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#487389 - 03/19/18 01:23 PM Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification
ColdSpringsFarm Offline


Registered: 02/14/17
Posts: 90
Loc: Edgefield, SC
Hi,

I'm expecting a fish delivery this week which apparently is going to be a mix of CNBG and RES. Supposedly a 70/30 split. I'm putting several hundred of these 1"-2" fish in a grow out pond for a few months before moving them over to their permanent home. My goal is a CNBG trophy pond so should I even stock any RES? Even if I do, I would like an accurate count of each species before moving them over. Is it possible to tell these two species apart at 1" or would I be better off ID'ing just before I transplant to the permanent pond in a few months?

-Jason
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#487408 - 03/19/18 03:37 PM Re: Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification [Re: ColdSpringsFarm]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5103
Loc: SE Kansas
It will be tough at 1".

Seen side by side, you will be able to tell there is a difference to their "look". But positively identifying them would be tough for me. When you get to 2" it becomes easier but still hard. By 3" you should be able to easily differentiate. I have posted a number of 3" RES pictures in my forage pond thread late last year. You can see the orange dot on their opercular fairly easy by that size.

my forage pond thread

two RES nominally about 3" long (guess)

CNBG of that size will have broad vertical bands on the body.

example of CNBG about the same size

At one inch both CNBG and the RES will display vertical bands. As the fish grow the difference in apperance becomes greater.


Edited by snrub (03/19/18 03:47 PM)
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#487409 - 03/19/18 03:52 PM Re: Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5103
Loc: SE Kansas
More than you ever wanted to know about RES.

RES info and links to other RES threads

Just added this thread.
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#487412 - 03/19/18 04:16 PM Re: Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification [Re: ColdSpringsFarm]
ColdSpringsFarm Offline


Registered: 02/14/17
Posts: 90
Loc: Edgefield, SC
Great! Thanks for the info. The grow out pond is absolutely crawling with forage so hopefully 3" will be attained in short order.
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#487413 - 03/19/18 04:26 PM Re: Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification [Re: ColdSpringsFarm]
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Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19497
Loc: Miss.
Originally Posted By: ColdSpringsFarm
Hi,

I'm expecting a fish delivery this week which apparently is going to be a mix of CNBG and RES. Supposedly a 70/30 split. I'm putting several hundred of these 1"-2" fish in a grow out pond for a few months before moving them over to their permanent home. My goal is a CNBG trophy pond so should I even stock any RES? Even if I do, I would like an accurate count of each species before moving them over. Is it possible to tell these two species apart at 1" or would I be better off ID'ing just before I transplant to the permanent pond in a few months?

-Jason


What is in the bigger pond ? What is your goal with this stocking?
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#487416 - 03/19/18 04:50 PM Re: Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification [Re: ColdSpringsFarm]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5103
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: ColdSpringsFarm
Great! Thanks for the info. The grow out pond is absolutely crawling with forage so hopefully 3" will be attained in short order.


Their initial growth with adequate food is fast. By late summer or early fall you should be able to take a #10 or 12 hook or 1/64 oz jig head and a tiny pinch of bait and catch 4-5" CNBG easily. Small hook, small bait. If you feed them some pellets they will grow even better. Even if the pellets are too big, as they soften in the water the CNBG will tear them apart and eat them. I enjoy feeding my fish about as much as catching them.

The RES??? Tougher nut to crack. You likely will wonder what happened to them. They rarely come to the surface to feed. Are harder to catch. Will not go into a baited fish trap nearly as well as the CNBG. CNBG are relatively easy to trap with a pellet baited fish trap. I think the RES more stumble in by accident rather than go in for the feed. Lots about trapping them in my forage pond and sediment pond threads. Go to the later pages to skip the construction phase.

snrub's forage pond thread

sediment pond thread


Edited by snrub (03/19/18 11:15 PM)
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#487489 - 03/20/18 05:49 PM Re: Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification [Re: ewest]
ColdSpringsFarm Offline


Registered: 02/14/17
Posts: 90
Loc: Edgefield, SC
Originally Posted By: ewest

What is in the bigger pond ? What is your goal with this stocking?


