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#464781 - 02/23/17 06:27 AM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: FireIsHot]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2527
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
Thanks for the trout info, it will assist in my plans next year. I would like to say it was my pleasure to have met your wife @ Brian's place this past fall. She must be a keeper because you guys have been together a long time and that is good. Now for me and my experience, if you can keep a woman happy, you are a better man than me smile
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

Tracy

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#464784 - 02/23/17 07:16 AM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: FireIsHot]
FireIsHot Offline
Moderator


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 3899
Loc: Emory TX
Thanks Tracy. I've been reminding her for over 30 years that she's a temp, but I'm not sure she believes me. I will say this about her though, she's creeping up on the big 60, and she can still pull her end of a seine with the best of them.

The trout have been fun.
_________________________
AL

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#464827 - 02/23/17 10:30 AM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: FireIsHot]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2527
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
I think she looks really good for 45 and I thought u were pretty smooth till I read your last post smile
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

Tracy

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#465514 - 03/02/17 08:21 AM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: FireIsHot]
FireIsHot Offline
Moderator


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 3899
Loc: Emory TX
Dropping the brood pond 3' today to get ready for Sunday's seine. This last week's weather has made the draining problematic since I didn't want to drop the pond with warm water. Increased crowding, warm water, and potential decreased DO due to the RBT crowding, all made my decision easy though. I was waiting on this cold snap to lower the water temp, and it hit perfectly. Yesterday at 04:30, the outdoor air temp was 68 degrees. This morning, it bottomed out at 31 degrees. I think that's low enough to hold the colder water until Sunday, and all should go well.

I've also been taking almost daily water temps at the surface, 3', 5', and 12' down. What I found was that once I hit 3', the water temp remained the same all the way to the bottom of the pond (12'). I also found that wind affects the surface temp greatly. Basically, the stronger the wind, the quicker the air temp drops or raises the pond's surface temp. Knowing that gives me options.

Since I already have the 3" water pump set up to drain the pond, I wanted to figure out a quick and easy way to take advantage of the warmer or lower subsurface water temp depending on whether I needed a slightly longer season for cold sensitive fish like tilapia, or cold weather fish like the RBT. I think I figured out a way to do this, and aerate the pond also. It only took a few pvc elbows I didn't already have, pvc I had laying around, and some quiet time to think. Whether it has merit or not, is something I won't know until I try it. I have to admit Cray's post about his LMB dying started all this. I sure hated it happened to him, but it made me realize I had no contingency plan if this same thing happened to the RBT. I hope I have one now.

I'll post some pics once it's set up, so when I do, please kick it around all you want. Won't hurt my feelings one iota, and I built it all with male/female fittings at the end of the pvc pipes, so changes only require altering or replacing the actual end pieces.
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AL

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#465530 - 03/02/17 10:23 AM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: FireIsHot]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2527
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
Al, what were the water temps at the depths mentioned in the big pond and the brood pond? And are you talking air in the brood pond, I thought I remembered you not having aeriation in the big pond? With u using pvc for air in the brood pond, are u talking about a fountain made from the pvc? And are u adding the trout now to the big pond to feed the lmb? What do u expect to see when u add the rbt to the big pond? Inquiring minds want to know smile
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

Tracy

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#465550 - 03/02/17 01:03 PM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: FireIsHot]
FireIsHot Offline
Moderator


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 3899
Loc: Emory TX
Tracy, yesterday morning the brood pond was 59 degrees on the surface, then 54 degrees on the rest. The big pond is very different. It's probably a 1,000' or more from the dam to the top end of the pond, and those surface temps fluctuate as much as 4 degrees. When there's no wind affecting it, the shallowest water at the top of the pond is usually warmer. If you're asking for the reason I think you are, then I'm no help on the LMB spawn. The big pond has been fluctuating from between the upper 50's, to the low 60's for weeks now, and I've seen several beds that were stopped, and had neither LMB or CNBG on them. I've seen no new beds at all, but I sure wouldn't bet against that changing week after next, if it hasn't all ready.

Yes, air is for the brood pond. I see no scenario where I'll ever add it to the big pond because of $$$$. It is kind of like a fountain without the throw, but the addition of air at the pump, and the ability to pull water at any defined level gives me options. It'll make sense once you see it. I'll post my initial thoughts, whether it works or not.

The only real goal I had in 2016 and then this early spring, was to see how many months I could grow forage with no legacy fish left in the pond. The tilapia died when it got cold, and now the trout will die when the water warms up. That means no draining, seining, and killing out the pond before this year's project. Best I can tell, I'll get 9-10 months of forage growth, with no residual fish.

