Pond Boss Magazine
http://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
TerryDesilets, threeforme, wisco55, Damon@FCL, Mike Whatley
15291 Registered Users
Forum Stats
15291 Members
36 Forums
35277 Topics
481713 Posts

Max Online: 1039 @ 03/28/13 02:44 PM
Top Posters
esshup 24021
Cecil Baird1 20043
ewest 19227
Dave Davidson1 13270
Theo Gallus 12356
Who's Online
3 registered (teehjaeh57, For the Family, Zep), 102 Guests and 148 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2
Topic Options
#487902 - 03/29/18 03:03 PM Re: Aeration turn over rate [Re: snrub]
Bill Cody Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12303
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
The 3/4hp pump will easily operate all 8 diffusers. Daily run time is actually based on the amount of biochemical oxygen demand of each pond. Pond BOD is fairly closely related to water clarity (visibility-transparency) and amount of bacteria-phytoplankton-detritus present in the water which consume DO esp at night. Pond age also has an influence on BOD; older usually requiring more daily BOD. The only way to really know this is my measuring the DO in the deepest water several times throughout the 24 hr after aeration stops.

For what I know about our ponds, your location / climate, and pond age, IMO good aeration for 4-8 hrs per day should be very adequate when using the 3/4hp compressor if you do not have dense algae blooms.


Edited by Bill Cody (03/29/18 03:06 PM)
_________________________
Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management

Top
#487910 - 03/29/18 06:26 PM Re: Aeration turn over rate [Re: Bill Cody]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4612
Loc: SE Kansas
Many thanks for that info Bill. That gives me a starting point and some direction. You are such a great resource for this forum! smile

Your reply and the great explanation about the oxygen demand leads me into my second question.

I have heard it stated numerous times on this forum if running the aeration system less than 24/7, run it at night time rather than day. I have heard it stated, turn on the aeration from midnight to sun up or something similar. Dependent on the capacity to turn the water the duration of the "on" time.

This seems backward and counter-intuitive to me.

Let me state what I "think" I know and how it would seem to me would be a better way to operate, then you (or anyone else) can tell me where my thinking is wrong (which is a high probability).

During daylight the upper layer of water gets super saturated (on a sunny day) with O2 by algae production. At night the opposite happens. So why would a person want to bring up lower level water (lower in O2 to begin with) to the upper level where O2 is also dropping? I understand the water/air interface is adding O2 to low DO water. But would you not want to bring low O2 water up during a period of maximum O2 production rather than at night when only the air/water interface can add O2?

It seems to me it would be better (from strictly an O2 standpoint - lets leave summer water warming out of this for the time being) to circulate super O2 saturated water from mid afternoon to the lower level thereby creating an "O2 sink" of good deep water to hold the levels over night till morning. It seems to me a person would be wanting to move water to different levels during the day where algae has the chance to produce the most O2 over the maximum number of hours.

I hope I explained that well enough for what I am saying to be understood. It looks like to me a person, to maximize O2 production and retention, would want to run the aeration during the day rather than during the night. Why not run the air from say 8am to 2pm or from 10am to 5pm rather than at night?

If someone wants to bring up BOW heating during summer (I know Texas guys are concerned with this) lets discuss that as a third separate from DO question.


Edited by snrub (03/29/18 06:33 PM)
_________________________
John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

Top
#487932 - 03/30/18 08:21 AM Re: Aeration turn over rate [Re: snrub]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2204
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
snrub, I am one of those Texas guys you mentioned. So, like you, I am trying to figure out when is the best times for me to run the diffusers. When I added the diffusers (6 of them), I was told to run them 24/7 (by two different companies) and that is what I did for the past two years. But now, after watching Bob's Facebook program, I have agree with a pond needing a some cooler water during the hot summer months. Last year I monitored the DO and water temps from top to bottom. The water did have a cool spot but only the bottom foot of water where the DO was low. So now I am thinking of running them from 7 or 8pm to 8 am. Hoping to keep the DO up and the water a little cooler in the hot summer months here. Due to different pond bottom depths at different places turn over rates have to be different at different locations in the pond. I also see snrubs thinking or thoughts on running the diffusers at different times of the day to provide more O2 throughout the depths of the pond. How long would you run the system to move a little water around during the day, but maintain some cooler spots?


