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#485728 - 01/31/18 09:23 AM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Rainman]
Neo07 Offline


Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 39
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: Rainman
An E-spillway is a must, and you got the idea right....the level of the E-spillway should be about 6"- to a foot above the top of your primary drain, slope AWAY from the dam slowly, and be at least 15 feet wide and well vegetated to prevent erosion/washout if used.

As for your drain pipe.....2 ways to fix it...pull out the rip-rap, re-grade and compact the eroded soil in a curved shape to channel the water, then put down heavy plastic or geotextile fabric and re-lay the rip-rap....this will eventually fail again years later.......best way is to pour a quality, concrete tail race, also in a channeled shape with rip rap on the edges to help keep water on the concrete.

As for the pond side of your pond, check out PondDamPiping.com and get the correct sze trash rack to prevent blockages


Thank you Rainman, sounds like some good advice... I believe that is what I am going to work on. I am going to have to sump the water level down first so I can get that done.

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#485729 - 01/31/18 09:31 AM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: RAH]
Neo07 Offline


Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 39
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: RAH
Getting the dam higher such that water will run around it, not over it, during flooding would be my priority (feet of free-board above gently sloping emergency spillway in virgin soil). Just dumping more dirt on top is unlikely to work well. Any topsoil on the top of the dam really needs to be removed, and the core of the dam raised in elevation in compacted layers. I know this is not what you want to hear, but if you can swing the cost now, it will likely save you money in the long run. It would also be money well spent to lower your water level and install the drain pipe properly now. On my second pond, I went through 2 contractors before hiring folks to fix problems which included replacing a poorly installed drain pipe and raising the dam height. In my case, I did this before the pond filled and I have a worry-free pond. I had not budgeted for this, but things don't always go as planned, and there are a lot of dirt pushers out there. Finding a pond builder is a lot harder. I built my 3rd pond myself but it has yet to be tested, so I cannot claim success yet.


I think I can do the emergency spillway to the right of the drain. It actually has an old logging road that follows the natural path of the hillside and I could then slope it gently down the hill into the creek where the current overflow is now going. Thanks.

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#485734 - 01/31/18 10:28 AM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Neo07]
RAH Online   content
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4212
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
Be sure to cut the bottom of the emergency spillway a foot or more higher than the top of the primary pipe elevation so it will not take water until the primary pipe cannot handle it. A simple homemade anti-vortex device will also maximize the flow through the pipe.

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#485737 - 01/31/18 01:16 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: RAH]
Neo07 Offline


Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 39
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: RAH
Be sure to cut the bottom of the emergency spillway a foot or more higher than the top of the primary pipe elevation so it will not take water until the primary pipe cannot handle it. A simple homemade anti-vortex device will also maximize the flow through the pipe.


Gotcha, thx!

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#485745 - 01/31/18 06:10 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Neo07]
FireIsHot Offline
Moderator


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 3837
Loc: Emory TX
Neo07, you've gotten lots of good advice.

If you're worried about the immediate damage to the back of the dam, then I might look at geotextile road fabrics. I've been using it for several years now under limestone rocks on 24' watershed pipes, and a small emergency spillway. Erosion has pretty much stopped.
_________________________
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#485746 - 01/31/18 06:52 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: FireIsHot]
Neo07 Offline


Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 39
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: FireIsHot
Neo07, you've gotten lots of good advice.

If you're worried about the immediate damage to the back of the dam, then I might look at geotextile road fabrics. I've been using it for several years now under limestone rocks on 24' watershed pipes, and a small emergency spillway. Erosion has pretty much stopped.


I agree.

Ok, thanks, I will.

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#485755 - 01/31/18 09:41 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Neo07]
gully washer Offline


Registered: 01/07/13
Posts: 327
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Neo07


On the emergency spillway, I am not sure clear on what you are saying, but I assume it is a spot in the dam that is higher than the exit pipe and around 2 ft less than the top of the dam.... I could possibly do that on the far right side of the dam, as it was natural hillside and not man made. So I guess if I built the dam up all the way across except for a few feet on the right side of the exit pipe that could work..?


