hit some rock shelfs and pockets of crusty,gravely, clay but the lake is full and holding. Just pack over the areas you don't like with a few feet of clay and see what happens when it begins to fill. Also when it fills it will raise a few feet and than soak in and drop. This may happen for 6-12 months and than should begin to level out. Exciting times just enjoy the ride.

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