As far as my goals specifically with the RBT, they're purely informational and recreational. I'm by the brood pond 3-4 times a day, and I enjoy having the more immediate results that a smaller pond provides. Will these trout add weight to the LMB? Sure they will, but let me throw a few numbers out. Just for round numbers, let's assume I have 50 LMB per acre, and 25 of those are capable of eating an 8"-10" RBT. On my 11 acre pond, that means I would be feeding 300 LMB. At 10 pounds of forage for a 1 pound weight gain, I would need 3,000 pounds of RBT to make a difference. Add to that the short period that they may even live in this pond's warmer water, and I think the benefits would lessen greatly. It's like the difference in eating a huge steak, and needing to let your belt out, and eating 4,000 calories a day for extended periods. One adds long term weight, and one is temporary. I'm ok with that.

Tracy, the plan right now is to dump 5 gallon buckets of RBT for several days, and then stock the rest in one drop. When I do that, my hope is that carnage ensues. The only obvious issues that readily come to mind might be the rising water temp, which further shortens the RBT survivability, or if the female LMB are on the beds when the RBT are put in. If they're on the beds, then they'll most likely miss their trout treats.
_________________________
AL

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#465618 - 03/03/17 07:59 AM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: FireIsHot]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2527
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
Thank you for your answers. sorry if I asked too many questions. You have been growing fish a lot longer than I have and I thank you for passing on your experience. And yes it would be very expensive to feed steak (trout) to your lmb every day. Todd asked me if I wanted some trout this past fall and I passed. My thinking was to hold off till next year when the lmb might need the extra calories. There may come a point where forage may be reduced and the trout could help, if I could afford to add them for more than a snack. And as far as the lmb spawn, I think I may be looking at late March. Thanks again


Edited by TGW1 (03/03/17 08:00 AM)
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

Tracy

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#465639 - 03/03/17 11:04 AM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: FireIsHot]
FireIsHot Offline
Moderator


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 3899
Loc: Emory TX
Tracy, always ask away.

So as I'm apt to do, I overthink the simple things. I hooked all the hoses up, and it was a disaster because of the back pressure the flexible outlet hose caused. Any kink, and water went everywhere. Luckily I was alone, so no one saw it. Putting the most air possible at the pump outlet was my main goal, so I removed all the hose and and restarted this at the pump. I think that's all I'll need, and I'm not sure how I could add any more air than this to the water. I did float the inlet so it wouldn't pull silt up like it tends to do when it's laying on the bottom of the pond.

The riser is on the wye because of the small amount of back pressure in the outlet pipe. With my 3" pump, the water churned and rose 16" up the riser, so I left 10 more inches of head space, and all seems well. I hope I never need this, but if I do, it'll jut take a couple of minutes to set up.

Any thoughts? What am I missing?



_________________________
AL

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#465644 - 03/03/17 11:35 AM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: FireIsHot]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5286
Loc: SE Kansas
Looks good to me. Might shoot the water at an angle to the bank so it causes a slight current around the pond to circulate.

My back up plan is a brush hog type mower set where the blades just slightly touch the water, running the tractor at modest speed.


Edited by snrub (03/03/17 11:39 AM)
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John

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#465719 - 03/04/17 08:12 AM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: FireIsHot]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2527
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
I like it, I did not realize one could have an air suction vent that size in a 3" discharge. looks to be adding quite a bit of air. Would have been nice to see the water discharge with and without the air input. Could be done by placing your hand over the air intake and then without the hand. But yes I think that will get you out of a bind, if needed. Thanks for the pics
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

Tracy

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#465722 - 03/04/17 08:38 AM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: FireIsHot]
FireIsHot Offline
Moderator


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 3899
Loc: Emory TX
Tracy, I did hold my hand over the vent stack, and there less suction than I had hoped for. Highflyer called last night with some recommendations, so I'll change some things up and repost the changes. My head spins when he fires his big brain up, but it was something about velocity, and pipe diameter while eating pie. I might have been distracted when he said that though.

He's helping me run some carrying capacity tests later this spring, and he's bringing his DO meter with him. We should get some solid numbers then.
_________________________
AL

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#465724 - 03/04/17 08:51 AM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: FireIsHot]
sprkplug Offline
Ambassador
Lunker

Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 6946
Loc: Freedom, Indiana
Strong work Al. You're on to something there.




What kind of pie? Did he mention meringue? I hate that icky, fluffy stuff.
_________________________
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.

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#465725 - 03/04/17 08:59 AM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: FireIsHot]
FireIsHot Offline
Moderator


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 3899
Loc: Emory TX
Sorry buddy. No help on the type pie he mentioned. I remember something about it being square though. Isn't that called a cobbler?
_________________________
AL

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#465726 - 03/04/17 09:04 AM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: FireIsHot]
sprkplug Offline
Ambassador
Lunker

Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 6946
Loc: Freedom, Indiana
Totally a cobbler. Brian should know better.
_________________________
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.