Edited by TGW1 (03/30/18 08:34 AM)
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

Tracy

Top
#487944 - 03/30/18 11:02 AM Re: Aeration turn over rate [Re: snrub]
Bill Cody Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12303
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
IMO, knowledge, & experience aeration is a complex topic due to numerous variables such as size & depth of pond, pond configuration and bathymetry of the basin, trophic (nutrient-BOD) state of the pond which changes, size of the aeration system and how quickly it can turn the water column, regional (climate) location, water temperature, type and efficiency of the diffusers, water quality, fishery type, and goals for the pond, etc. Aeration generally reduces chances of DO problems which is why it has proven popular for benefiting ponds. With all these variables occurring,,,, each pond is truly unique, thus the default aeration method is to aerate 24/7 to compensate for all the variables since very few pond owners and sellers have the ability to test DO, evaluate BOD, and determine needed operation time for each pond. Simple is often easiest. Under sized or minimally sized aerators need to be run 24/7 to get the pond turned over adequately.

IMO Snrub's rational is sound -""During daylight the upper layer of water gets super saturated (on a sunny day) with O2 by algae production. At night the opposite happens. So why would a person want to bring up lower level water (lower in O2 to begin with) to the upper level where O2 is also dropping? I understand the water/air interface is adding O2 to low DO water. But would you not want to bring low O2 water up during a period of maximum O2 production rather than at night when only the air/water interface can add O2?""

Short answer is yes, ideally you want to force the best quality water to the bottom and the best quality water is usually at the surface. However in most cases anytime you can dilute the worst water quality with better quality water, this is good. In most, not all situations as long as you are mixing daily, the differences between the two techniques is not significant enough to cause DO problems. The discussion is often or becomes academic - a mater of degree.

There are two main goals involved in this discussion: A. most efficient DO adding aeration method, and B. provide cooler water for the fishery. Each requires different aeration periods.

We also have to account that the bubbling action of the diffusers will add as much or more DO to the rising water column as simple atmospheric diffusion which according to text books is stated as very inefficient for adding DO to the water. Wave action improves atmospheric O2 diffusion. Note: bubbling from aeration adds a lot less DO to the water compared the the millions of algae cells per ounce of water during daylight.

Normally DO is consumed most rapidly at the mud water interface and at depths where light does not penetrate. This DO loss is primarily by bacterial respiration during decompostion. Normally there are lots of bacterial in the water column, but many more at the mud water interface where decomposition is most abundant. A good example of this IMO is in winter during ice cover when DO is lost first in the surface mud and then progresses upward as winter progresses. Final DO loss is then at the near surface under the ice/snow cover. Fish will move upward in the water column as this process progresses.

During summer and warm temperatures water is only able to hold about 1/2 as much DO as during 39F water. Plus all biological & chemical DO absorbing activities occur faster in warmer water. So DO can be consumed quicker in summer compared to winter, thus the greater need for aeration in summer.

In most ponds whenever low DO water is brought to the surface it gets infused with higher DO water, degassed, and pushes, pulls, or moves better water to the depths. In most cases there is not enough DO degradation to cause problems because of the high amount of DO in the surface layer and generally there is enough DO to satisfy the needs of the entire pond. Exceptions occur after several cloudy rainy days when algae production is reduced, turbid or low water clarity occurs, and when low algae production is present for various reasons.



Edited by Bill Cody (03/30/18 12:14 PM)
_________________________
Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management

Top
#487947 - 03/30/18 12:09 PM Re: Aeration turn over rate [Re: Bill Cody]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4612
Loc: SE Kansas
Thanks so far Bill. Great comments.

I get a lot of wind mixing here too but likely not when I need it most in dead of summer.

Few trees to block wind and Kansas is known for wind.