The goal of the bigger pond is 2+ lb CNBG. The pond is currently drained and I'm about to zap the remaining puddle with hydrated lime to make sure all of the HBG I bucket stocked back in January are dead. The destination pond is between 3. and .4 acres. I have a 1/20 acre pond right behind my house that I was hoping to grow out 200 to 300 1" to 2" fish for a few months before transplanting the healthiest/largest over to the permanent pond.

I know I have population control issues to deal with in the destination pond. Working out a plan for that.
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#487521 - 03/21/18 10:53 AM Re: Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification [Re: ColdSpringsFarm]
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Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19497
Loc: Miss.
If the larger pond was ready I was going to suggest splitting the stocking between the two ponds. I would still use RES. I would select harvest the CNBG putting the best/biggest males and females in the big pond rather than just dumping them all in from the growout pond.
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#487526 - 03/21/18 11:28 AM Re: Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification [Re: ewest]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5103
Loc: SE Kansas
I agree with ewest.

You have the perfect opportunity to do some selection of only the best to transfer. If you read through my sediment pond thread you will see that it started out new and clean of fish. The CNGB in that pond grew like gangbusters. Your very best growth will come out of your initial stocking, then as the fish reproduce you can run into the problem of over population and subsequent generations never grow quite as well as the original. That is because that first generation has the entire pond as its resource with little competetion.

If you truly want a trophy CNBG pond in your big pond you have the opportunity to grow your original stocked fish up large enough to trap/seine/catch fish of sufficient size so you can see the quality of their growth. Then transfer those very best fish to your main pond. Leave the laggards in the grow-out pond or better yet just destroy them. That is difficult to do once a person has paid good money for a fish (I can't do it, but trophies are not my goal), but if trophy is truly your goal it is better to have only the fish with best potential to get to trophy status in the pond you are trying to get trophys.

Now if you are going for just good all around fishing with a good catch rate, that could be a different story. But if you truly want trophies you want a very limited number of exceptional fish with all the resources in the way of feed and growth opportunity you can offer. If you could raise them to a size large enough to determine gender, you could even try for a male only pond by selecting only males to transfer, although one mistake and that goal will be gone. But still, even if you get 80% correct males, those initial fish stocked in that pond will have a better opportunity of reaching trophy status.

Ramblings of a non-expert. Use information at your own risk.


Edited by snrub (03/21/18 11:37 AM)
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#487542 - 03/21/18 02:59 PM Re: Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification [Re: ColdSpringsFarm]
ColdSpringsFarm Offline


Registered: 02/14/17
Posts: 90
Loc: Edgefield, SC
I got the small pond stocked today with 300 CNBG/RES mix. Fingerling is a stretch. More like quarter-fingerling. But I'm glad I'm getting extremely young fish so I can maximize their early growth potential. I'm definitely going to be getting them feed trained on Aquamax and doing some quality control on the transplants. I have actually stumbled on the concept of all male stocking before. This little grow out pond has been the subject of all sorts of experiments in past years. A few years back it was 100% golden shiners as a source of bait fish. One day I caught several mid sized redbreasts off the bed at the local lake. I put 3 of them in this little pond b/c I didn't feel like cleaning them. Nearly forgot about them until the following summer when I was dropping the water level. Those were some of the biggest redbreasts I've seen. I suspect they were all males as a result of catching them during spawning activities. the 1/20 acre pond was loaded with all sorts of forage and was plenty of space for just 3 fish to grow. I wish I had taken a picture of them.



Edited by ColdSpringsFarm (03/21/18 03:01 PM)
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#487568 - 03/21/18 10:29 PM Re: Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification [Re: ColdSpringsFarm]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5103
Loc: SE Kansas
I'm curious, did you notice or could you tell the difference between the RES and CNBG fingerlings?
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#487583 - 03/22/18 10:53 AM Re: Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification [Re: snrub]
ColdSpringsFarm Offline


Registered: 02/14/17
Posts: 90
Loc: Edgefield, SC
Originally Posted By: snrub
I'm curious, did you notice or could you tell the difference between the RES and CNBG fingerlings?


