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Being a rookie I really appreciate all the input that comes from this site. It is an awesome resource! Hopefully one day I can help someone rather than just ask questions, but for now Ill stick with the questions.

quick summary 3/4 acre 10+ foot deep at its deepest avg 6' pond just in south east Texas. In Dec I put 250 2-3" CNBG 100 3-4" red ears and 15# of FH minnows. I was planning on ladder stocking HSB as my sole predator this fall. I feed 2x daily cargill triton pellets. I am working on aeration right now but it is not in place yet.

My goal for the pond is to grow some bigger bluegill and fun fishing for my Girls (and myself). I had not planned on incorporating LMB and I do not want catfish in the pond.

I was going to wait till the fall to put HSB in the pond then stock maybe 15 4-6" fish this year then 15 next year and 15 the following for a total of 45 over 3 years.

Is this enough predators to keep the CNBG in check and healthy? I would imagine that the CNBG I put in the pond in Dec will be able to reproduce this spring and summer, Am I in risk over overpopulating the pond with CNBG the first year? Do I need to put the predator in now? Someone suggested on another post that the HSB may not be enough to control the CNBG do I need to have some LMB as suggested? I was trying to eliminate having another species that I had to manage for, but the health of the pond is more important so...

Thanks in advance,

David

Last edited by DRG; 03/20/18 03:16 PM.
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Would you consider hbg instead of cnbg? Fun fishing, less reproduction so the hsb should do better at controlling any offspring. Ladder stock hbg and hsb as needed. You should get away with no lm.


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CNBGs are already in there it looks like.

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Let's see what others have as opinions. Hybrid BG could be a better panfish compared to CNBG because HY bluegill have low recruitment of offspring.
If you want to try this combination and If it were my pond, as suggested, I would add the HSB this spring before the CNBG spawn. HSB won't spawn so when they get larger there will be no small predators to control the prolific annual reproduction that produces lots of small CNBG which small LMB would do if present. So to help prevent overpopulation of CNBG,,,,, either use HBG or add HSB asap to at least reduce the first year class of CNBG. Then ladder stock HSB every year or two to get predation of each new crop of CNBG.

You are embarking on a relatively unproven stocking combination. From my experience and knowledge the HSB-CNBG combination is a chancy endeavor, especially in a 3/4 pond, where it will not be easy nor simple to renovate to fix an over population problem of CNBG. In the first several years be watchful of signs of over abundant small BG represented by obvious high numbers, slow growth, and stunting.

Bocomo said the CNBG are already stocked so HBG are not an option. Okay- to get decent predation of the CNBG offspring of 2018 and beyond I think you will have to ASAP stock HSB and stock them in numbers as if they were LMB 50-100/ac. Let's hear other opinions.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/20/18 08:06 PM.

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Thank you everyone. The CNBG is a done deal as they have been in since December. I guess my concerns were an over abundance of LMB but if that is the best option I am not opposed. What would be a good mix maybe 15 hybrids and 15 LMB this spring with hybrids added every other year? I am more interested in big bluegill than big bass.

I think a proven recipe is probably the best option as a newbie experimenting can go bad in a hurry.

Last edited by DRG; 03/20/18 10:00 PM.
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Maybe single sex LMB if overpopulation is your concern? But if you get any hitchhikers from upstream, it may be a problem.

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The CNBG will spawn this spring. You would be wise to get some additional predation in there - Some larger HSB (25-8 inch) will help. Could also use single sex LMB but be real sure of their sex. If you are shooting for trophy BG then you will need high predation on BG.
















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A couple of additional tools for your pond management toolbox as the population develops might be diligent netting/trapping and consequent removal of BG, and disturbance of their nesting areas during their spawning. What I have in mind there is dragging a rake through the redds or otherwise stirring them up.
My BG population is super low. I've had too many bass until just recently. Sounds like you may just have to spend all day every day fishing. Tough job, I know, but somebody's got to do it.

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Originally Posted By: DRG
Thank you everyone. The CNBG is a done deal as they have been in since December. I guess my concerns were an over abundance of LMB but if that is the best option I am not opposed. What would be a good mix maybe 15 hybrids and 15 LMB this spring with hybrids added every other year? I am more interested in big bluegill than big bass.