Edited by snrub (03/30/18 12:13 PM)
_________________________
John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

Top
#487954 - 03/30/18 02:53 PM Re: Aeration turn over rate [Re: snrub]
Bill Cody Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12303
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Ripples and small waves due to wind do not oxygenate anywhere near the amount of white cap waves.
_________________________
Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management

Top
#487978 - 03/31/18 12:05 AM Re: Aeration turn over rate [Re: Bill Cody]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4612
Loc: SE Kansas
I was thinking more about the water mixing capability of the wind. I have watched plumes of muddy water caused by a small spot of bank erosion move out to the center of the pond. I know from diving that surface current produced by waves can produce long shore currents and undertows.

What I don't know is if these currents would help the deep colder water below the thermocline.

Here is a link to the observation of wind created current.

thread showing current flowing out to the middle of pond created by wind

This is a quote from that post:
Happened to be out yesterday and noticed a muddy streak of water heading off across the pond. It was a very windy day. It looked like the muddy streak was coming from somewhere out in the pond toward the bank.

Upon further examination the muddy water was in fact coming from a small portion of the bank which had exposed clay. The waves were washing the clay into suspension then the undertow current was taking the muddy water out in the opposite direction of the wind and waves. So what looked like muddy water coming in from the center of the pond was actually muddy water moving out.
_________________________
John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

Top
#488061 - 04/02/18 09:23 AM Re: Aeration turn over rate [Re: snrub]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2204
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
Aeration through diffusers is good from all I have personally experienced and read. In my pond after the diffusers have been run 24/7 it seems that the pond has a decent DO reading throughout the pond during the most difficult times during the hot summer months. But I ran across a different problem that I believe the diffusers are instrumental in and that is disturbing detritus from the pond bottom and causing the water to become cloudy with lower visibility. And it may cause my fish to grow slower and harder to catch also. In a catch 22 during the summer, is as the water in the pond drops there is more and more detritus spread around in shallower water and as the pond drops the diffusers which were once in 10'of water is now in 7' and the diffusers are less beneficial at that depth. I am trying to find a way that the diffusers will kick up less material. If I raise them up from the bottom then when the pond drops the diffusers become less beneficial. I am working on a solution, I hope!


Edited by TGW1 (04/02/18 09:24 AM)
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

Tracy

Top
#488234 - 04/05/18 10:54 PM Re: Aeration turn over rate [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4612
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: snrub
Many thanks for that info Bill. That gives me a starting point and some direction. You are such a great resource for this forum! smile

Your reply and the great explanation about the oxygen demand leads me into my second question.

I have heard it stated numerous times on this forum if running the aeration system less than 24/7, run it at night time rather than day. I have heard it stated, turn on the aeration from midnight to sun up or something similar. Dependent on the capacity to turn the water the duration of the "on" time.

This seems backward and counter-intuitive to me.

Let me state what I "think" I know and how it would seem to me would be a better way to operate, then you (or anyone else) can tell me where my thinking is wrong (which is a high probability).

During daylight the upper layer of water gets super saturated (on a sunny day) with O2 by algae production. At night the opposite happens. So why would a person want to bring up lower level water (lower in O2 to begin with) to the upper level where O2 is also dropping? I understand the water/air interface is adding O2 to low DO water. But would you not want to bring low O2 water up during a period of maximum O2 production rather than at night when only the air/water interface can add O2?

It seems to me it would be better (from strictly an O2 standpoint - lets leave summer water warming out of this for the time being) to circulate super O2 saturated water from mid afternoon to the lower level thereby creating an "O2 sink" of good deep water to hold the levels over night till morning. It seems to me a person would be wanting to move water to different levels during the day where algae has the chance to produce the most O2 over the maximum number of hours.

I hope I explained that well enough for what I am saying to be understood. It looks like to me a person, to maximize O2 production and retention, would want to run the aeration during the day rather than during the night. Why not run the air from say 8am to 2pm or from 10am to 5pm rather than at night?

If someone wants to bring up BOW heating during summer (I know Texas guys are concerned with this) lets discuss that as a third separate from DO question.