Yes, thatís the right ideaÖ.........Ö. You might consult with your dirt guy about raising the dam 3' or 4'. A dozer can get it done in a few days, whereas using a tractor could take weeks.(depending on number of hours per day spent in the tractor seat) Maybe the dirt guy will feel guilty for not doing a proper build, and cut you a deal. From the pics, it certainly looks like he knows how to work dirt, and he should understand the need for some free board, and a spillway.

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#485767 - 02/01/18 12:36 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: gully washer]
Neo07 Offline


Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 39
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: gully washer
Originally Posted By: Neo07


On the emergency spillway, I am not sure clear on what you are saying, but I assume it is a spot in the dam that is higher than the exit pipe and around 2 ft less than the top of the dam.... I could possibly do that on the far right side of the dam, as it was natural hillside and not man made. So I guess if I built the dam up all the way across except for a few feet on the right side of the exit pipe that could work..?


Yes, thatís the right ideaÖ.........Ö. You might consult with your dirt guy about raising the dam 3' or 4'. A dozer can get it done in a few days, whereas using a tractor could take weeks.(depending on number of hours per day spent in the tractor seat) Maybe the dirt guy will feel guilty for not doing a proper build, and cut you a deal. From the pics, it certainly looks like he knows how to work dirt, and he should understand the need for some free board, and a spillway.


Ok, sounds good... well actually, the guy doing the dozer work was a friend of my sons... he had built a few ponds but had only been using a dozer for about a year. I have less than 1500.00 in the whole thing. Of course now it looks like I'm going to have to make a couple of mods, but all in all I am pleased with it. Thx.

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#487101 - 03/12/18 12:17 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: gully washer]
Neo07 Offline


Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 39
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: gully washer
Hello Neo, welcome to the forum. Myself and others wish that we would have found this forum before building our ponds, as I wish that you would have found this forum before constructing your pond.

Hate to be a downer and I hope that I am wrong, but from looking at the pics I suspect itís just a matter of time before the runoff from a heavy rain event completely overwhelms that shallow buried 15Ē drain pipe. The resulting flow of water over the dam could completely unearth the pipe as it carves a deep trench thru the dam, draining the pond

Normally, the top of the primary drain pipe should be about 1ft below the level of the emergency spillway. ( the spillway is a wide flat path going around the end of the dam, over undisturbed soil, often covered with grass, rip rap, or concrete) The elevation of the emergency spillway should be 2 or more feet lower than the top of the dam. The difference in elevation from the top of dam to the spillway is known as the free board. (from the pictures it appears you only have less than 1ft of freeboard above the primary drain)

When determining the size of the primary and secondary drains it is important to calculate the area of watershed which funnels into the pond. From the pictures it appears to me that your pond could receive a massive influx of water during a heavy rain event. (then again, I donít know the total size of the watershed, or how much of the runoff may be diverted around the pond)

Personally, I would either lower the primary drain, or increase the height of the dam, thereby increasing the free board. And I would definitely use a tractor or other equipment to carve an emergency spillway around the dam.

If you do add to the existing drain pipe down the backside of the dam you should probably dig a trench and bury the pipe, as a way of anchoring it. A 15Ē lightweight pipe pulling a siphon needs to be securely anchored.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that your pond is actually pretty cool looking, and I hope you're successful with it.


Ok.... well the predicted did happen... so now, I am planning on digging an emergency spillway in the area indicated on the pics... I believe this is an old logging road cut into the hillside probably 15-20 years ago so it should be solid. I was planning on just digging it out with my Kioti backhoe and FEL. I know I donít have much freeboard and Iím planning on building the dam up some over the current pipe with the excess dirt I take out for the spillway. Although some of the dirt will also be used to fix the dam on the overflow side where it is washed out. I would like some ideas as to if this is the best way to do it without spending a fortune. I am going to create a concrete and rock tailrace under the overflow pipe as well to keep it from eating away the dam on the overflow side.
The way I see it right now I have possibly 3 options, as listed below:
1) Dig out an emergency spillway on the area marked in the pic. It is probably about 75' to the ravine from the pond that I would need to dig out.
2) Remove the existing 18" overflow and create a concrete spillway wider that goes over the dam where the pipe was and forget the emergency spillway.
3) Remove the 18" overflow pipe and replace it with a larger 24" - 30" pipe.