I think a proven recipe is probably the best option as a newbie experimenting can go bad in a hurry.


From my experience I have had BG reproduction so good that it has limited my LMB recruitment. Subsequently I have BG out the wazoo and very limited LMB. I have run into a modest BG over crowding although since I like to fish for BG that has not been too bad so far. But I can see where my top end growth for the BG has been retarded. I have loads of 6-8" BG but not many of the nicer larger ones.

Last fall I caught and wife and I filleted over 400 BG to reduce the crowding some. Well come this spring it appears to have not even made a dent. When I feed there looks to be as many BG as ever (of course there isn't, but it looks that way). The good news is my catch rate is great and I have enjoyed some brisk fishing the last couple days. But if I were trying for trophy status it would be a disappointment.

So for all this rambling, from my experience, if you want good BG fishing you need some way to prevent the BG from becoming too numerous. Either by adequate predators or by an awful lot of removal fishing. I think my BG got the upper hand on my predators and are preventing the LMB from having successful spawns or at least almost no survival of the spawns. I'm working to remedy that by removing lots of BG and also by raising an additional 100 LMB in another pond to transfer to my main pond when they get to about 12" (this on a 3 acre main pond).

That is my experience. If you don't like to catch lots of 4" BG, be sure you have enough predators to control their spawn so the numbers will stay in check so they will have enough resources to reach the nice 8-9" size.

Last edited by snrub; 03/21/18 11:03 AM.

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Snrub, what were your initial stocking rates of bluegil and LMB? I see from most of what I read that under predation can cause as much if not more damage than over.

Being that I have 350 BG and RE (I would guess there is a high survival rate as I ha e not seen a bunch of dead fish) I am going to put in 30 bass this first year and go from there. I am headed to Overton’s today for the third time in 6 months!!!!! This will be my last trip for a while I hope. I am going to primarily use HSB but I am going to get a few northern strain LMB. I plan on coming home with 30 fish total. We shall see!

Thanks to all.

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Here is a post on my initial stocking rate for the first year and the times I stocked.

snrubs stocking rate and dates for the main pond

From what I have read on here, a persons latitude affects how well the BG population growth does in relation to the LMB population growth. If I recall correctly, more northern latitudes tend to have BG overcrowding if the BG are stocked too early in relation to the LMB. In the far south they have less problem with that and want to get the forage established early. I'm in the middle so who knows????

Another important consideration are goals. If I was shooting for a trophy LMB pond I would probably be in great shape as far as forage. Not all that many LMB with plenty to eat. But I really don't bass fish that much (I have some friends that do) and prefer pan fish fishing with light tackle. So my goal was to have the opposite of what I have and have a LMB over crowded situation to control the BG population well so the BG would get to nice sizes as well as have numerous 2-3# LMB to catch.

I get bored fishing really quick if I am not catching something. So I prefer action over trophy. For me to fish for hours to catch a single big fish (maybe at that) bores me to tears. I just don't do it. Now catching 40 or 50 pan fish in a couple hours, that is what floats my boat. smile

So it is not that my pond has turned out bad. It is just not exactly what my goals were.

Edit: another note on all of the above. When I stocked my main pond I had not yet found Pond Boss magazine or the forum. I started reading the forum after my initial stocking of forage fish. So at the time of original stocking I was going more by what my fish seller (Charles Wallace of Wallace fish farms) had suggested for stocking rates. I did not tell him I wanted a pan fish pond but, not really knowing what I wanted at the time, just told him I wanted a general fishing pond. After all, I was not even an angler at the time. The last fishing I had done was 30 years ago with my small kids for 4" GSF. So considering that, the pond has turned out ok. As time went by and I learned more about it here on the forum and I started liking fishing and found out what I liked in the way of fishing. So my goals were really set rather dynamically after the pond was initially stocked.

Last edited by snrub; 03/22/18 09:37 AM.

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Originally Posted By: snrub
Here is a post on my initial stocking rate for the first year and the times I stocked.

snrubs stocking rate and dates for the main pond

From what I have read on here, a persons latitude affects how well the BG population growth does in relation to the LMB population growth. If I recall correctly, more northern latitudes tend to have BG overcrowding if the BG are stocked too early in relation to the LMB. In the far south they have less problem with that and want to get the forage established early. I'm in the middle so who knows????

Another important consideration are goals. If I was shooting for a trophy LMB pond I would probably be in great shape as far as forage. Not all that many LMB with plenty to eat. But I really don't bass fish that much (I have some friends that do) and prefer pan fish fishing with light tackle. So my goal was to have the opposite of what I have and have a LMB over crowded situation to control the BG population well so the BG would get to nice sizes as well as have numerous 2-3# LMB to catch.

I get bored fishing really quick if I am not catching something. So I prefer action over trophy. For me to fish for hours to catch a single big fish (maybe at that) bores me to tears. I just don't do it. Now catching 40 or 50 pan fish in a couple hours, that is what floats my boat. smile

So it is not that my pond has turned out bad. It is just not exactly what my goals were.

Edit: another note on all of the above. When I stocked my main pond I had not yet found Pond Boss magazine or the forum. I started reading the forum after my initial stocking of forage fish. So at the time of original stocking I was going more by what my fish seller (Charles Wallace of Wallace fish farms) had suggested for stocking rates. I did not tell him I wanted a pan fish pond but, not really knowing what I wanted at the time, just told him I wanted a general fishing pond. After all, I was not even an angler at the time. The last fishing I had done was 30 years ago with my small kids for 4" GSF. So considering that, the pond has turned out ok. As time went by and I learned more about it here on the forum and I started liking fishing and found out what I liked in the way of fishing. So my goals were really set rather dynamically after the pond was initially stocked.

So, snrub, now that you know a lot more about both your goals and fishing, do you think you will ever wipe the slate clean and start over? I know that is an expensive proposition. Just curious if you have thought about it.


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If CNBG are your goal, I would stock the HSB and over stock the LMB. LMB fingerlings are fairly cheap, so I would stock at 3X recommend amount of LMB maybe 100-110, then keep any LMB over 12". Your HSB you can raise on feed, so they will grow. The timing of all that is where the pros come in, which I am not. I would stock the HSB after LMB fingerlings are big enough to escape being eaten. But to your original question, I don't think HSB will work as your predator fish in a CNBG pond.

Last edited by BrianL; 03/22/18 12:03 PM.

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More options, but they should be considered for this new Texas 3/4 ac pond and many other pond stockings. Reminder his GOAL is - "My goal for the pond is to grow some bigger bluegill and fun fishing for my Girls (and myself). I had not planned on incorporating LMB.... & no catfish".

Generally having bigger BG means heavy predation is required especially in TX where BG spawn multiple times maybe 4 times per year or BG spawns occur regularly throughout the summer. This means there will be lots of small BG that could easily result in 'snrubs' situation as noted above - "have loads of 6"-8" BG, but not many of the nicer larger ones". This is due to lack of predation of small BG in the 1/2"-3" sizes that are eaten primarily by young bass 2"-14". Generally BG are more numerous in a pond as BG are smaller (many more BG at 1"-2" compared to those at 3"-5", compared to those at 6"-8". Reminder LMbass primarily prefer to eat sunfish 3 X smaller than the bass; thus smaller bass eat smaller BG. When one size group of BG are overabundant this means the appropriate sized predator is lacking in numbers.

I am doubtful that only HSB will be able to control the high numbers of CNBG in DRG's situation and for his goals - ""goal for the pond is to grow some bigger bluegill and fun fishing for my Girls (and myself)"". HSB will not provide numerous small young of year, and 2 yr old bass to control numerous annual spawns and a proliferation of little CNBG.

After rethinking my prior post and suggestions above, I now think to best achieve his goals with the easiest method, his pond should be LMB abundant or at least have a decent number of stocker LMB of 65-80/ac or even as suggested 100-110/ac. Small hungry bass are easy to catch and remove. Small LMB of 6"-14" when common make general fish catching more exciting and allows high catch rates and numerous LMB will be easy to catch and will result in bigger average size BG. Generally the more small bass present the bigger the CNGB will become. Both goals of ""grow some bigger bluegill and fun fishing for my Girls and others"".

I am very doubtful that unless smaller HSB are annually added to the pond as something to ANNUALLY mainly crop small CNBG, the goals of DRG will not be easily achieved. If he has to manually remove lots of small BG per year this will become laborious and maybe not much fun. Large bass are not his goal; high catch rates of nice fun, catchable fish are.

Also note - when LMB are too few per acre with BG, overabundant BG can actually keep the LMB from producing small bass each year by eating most if not all bass eggs and fry. This has occurred in snrub's and many other ponds. So if DRG does not stock enough bass or too few LM stockers survive, over abundant BG can still occur when LMB are present. The original bass keep getting bigger and few if any new bass are added naturally from reproduction each year. IMO he does not want to annually have to add small predators to his pond. It would work, but it is inconvenient.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/22/18 10:38 AM.

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awesome information!!! thank you. I am headed to Overtons today and I am going to get a mix of northern LMB (I was told they are a bit easier to catch than signature strain "LEGACY" bass they developed and HSB (I like to eat these smile . The northern strain LMB are 6" fish.

Thank you

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Originally Posted By: N.TexasHalfAcre
Originally Posted By: snrub
Here is a post on my initial stocking rate for the first year and the times I stocked.

snrubs stocking rate and dates for the main pond

From what I have read on here, a persons latitude affects how well the BG population growth does in relation to the LMB population growth. If I recall correctly, more northern latitudes tend to have BG overcrowding if the BG are stocked too early in relation to the LMB. In the far south they have less problem with that and want to get the forage established early. I'm in the middle so who knows????

Another important consideration are goals. If I was shooting for a trophy LMB pond I would probably be in great shape as far as forage. Not all that many LMB with plenty to eat. But I really don't bass fish that much (I have some friends that do) and prefer pan fish fishing with light tackle. So my goal was to have the opposite of what I have and have a LMB over crowded situation to control the BG population well so the BG would get to nice sizes as well as have numerous 2-3# LMB to catch.

I get bored fishing really quick if I am not catching something. So I prefer action over trophy. For me to fish for hours to catch a single big fish (maybe at that) bores me to tears. I just don't do it. Now catching 40 or 50 pan fish in a couple hours, that is what floats my boat. smile

So it is not that my pond has turned out bad. It is just not exactly what my goals were.

Edit: another note on all of the above. When I stocked my main pond I had not yet found Pond Boss magazine or the forum. I started reading the forum after my initial stocking of forage fish. So at the time of original stocking I was going more by what my fish seller (Charles Wallace of Wallace fish farms) had suggested for stocking rates. I did not tell him I wanted a pan fish pond but, not really knowing what I wanted at the time, just told him I wanted a general fishing pond. After all, I was not even an angler at the time. The last fishing I had done was 30 years ago with my small kids for 4" GSF. So considering that, the pond has turned out ok. As time went by and I learned more about it here on the forum and I started liking fishing and found out what I liked in the way of fishing. So my goals were really set rather dynamically after the pond was initially stocked.

So, snrub, now that you know a lot more about both your goals and fishing, do you think you will ever wipe the slate clean and start over? I know that is an expensive proposition. Just curious if you have thought about it.


Not a chance. I'm enjoying the pond the way it is. Thing of it is, the fishing part is really only a small part of the overall enjoyment of the pond. The other elements are the learning, the beauty, my wife's enjoyment, feeding the fish, getting out almost daily and just riding around the property............... probably lots more that I can't think of now. I did not approach the pond from a fishing standpoint at all. The fish and fishing were just an afterthought until I got interested in them.

snrubs pond story - how a mole hill turned into a mountain

I'm pretty pleased with it the way it is. It is just that having something to "tweak" keeps me interested. No, I would not even consider a "start over" in the main 3 acre pond. That said, I might very well do it some day in my 1/20th acre forage pond just to follow some new fish lark. grin That would be a comparatively easy task.