Bob Lusk addressed part of this discussion in one of his Facebook live presentations. Pond spring check list - listen starting at 12:40 for info on this question

I don't do Facebook so I listen to the presentations after the fact.
_________________________
John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

Top
#488284 - 04/07/18 08:54 AM Re: Aeration turn over rate [Re: snrub]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2204
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
snrub, I like the way you approached the aeration times and would have to agree with what you said for the most part when speaking of DO during the time plankton produces it's highest output of oxygen and how one might use the diffusers in the pond for better oxygen distribution. I bought a DO meter( recommended by Todd Overton) last year and ran samples during the day and even a couple of nights. It was worth all the money, time and effort I spent to see and understand my pond and the fish and diffusers. I never expected to see low DO numbers at the bubbles but understood it all after testing. Hay, I am not the sharpest pencil in the box smile Had to see it all I guess to understand it. As said earlier here, I have a problem with the diffusers kicking up dirt, detritus etc off the bottom, contributing to the cloudy water I have sometimes. I have tried different things like cinder blocks, baby swimming pools in different configurations an nothing seemed to reduce the plum of cloudy water. So, right now I am building platforms to set the diffusers off the bottom some 18" on the first run and will adjust the height of the platforms as needed. Platforms are made of expanded metal and angle iron, where my Kasco diffusers will set. After I get them running I plan to look at your discussion, thoughts, here a little closer and maybe see where the DO might lead me. I have to give Bob Lusk some credit here, where he said GOD designed a thermal cline for good reason. I need to keep that in mind also when using the diffusers. smile


Edited by TGW1 (04/07/18 08:56 AM)
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

Tracy

Top
#488310 - 04/07/18 10:55 PM Re: Aeration turn over rate [Re: TGW1]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4612
Loc: SE Kansas
From my lake diving days many years ago, I remember during the dog days of summer we would find the fish right around or in the thermocline.

I wonder if they dip in and out of the cooler water as needed to maintain their preferred temperature? Might be something to leaving at least one deep hole not circulated for that reason. A cool water refuge.

You will have some fun with the DO meter. I hope you learn lots and share what you learn here.

As far as low DO in the water/bubble plume that makes sense. I have noticed swimming when I approach the diffuser plume the water is significantly colder (summer time). So it makes sense that it is pulling up low DO water from depth. I suppose if there were enough or maybe excess circulation then there would be no temperature difference as the water would already be thoroughly mixed.

What is puzzling is why the small fish like the bubble plume so well. In the summer we would approach the diffuser bubbles on the boat and see small BG riding the bubble plume up from depth then disperse outward. It appeared they were riding the plume over and over, like making a game of it. Maybe they liked the cool water? Or the bubbles? Don't know. Just know it is a common sight during summer around the diffusers.


Edited by snrub (04/07/18 11:02 PM)
_________________________
John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

Top
#488317 - 04/08/18 07:45 AM Re: Aeration turn over rate [Re: snrub]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2204
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
My first diving experience was in mined pits in E. central Okla back in the late 60's. If we dove below 10' or so it was freezing smile Same thing diving Toledo Bend lake here in E Texas and the lakes in Ark. just too darn cold for me. I like the warmer Caribbean waters smile I am going to give your thinking some serious thought this summer using the diffusers. I need to keep the waters a little cooler but maintain the DO as best I can. I keep thinking what DD1 says, your not a pond myster till you kill some fish, Trying to avoid all that!
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

Tracy

Top
#488334 - 04/08/18 11:11 AM Re: Aeration turn over rate [Re: TGW1]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4612
Loc: SE Kansas
The only reason to lake dive below the thermocline is to look at rock features or retrieve boat anchors. You are right, it is cold. In the summer if we wanted to do a deep dive we would don a relatively thick wet suit, sweat like a pig and almost overheat before we got in the water, then finally get cooled off at depth.

Normally everything worth seeing (the fish and dropped fishing rods) were above the thermocline. Mid summer it might get as deep as 25 or 30 feet in a more clear lake like Beaver in Arkansas.

When swimming in farm ponds as a kid sometimes there would actually be two thermoclines in a really super muddy pond. The top inch would be so hot it felt like it was scalding you, then to three feet down it was warm/hot, then below it freezing cold (or at least it felt like it). The modus operandi was to quickly get in and become a human diffuser and quickly move about to stir it all up to a more comfortable average. The cold water mostly stayed on the bottom but the the scalding hot stuff right on the top got stirred up where it was comfortable.