Looking down on the fish from the top, there were a some fish that were noticeably lighter than the others. I suspected those were RES but it may have just been the smaller fish. I dipped a few out to compare and would be hard pressed to confidently say CNBG or RES at that size. There were a few of the larger ones(1.5") that had a more mottled pattern that I think may have been RES, so I imagine they'll be much easier to ID in a few months.
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#487591 - 03/22/18 12:31 PM Re: Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification [Re: ColdSpringsFarm]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5103
Loc: SE Kansas
In the last couple years I have seen and handled a LOT of fingerling CNBG, RES, GSF and hybrids. When they are tiny it is tough. The GSF stand out pretty well but the others are tough. When they are as small as the one in your hand a person, at least with my eyes, would need to get out a magnifying glass and start counting fin rays and looking very closely for clues. The kind of time you do not have when stocking large numbers of fish not to mention you don't want to kill them all. But as you noted with the larger fish in your batch, it gets much easier as they get some size.

I'm no expert at fish ID. In fact give me a mixed batch of a number of different sunfish and I would do a dismal job of identifying them. But what I have had experience in with my own ponds is having recruitment from a very limited number of variety possibilities. For example when I stocked my sediment pond there were only three possibilities - RES, CNBG or GSF (not stocked) and any potential hybrids thereof. My forage pond had only RES stocked and GSF (not stocked)and produced lots of RES/GSF hybrids (because of the small number of GSF and lack of potential GSF mates so they chose RES males). Having only those four possible choices to choose from I got pretty good at being able to differentiate. I have handled literally several thousand of them from 1" on up. Now if you threw in several other potential species or I went to someone else pond, I would be lost at ID'ing them.

Sounds like you are on your way. Good luck. wink


Edited by snrub (03/22/18 12:38 PM)
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#488504 - 04/12/18 05:57 PM Re: Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification [Re: ColdSpringsFarm]
ColdSpringsFarm Offline


Registered: 02/14/17
Posts: 90
Loc: Edgefield, SC
I've been feeding about 1.5 ounces of AM600 to my little CNBG/RES fingerlings. After realizing how small these fish are I decided to pulverize the AM600 so that most of it is sinking immediately. I've been anxiously awaiting the day when I throw out the feed and actually witness my fish eating it. So far I haven't had any luck witnessing feeding, although I have done some night time inventory to find plump healthy fish sleeping in the shallows. The last two days the mornings have been pretty chilly so I skipped feeding. Today I wasn't able to feed so I asked my wife to do it for me. She swears she saw a swarm of small fish eating the sinking feed. I'm thinking the combination of the warming temps and the lack of feed the last two days may have caused them to be more aggressive. Anyway, I'm excited about this new development and anxious to get them feed trained!
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#488505 - 04/12/18 06:35 PM Re: Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification [Re: ColdSpringsFarm]
John Fitzgerald Offline


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 2011
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
I bought some HBG off the fish truck for my newest pond about 13 months ago. I have not caught or seen a single HBG, but plenty of CNBG. Even fish truck workers can't tell them apart, apparently.
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#488529 - 04/12/18 11:57 PM Re: Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification [Re: ColdSpringsFarm]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5103
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: ColdSpringsFarm
I've been feeding about 1.5 ounces of AM600 to my little CNBG/RES fingerlings. After realizing how small these fish are I decided to pulverize the AM600 so that most of it is sinking immediately. I've been anxiously awaiting the day when I throw out the feed and actually witness my fish eating it. So far I haven't had any luck witnessing feeding, although I have done some night time inventory to find plump healthy fish sleeping in the shallows. The last two days the mornings have been pretty chilly so I skipped feeding. Today I wasn't able to feed so I asked my wife to do it for me. She swears she saw a swarm of small fish eating the sinking feed. I'm thinking the combination of the warming temps and the lack of feed the last two days may have caused them to be more aggressive. Anyway, I'm excited about this new development and anxious to get them feed trained!


If they are feeding you can tell by pre-soaking some of the AM600 pellets so they sink immediately. Then put out a couple cups of this hydrated feed in a pile in about 6 to 12" of water depending on clarity (need to be able to see the fish). Stand back and stay really still for about five minutes and you should see a bunch of fish attacking the pile.

For viewing put all the feed in one spot and do not feed anywhere else (so the fish only have one place to go for the feed). This is only while you are wanting to view them. After you see the fish then go back to feeding like you normally would.

I would mix a few of the whole pellets in with your crushed feed. Eventually the fish will notice it and start hitting the floating pellets. They will keep hitting it till it softens enough and they will eventually consume it.


Edited by snrub (04/13/18 12:03 AM)
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#488531 - 04/13/18 07:37 AM Re: Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification [Re: ColdSpringsFarm]
Shorty Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/28/05
Posts: 4197
Loc: Raymond, NE
These are all RES from last fall.





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#488535 - 04/13/18 09:06 AM Re: Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification [Re: John Fitzgerald]
ColdSpringsFarm Offline


Registered: 02/14/17
Posts: 90
Loc: Edgefield, SC
Originally Posted By: John Fitzgerald
I bought some HBG off the fish truck for my newest pond about 13 months ago. I have not caught or seen a single HBG, but plenty of CNBG. Even fish truck workers can't tell them apart, apparently.


Not sure what your goals were but that would highly annoy me if my plan centered around HBG.

-Jason
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#488536 - 04/13/18 09:07 AM Re: Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification [Re: Shorty]
ColdSpringsFarm Offline


Registered: 02/14/17
Posts: 90
Loc: Edgefield, SC
Originally Posted By: Shorty
These are all RES from last fall.


Can definitely start to see the mottled coloration more as they get larger. Were those all the same hatch? Surprised at the size differences.
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#488539 - 04/13/18 10:06 AM Re: Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification [Re: ColdSpringsFarm]
Shorty Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/28/05
Posts: 4197
Loc: Raymond, NE
I assume that the size differences are from the different times that they hatched, bigger ones likely hatched in early June, smaller ones likely in September.
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#488544 - 04/13/18 11:16 AM Re: Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification [Re: ColdSpringsFarm]
John Fitzgerald Offline


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 2011
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
Originally Posted By: ColdSpringsFarm
Originally Posted By: John Fitzgerald
I bought some HBG off the fish truck for my newest pond about 13 months ago. I have not caught or seen a single HBG, but plenty of CNBG. Even fish truck workers can't tell them apart, apparently.


Not sure what your goals were but that would highly annoy me if my plan centered around HBG.

-Jason

My goals for that pond were CC, RES, and HBG. Otters got the CC, and never had HBG. Have CNBG and RES only, it seems. I have caught exactly one RES, and many BG. The BG made it to six inches in first season, however.
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#488546 - 04/13/18 11:28 AM Re: Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification [Re: John Fitzgerald]
ColdSpringsFarm Offline


Registered: 02/14/17
Posts: 90
Loc: Edgefield, SC
Originally Posted By: John Fitzgerald

My goals for that pond were CC, RES, and HBG. Otters got the CC, and never had HBG. Have CNBG and RES only, it seems. I have caught exactly one RES, and many BG. The BG made it to six inches in first season, however.


Well that stinks! You thinking about starting over or gonna make the best of what you've got? Predator plans for the BG? Would be hard for me to pull the plug on 6" fish.
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-Jason

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#488548 - 04/13/18 12:11 PM Re: Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification [Re: ColdSpringsFarm]
John Fitzgerald Offline


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 2011
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
Make the best of what I have in that pond, and call out stockmypond fish trucks for not knowing HBG from CNBG.
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#488645 - 04/15/18 09:48 PM Re: Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification [Re: ColdSpringsFarm]
Shorty Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/28/05
Posts: 4197
Loc: Raymond, NE
Here is another small RES picture, click on the thumbnail for larger view.

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#488649 - 04/15/18 11:34 PM Re: Fingerling CNBG vs. RES identification [Re: Shorty]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5103
Loc: SE Kansas
I have some that size and a little smaller Shorty. I was surprised to see such small fish this spring but I guess it must be normal if you have them too.

They should make good food for my 9" SMB in my forage pond.
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