Last edited by snrub; 03/22/18 10:52 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody


Also note - when LMB are too few per acre with BG, overabundant BG can actually keep the LMB from producing small bass each year by eating most if not all bass eggs and fry. This has occurred in snrub's and many other ponds. So if DRG does not stock enough bass or too few LM stockers survive, over abundant BG can still occur when LMB are present. The original bass keep getting bigger and few if any new bass are added naturally from reproduction each year. IMO he does not want to annually have to add small predators to his pond. It would work, but it is inconvenient.


Bingo. As we have discussed before and Bill has pointed out, I am satisfied that is exactly what happened in my situation. The BG got the upper hand on my LMB and I am just not getting any LMB recruitment. I'm growing out 100 LMB to 12" size to transfer to my main pond right now to try and rectify that situation. A friend did catch a couple of 12" LMB recently from the pond so I think at least a few of the 100 additional fingerling LMB I directly stocked in 2017 survived predation (or they could have been recruitment's from my own adult LMB) so I hope the turn around has already started. During feeding I am seeing a good mix of BG from 3" on up but am not seeing excessive numbers of the 3" size. So I think things are heading in the right direction.


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What about his statement that he did not want LMB?
Hard to have big BG without a very active predator like LMB.
















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Originally Posted By: ewest
What about his statement that he did not want LMB?
Hard to have big BG without a very active predator like LMB.


Agree, I don't think you can have one without the other, especially in Texas.

Last edited by BrianL; 03/22/18 02:35 PM.

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Ewest, I was not super excited about LMB but after reading through the site and listening I have decided that a healthy balance in the pond will be hard with only HSB so I have decided to use both HSB and LMB. I am actually a little excited about having the LMB to catch now!!! Based off 350 bluegil and red ears combined I have put 20 4-6” HSB and 20 6” LMB in my pond (thank you Todd Overton. A very professional fishery). I have heard some say to overstock the predator but I figure I can add more if needed so I tried to stick with the 10:1 ratio.

When walking around the pond I did notice some super small fry all over the shallows!!! I would assume fatheads ? I would take a picture but they are super small.

Thanks,

David

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10:1 is for growing bigger bass, and wanting big bluegill I think you might need to be closer to 10:2 or even 10:3. Do you have a chance to ask Todd while you were there?

Last edited by BrianL; 03/22/18 02:47 PM.

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BrianL I did not have a chance to visit as it was a hit and run job to get up there and get back!!!! They only had the larger $4 LMB ready to go today so I took 20 of them. My thoughts were that between them and the 20 HSB "that I was told are aggressive eaters" hopefully I am at least going in a better direction? If needed I will add some larger bass this fall.

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IMO you are stocking at rates for a good bass pond, which is great if you want a bass pond. If you want a bluegill pond you need many overstocked stunted 12" bass. You might call a pro, but I think you need way more bass, like 60-80 more.


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Originally Posted By: DRG
Ewest, I was not super excited about LMB but after reading through the site and listening I have decided that a healthy balance in the pond will be hard with only HSB so I have decided to use both HSB and LMB. I am actually a little excited about having the LMB to catch now!!! Based off 350 bluegil and red ears combined I have put 20 4-6” HSB and 20 6” LMB in my pond (thank you Todd Overton. A very professional fishery). I have heard some say to overstock the predator but I figure I can add more if needed so I tried to stick with the 10:1 ratio.

When walking around the pond I did notice some super small fry all over the shallows!!! I would assume fatheads ? I would take a picture but they are super small.

Thanks,

David


Its not the original fish (with adequate stocking) that will need managing its their offspring.

In most southern locations 10 t0 1 will result in LMB overcrowded in 3 years without harvest. 30 to 1 is suggested for trophy LMB. 10 to 1 is an old recommendation for food production from southern LMB/BG ponds from the 1930s.

Last edited by ewest; 03/23/18 09:57 PM.















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I did a experiment a long time ago with baby pike. We had a flood that took dams out in mill ponds and one lake. We had a spawn of pike in our drainage creek. I put them in a aquarian. In the beginning I fed them guppies. Basically I had one dominant pike that ate the others. Hope this helps.

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Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

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