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#465793 - 03/05/17 12:34 AM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: sprkplug]
Pat Williamson Offline


Registered: 08/08/14
Posts: 2446
Loc: Oakwood,Texas
He he he every body knows pie are round!

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#489948 - 05/11/18 12:57 PM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: FireIsHot]
FireIsHot Offline
Moderator


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 3899
Loc: Emory TX
I've started my 2018 long term CNBG project, so I wanted to finish up 2017 first. As per usual, we had major rains in late spring, and the brood pond blew out again. Since fish moved both in and out, I decided to add 30# of FHM's, and 20 LSL LMB fingerlings. I seined the pond around the end of November and gave all the BG/CNBG to a cousin with 3 small ponds. The LMB were tagged and released into my big pond.

The LMB did not get the growth that I had the last time I stocked them, but these fish were there to just clean up fry and fingerlings of mostly unknown origin. When the pond was dedicated to the LMB, and stocked accordingly with FHM and gape friendly tilapia, the growth was very impressive. The LMB in late 2015 grew to over 2# in 180 days. Few of 2017's crop were over 14oz, but I expected that. At the end, they were scavenging at best.

When all the fish were pulled in late November, it was time to drain and treat the pond with hydrated lime and get ready for 2018. Unfortunately, I fired my seining partner, so I had the pleasure of doing the seining of this pond by myself, which was a first for me. Surprisingly, there were very fish that I missed. The seining part went no differently, but the trudging up and down the silty banks to slowly pull the net only 4í per side was a PITA. I burnt a few calories that day. Oh, my seining partner didnít divorce me after I fired her.
_________________________
AL

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#489951 - 05/11/18 01:31 PM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: FireIsHot]
FireIsHot Offline
Moderator


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 3899
Loc: Emory TX
I've had this little pond going for 7 years now, and I decided to return to it's roots, and that would be growing out new CNBG genetics to add my big pond. I'll readily admit that when this all started, I couldn't tell the difference in a 3" greenie, and a CNBG. A lot has changed since then. One of the things I've learned over the years, is that certain projects take different amounts of effort. Refreshing genetics is one of those projects. Because of that, the pond had to be void of any living thing prior to restocking.

Here's how I handle hydrated lime when things get serious.

This is the pond before and after spreading hydrated lime. The pond was drained until the pump started pulling a vacuum. Less water means less hydrated lime.



Don't forget to treat any potential areas that may hold both water and fish. The fish in this picture was 30' above the pond in a small rut. It had been 2 weeks since any rain, and the BG was still kicking when I found it.


Pipe inlets and watershed often have washouts and can hold fish, so be sure and treat those also.



Never ever forget to treat footprints. You'd surprised how many fish they can hold.




Attachments
HatcheryPondUnlimed.jpg (310 downloads)
HatcheryPondLimed.jpg (315 downloads)
HatcheryPondPotentialInterloper.jpg (309 downloads)
HatcheryPondWatershedLimed.jpg (303 downloads)
HatcheryPondLimedInletpipe.jpg (312 downloads)
HatcheryPondWetFootprints.jpg (313 downloads)



Edited by FireIsHot (05/11/18 01:53 PM)
Edit Reason: sp
_________________________
AL

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#489954 - 05/11/18 02:08 PM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: FireIsHot]
Acoursey Offline


Registered: 10/26/17
Posts: 55
Loc: West Lafayette, IN
Originally Posted By: FireIsHot
I've had this little pond going for 7 years now, and I decided to return to it's roots, and that would be growing out new CNBG genetics to add my big pond. I'll readily admit that when this all started, I couldn't tell the difference in a 3" greenie, and a CNBG. A lot has changed since then. One of the things I've learned over the years, is that certain projects take different amounts of effort. Refreshing genetics is one of those projects. Because of that, the pond had to be void of any living thing prior to restocking.

Here's how I handle hydrated lime when things get serious.

This is the pond before and after spreading hydrated lime. The pond was drained until the pump started pulling a vacuum. Less water means less hydrated lime.



Don't forget to treat any potential areas that may hold both water and fish. The fish in this picture was 30' above the pond in a small rut. It had been 2 weeks since any rain, and the BG was still kicking when I found it.


Pipe inlets and watershed often have washouts and can hold fish, so be sure and treat those also.



Never ever forget to treat footprints. You'd surprised how many fish they can hold.




Great advice! Those pesky little bluegills can hang around in footprint rather easily. Some of us have learned that from experience!

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#492463 - 06/22/18 03:44 PM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: FireIsHot]
FireIsHot Offline
Moderator


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 3899
Loc: Emory TX
The first thing I would like to do, is say thanks to all those that stopped by for a visit on my little hatchery pond journey. This thread has been rolling along for almost 7 years and 250,000 views, and I really thought this thread would run its course by now. But luckily, thereís just too much to learn, and too many new things to try. Itís been quite the ride.

So, this year's hatchery pond project is back to where I started almost 7 years ago, and that would be CNBG. I had never anticipated how much I would enjoy seeing my big pond transform since the addition of my first batch of OTS CNBG 5 years ago. The big pond is going on 20 years old, and other than one stocking from my original source of CNBG, none had been added. The original Florida strain of CNBG were brutes, but were almost solid black, and less than colorful to say the least.

This year is about trying to get a higher percentage of males that carry a non-dominant(my words, not Todd's) red tailed OTS CNBG trait and make it more common. I already have CNBG displaying this trait in the big pond, but not in the numbers I want. I might also add the red tails primarily show up around the spawns, but the transparency of the tail makes photos difficult. The best examples of the red tail is best seen on a 2007 pic from 13-3-2007 at Overton Fisheries CNBG page.

The thing I like about this particular project is the ease in determining if this all works. Most forum talk revolves around size as the main reason for adding new genetics, but increased vigor and color and body shape options are what I think of when adding new genetics. Success or failure should be determined by simple observation, and there should be no mystery if this works. The only gotcha is that these CNBG will need to be seined during, or right before they spawn this Sept-Oct. The red colors are already there, but it'll be up to me to determine which male CNBG get to stay in the hatchery pond as spawners, and which ones hit the big pond.

After growing out CNBG several times, LSL LMB twice, RBT twice, and HSB, Iím convinced that FHM start predator fingerlings off with a bang, and this yearís project is no different. What I donít want is for these CNBG to run straight to the feeders, so them being grown out with both fish food and live forage makes sense to me. When theyíre released, I want them feeding on anything that fits their gape, and not just waiting around for a handout from my feeders.

Iím not sure how the pics will display, so hereís whatís below.

The first pic shows a pretty close ratio of the CNBG to FHM I stocked. The FHM have already had several spawns, and the shoreline cover is loaded with a consistent source of gape friendly FHM fry. I expect the CNBG to be big enough to feed on the adult FHM this fall or winter.


The second and third pic show the difference in my legacy CNBG, and the OTS CNBG I have now. This is where I want to continue go genetics wise.



The video is me stocking them. It sure is nice not to wash salt out of the bed of my truck anymore.




Attachments
FRY1.jpg (220 downloads)
CNBG-1.jpg (247 downloads)
CNBG-2.jpg (252 downloads)



Edited by FireIsHot (06/22/18 03:46 PM)
_________________________
AL

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#492475 - 06/22/18 05:46 PM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: FireIsHot]
jpsdad Offline


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 240
Loc: Texas
Al, if you don't mind me saying so, those are some beautiful bluegill. That lower one looks like a male that is beginning to grow his opercular flap. Do you recall it's length?

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#492479 - 06/22/18 06:03 PM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: FireIsHot]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5286
Loc: SE Kansas
I would take either one of those fish Al. They look great.

The part of this thread about your forage/growout pond was one of a few threads about small ponds that inspired me to build my forage pond.
_________________________
John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

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#492482 - 06/22/18 06:12 PM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: FireIsHot]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
Moderator
Lunker

Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 13633
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
Al has great BG. He brought me about 150 really nice ones to jump start my pond after the floods that ended the 4 year drought.
_________________________
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP

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#492492 - 06/22/18 06:56 PM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: FireIsHot]
FireIsHot Offline
Moderator


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 3899
Loc: Emory TX
jps, he was a smidge under 10.5", and just over a pound and a half.

John, thanks for that. You do a far better job documenting what you do than I ever did, or probably will for that matter.

DD1, let's hope for no more 4 year droughts.
_________________________
AL

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#492519 - 06/23/18 10:42 AM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: FireIsHot]
jpsdad Offline


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 240
Loc: Texas
Al, That is remarkable. In the waters I fish the BG begin sexual maturity between 5" and 8" depending on the BOW. You have the opportunity for some real monsters ... as if 10,5" isn't monster enough smile.

I caught my personal best Longear this morning. It had one of those helmet heads but was only 7.5" long. A beautiful fish with vibrant color. I have a picture but don't know how to post.

Thanks to John for help :

This may be a BG X LES hybrid? The image doesn't indicate any white trim on the margins of the opercle flap. ??? Just not sure if it was pure LES. There are a lot of images online that demonstrate regional variation and perhaps hybridization.


Attachments
PersBestLongEar.jpg (89 downloads)



Edited by jpsdad (06/23/18 01:55 PM)

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#492522 - 06/23/18 11:23 AM Re: New CNBG pond [Re: jpsdad]
John Fitzgerald Offline


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 2063
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
To post a picture, click on "file manager" at the bottom of the posting window. Click on "choose file", then choose a .jpg or .png file on your computer or tablet, then click "add file", then click "done", then click "submit" to post your message with picture.
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