This is in a pond that looked like chocolate milk. My what we would swim in back then. Us and the cows.


Edited by snrub (04/08/18 12:08 PM)
_________________________
John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

Top
#488355 - 04/08/18 11:06 PM Re: Aeration turn over rate [Re: snrub]
4CornersPuddle Offline


Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 217
Loc: southwest Colorado
snrub, your description of dropped fishing rods being above the thermocline reminded me of a dive I made in Jackson Lake, in Grand Teton National Park, to attempt the retrieval of a friend's rod. He had marked the spot with GPS. I double suited up, guessing the water would be cold. The lake may reach 68 or 70 degrees at the surface in mid-summer.
Overboard I went. My friend had the bottom depth measured at 34 feet. At 22 feet I hit the thermocline. The cold intensified. Darkness set in. When I touched the bottom, I could not see my hand in front of my face. I could not see my bubbles. I didn't have any way of knowing which way was up! Needless to say, I wasn't seeing anyone's fishing rod.
I added air to my BC and rose up through the water column that way. Just below the thermocline, my sight returned.
That was really spooky down there in the cold and pitch blackness!

Top
#488638 - 04/15/18 05:59 PM Re: Aeration turn over rate [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4612
Loc: SE Kansas
Bill Cody do you or anyone else know the difference between the Gast model 0823 and 1023 other than the cfm difference? For some reason I can buy the 1023 (10 cfm) for less money than the 0823 (8 cfm). If they are the same build quality with the same expected life it is a no brainer for me to go to the 1023. But I have found several places where the 1023 is either no more expensive or actually cheaper than the 0823. This makes me wonder if the 0823 doesn't have some special feature (I have heard reference to nickel lining in some vane pumps for example) that makes it a longer life pump.

I can not tell from the Gast site where they list specifications.

I'm pretty sure I want the 1023 but do not want to order it and later find out the 0823 is a much better/longer life pump. I have ask the question via email to one of the potential purchase sources and if I find out anything from them I will add it here.


Edited by snrub (04/15/18 06:03 PM)
_________________________
John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

Top
#488668 - 04/16/18 03:32 PM Re: Aeration turn over rate [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4612
Loc: SE Kansas
Update on the pump differences between 0823 and 1023. Supplier got back to me and said only difference in pumps is air volume output. He said the 1023 was such a popular pump they bought them in larger volumes and got better pricing. They passed the better discounts on to the customer and that is why they could sell a 1023 cheaper than an 0823.

So for my purpose, the 1023 is a no brainer.
_________________________
John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

Top
#488674 - 04/16/18 04:08 PM Re: Aeration turn over rate [Re: snrub]
Bill Cody Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12303
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Snrub - your source is correct about the difference of the 0823 and 1023. The rest of the numbers in the model number do have significance in the configuration of the pump such as presence and type of quiet running head and type of motor. To my knowledge there is no nickel lining in either of those models of pump.


Edited by Bill Cody (04/16/18 04:09 PM)
_________________________
Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management

Top
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2

Today's Birthdays
cobra01, Dan123, micam5, Rich B, woodster
Recent Posts
Kentucky Contractor
by For the Family
50 minutes 27 seconds ago
new member
by Pat Williamson
Yesterday at 11:18 PM
Hello fellow pond lovers!
by Pat Williamson
Yesterday at 10:37 PM
Bluegill feeding frenzy
by anthropic
Yesterday at 10:32 PM
Pk shrimp larva
by Snakebite
Yesterday at 09:50 PM
Help Please! Fish Kill
by Bill D.
Yesterday at 09:41 PM
3ppm alkalinity!!! What now
by Bill D.
Yesterday at 09:35 PM
BING ALERT!!!!
by Bill D.
Yesterday at 09:31 PM
New Pond Construction In Jefferson Co, Mo.
by Bobbss
Yesterday at 09:25 PM
Small Bass Problem
by Pat Williamson
Yesterday at 01:19 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Question on pond draining
King Fisher
Tree Swallow grooming---Female Red-wing black bird
WHEEL BUG
Ducks3
This mornings photo.

2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide