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#487158 - 03/13/18 03:05 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Redonthehead]
Neo07 Offline


Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 33
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: Redonthehead
I did not use heat to bend the 1/4" all thread, but it may have been better to use heat. You can surely design a bar guard that will fit over the plate - its needs to be a larger anyway - more "surface area" to collect trash.

It does make sense to have a higher free board to enable full flow of the pipe. Since you are only adding additional free board to the top of the dam that will not always have water against it, its my opinion your tractor can do sufficient compaction. Perhaps have the dozer out to push dirt while you run the tractor with all the weight you can get on it.

Have NRCS tell you what elevation the emergency spillway should be too. ie they set my water level (8' pipe) at 99' from a benchmark, the emergency spillway is two feet higher at 101', and the dam top at 103 which was expected to settle to perhaps 102. On second thought just have them design a pond as if yours was not there yet, then see what it takes to make yours "right".

Do you have a plan on getting extending the discharge pipe down the back of the dam?


Ok, sounds good... I make have to just fabricate something myself for the bar guard, or modify an existing one.

I will see if they will do that for me.

I am thinking about it, as they also mentioned that. I know they make the 22 degree angle pipe connector for the 18" pipe, not sure if they have them for larger than that.... I definitely like the idea of extending the pipe all the way down the dam, just was unsure if that would make the pipe not drain as freely, or just how I could get it to be supported correctly with the angle against the dam side.

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#487159 - 03/13/18 03:08 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Rick O]
Neo07 Offline


Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 33
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: Rick O
Since you stated on another site that you are going to drain the pond down, why don't you build a siphon system and let it do the work instead of a pump. Rick


Does that need to go through the bottom of the dam? or are you talking about a system where you have to hook a vacuum pump to it to get it started and it is just PVC pipe running up the inside and outside walls of the dam?

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#487160 - 03/13/18 03:12 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Redonthehead]
Neo07 Offline


Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 33
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: Redonthehead
Originally Posted By: RAH
How did you bend the threaded rod? Looks great BTW.


I had bought a 6' stick of 1/4" all-thread (ebay I think), cut it into two pieces. I slowly bent them around the pipe trying not to kink it. No problem. After tightening the nuts down I sawed off the excess thread. Don't saw them off before getting it through the holes you drilled in the plate!

I second the thought of using a temporary siphon system to draw down the pond. Search on YouTube for videos. I used 2" PVC, and only glued the angles and cleanout on top of the dam, the 10' sticks were connected by temporary fernco rubber couplings. You will need a screen on the intake. Much better to let it run 24/7 by itself and not worry about a gas engine.


Good to know...

Well I did use a siphon a couple of times using 100' of 4" corrugated drain pipe... what a PAIN in the rear to get pulling... plus once I had it pulling if you went too deep in the pond I found it could not make the pull up the inside wall of the dam, I guess it was too steep, or too big of a pipe. I liked the idea of maybe installing a permanent siphon system just do not know how. I will do some research on that as well since like you said, no fun to keep gassing up a pump every 1.5 hrs...

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#487161 - 03/13/18 03:13 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: FireIsHot]
Neo07 Offline


Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 33
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: FireIsHot
Neo07, you've gotten lots of good advice.

If you're worried about the immediate damage to the back of the dam, then I might look at geotextile road fabrics. I've been using it for several years now under limestone rocks on 24' watershed pipes, and a small emergency spillway. Erosion has pretty much stopped.


I did look into that but finding the stuff where I live has been tough...

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#487162 - 03/13/18 03:20 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: RAH]
Neo07 Offline


Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 33
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: RAH
I have used the back of the backhoe bucket to compact a couple of core trenched below grade after stripping the topsoil (in excellent clay soil). They have not leaked, but I did not take shortcuts on the tamping which takes a lot of time. I used a sheepsfoot above grade. Do you have the topography to install a drain in the bottom of the pond (I used a 3" schedule 40 PVC pipe for my last pond and put a valve at the bottom of the pond in case needed later). Having a drain let me get plenty of clay from the basin to over-build the dam. I tried to explain the advantages of a steeply sloped pipe above ("One additional thing to consider is refitting you pipe with the exit end as low as possible..."). This allows a pipe to carry as much water as a larger pipe set with little drop when full because the water in the pipe pulls more water in like a siphon when the drop increases. The anti-vortex plate keeps the pipe from pulling air which decreases the pipes capacity. Having a drain gives you time to work slower with existing equipment. A dozer is nice for moving soil out of the bowl if things are not too wet. You also get a deeper pond. If you zoom in on the far left in the pic below, you can see the hole I dug that has the drain pipe in the bottom.



Well. one of those things like I said before... If I knew then what little I know now I would have done several things different, a bottom drain or siphon system being a couple... and an emergency spillway. I'm just not sure how you would install a bottom drain where a dam has already been created without breaching the dam core and causing possible leaks later on.

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#487163 - 03/13/18 03:50 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Neo07]
RAH Online   content
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4074
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
The bottom drain in my first pond was put in after the dam was done. The trench was dug, and when burying the pipe, each scoop was packed with the back of the excavator bucket. I did install the bottom drain on the new pond before adding the top 6 feet. I needed it to take incoming water during construction.

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#487165 - 03/13/18 03:53 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: RAH]
Neo07 Offline


Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 33
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: RAH
The bottom drain in my first pond was put in after the dam was done. The trench was dug, and when burying the pipe, each scoop was packed with the back of the excavator bucket. I did install the bottom drain on the new pond before adding the top 6 feet. I needed it to take incoming water during construction.


Interesting....

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#487166 - 03/13/18 03:54 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Neo07]
Neo07 Offline


Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 33
Loc: US
Well here is the latest from the local SWCD folks:

I again talked with our engineer, and I also figured the acres of watershed for your pond. So with not being at your pond site before, the numbers are rough estimates. I came up with 32 acres of watershed for the pond. From that ran some numbers and the CFS (cubic feet per second) for the watershed for a 2 year storm would be 23 CFS, and for a 10 year storm around 47 CFS. So with that being said the 18” diameter pipe you currently have installed in your pond would carry the normal 2 year storm with anti-vortex hood. However you would have the need for an emergency spillway as we discussed earlier on the phone in the event of a larger storm. Also I would recommend extending the existing pipe further without any angles because the angle would cause a reduce of flow in the pipe. There would also be the need to increase the elevation of the dam to meet the required head pressure for the 18” pipe to flow full (which we talked about on the phone). See attached for hooded inlet drop structure form to better explain. Again the numbers are rough estimates. I will try to make it out to your pond site around 10:00 if that works for you.


Attachments
2018-03-13 15_51_15-Pipe sizing.jpg (70 downloads)


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#487167 - 03/13/18 04:17 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Neo07]
Redonthehead Online   content
Fingerling

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 152
Loc: Missouri
Well thats very helpful, and will be fine tuned once they visit to see the site. When they come out ask about the use of that double wall HPDE corrugated pipe. I'm skeptical it and its joints are rated for a siphon effect in a downslope dam installation.
_________________________

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#487169 - 03/13/18 04:34 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Neo07]
FireIsHot Offline
Moderator


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 3766
Loc: Emory TX
Originally Posted By: Neo07
Originally Posted By: FireIsHot
Neo07, you've gotten lots of good advice.

If you're worried about the immediate damage to the back of the dam, then I might look at geotextile road fabrics. I've been using it for several years now under limestone rocks on 24' watershed pipes, and a small emergency spillway. Erosion has pretty much stopped.


I did look into that but finding the stuff where I live has been tough...


Amazon has it. I got the Mutual WF200 Tire Scrub Fabric. It was less than $80, and has held up very well.
_________________________
AL

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#487170 - 03/13/18 04:34 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Redonthehead]
Neo07 Offline


Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 33
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: Redonthehead
Well thats very helpful, and will be fine tuned once they visit to see the site. When they come out ask about the use of that double wall HPDE corrugated pipe. I'm skeptical it and its joints are rated for a siphon effect in a downslope dam installation.


Ok, will do. Thanks!

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#490462 - 05/22/18 04:04 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Neo07]
Neo07 Offline


Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 33
Loc: US
As an update.... I finally got the dozer and trachoe in to complete the pond repair. I ended up replacing the 18" overflow pipe with a 24" pipe and angled it more as to not be dropping the overflow water 7-8 feet to the bottom of the dam. Had the dam build up about 3-4' above the overflow as well as created an emergency overflow of about 15' wide and on a gentle slope. Although I have now seeded it and hope that it isn't used for years to come, if ever... at least until I can get a good stand of grass on it. I also started concreting in a rock tailrace at the bottom to help eliminate erosion at the bottom of the dam. I plan to add a little more to the bottom and sides. I would also like to add a 4" to 6" auto siphon to the top of the dam just as an added safety measure.. just hate to dig back into the dam....


Attachments
IMG_6302.jpg (58 downloads)
IMG_6298.jpg (50 downloads)
IMG_6300.jpg (46 downloads)
IMG_6304.jpg (55 downloads)



Edited by Neo07 (05/22/18 04:04 PM)

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#490471 - 05/22/18 07:01 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Neo07]
Pat Williamson Offline


Registered: 08/08/14
Posts: 2316
Loc: Oakwood,Texas
Looks like topsoil on the dam around the spillway, I like to pack clay around and on top to make sure it doesn’t wash next to pipe and bypass it....on the downside of the dam you might have to extend the rock and concrete so it don’t wash so bad

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#490524 - 05/23/18 09:59 AM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Pat Williamson]
Neo07 Offline


Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 33
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: Pat Williamson
Looks like topsoil on the dam around the spillway, I like to pack clay around and on top to make sure it doesn’t wash next to pipe and bypass it....on the downside of the dam you might have to extend the rock and concrete so it don’t wash so bad


Yes, about the last 2" I had them put topsoil to help expedite the growth of grass/foliage on the top and sides of the dam, the rest is good clay.

Correct... that's what I said above, I am planning on adding both to the sides and bottom with more rock and concrete, although the bottom is only about 2' from the creek bed now. It is just difficult to see from that pic.

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