Attachments
Pond1.jpg (115 downloads)
Pond2.jpg (140 downloads)
Pond3.jpg (122 downloads)
Pond4.jpg (126 downloads)
Pond6 - Copy.jpg (122 downloads)
Pond7.jpg (79 downloads)
Pond8.jpg (129 downloads)


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#487104 - 03/12/18 12:35 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Neo07]
Neo07 Offline


Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 39
Loc: US
Also, I am well aware I have very little freeboard but I am also planning on using a lot of the dirt coming out of digging the emer overflow to build up the dam another foot or so if possible... I will probably need to did down around 2-1/2 - 3 ft for the emer spillway as it goes up at quite an angle heading toward the ravine. I know none of these may be the best solution but I am just trying to get somewhat of a solution in place until I can maybe do something more extensive. We had an unusually large amount of rain for our area the month of Feb, or normally it handles the watershed fine 90-95% of the time.... Plus during the time I will be working on this I am going to use my 300GPM semi-trash pump to pump the pond as dry as possible. I had it down about 3-4 ft last week and it took about 6 days to fill back up with no more rain.


Edited by Neo07 (03/12/18 12:37 PM)

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#487106 - 03/12/18 02:45 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Neo07]
RAH Online   content
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4212
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
It does look like you freeboard is small as is the dam width. One additional thing to consider is refitting you pipe with the exit end as low as possible and installing an anti-vortex plate to increase the amount of water flowing through your pipe during flooding. The pipe should be repacked well with high clay soil as should any dirt layered on top the dam. Best of luck.

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#487109 - 03/12/18 02:54 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: RAH]
Neo07 Offline


Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 39
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: RAH
It does look like you freeboard is small as is the dam width. One additional thing to consider is refitting you pipe with the exit end as low as possible and installing an anti-vortex plate to increase the amount of water flowing through your pipe during flooding. The pipe should be repacked well with high clay soil as should any dirt layered on top the dam. Best of luck.


Any ideas where you buy those? I looked just now and the only ones I could find were meant to go on riser style pipes and not horizontal style like mine....
All of the "dirt" around this is clay, so using clay should not be an issue.

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#487123 - 03/12/18 09:03 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Neo07]
John Fitzgerald Offline


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 2010
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
Could you put in a diversion structure to move some of the water around the pond during extreme floods, so not as much water enters the pond? If so, that could save you losing fish, and also go a long way toward mitigating silting in of the pond.
_________________________

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#487127 - 03/13/18 06:20 AM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Neo07]
RAH Online   content
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4212
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
I made my anti-vortex plates. A simple way to do this is to wrap a stiff sheet of flexible metal around the top of the entrance pipe and bolt in place like a hood sticking into the pond beyond the pipe. The plate keeps a whirl-pool from forming and sucking air into the pipe.

Some specs for the emergency spillway: https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/nrcs142p2_023318.pdf

On one of my ponds, I built a trash rack from pieces of hog panels and put a solid top on it made from a piece of roof metal. Anything that shields the top of the pipe to prevent air from being sucked in once the pipe is full should do the trick.

http://www.livingthecountrylife.com/homes-acreages/ponds/creating-and-fixing-pond-spillways/

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#487130 - 03/13/18 08:46 AM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Neo07]
Redonthehead Offline
Fingerling

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 185
Loc: Missouri
As RAH's NRCS link above shows, the anti-vortex plate needs to be 1.5 times as wide as your pipe. I used a 12" wide plate of alumimum bolted over the 8" pipe with stainless all-thread:

_________________________

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#487132 - 03/13/18 09:32 AM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: John Fitzgerald]
Neo07 Offline


Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 39
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: John Fitzgerald
Could you put in a diversion structure to move some of the water around the pond during extreme floods, so not as much water enters the pond? If so, that could save you losing fish, and also go a long way toward mitigating silting in of the pond.


John, I wish I could, but I have hills pretty much on both sides of the pond so it would take an enormous amount of dirt removal to be able to do that. But it is something I had thought about.

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#487133 - 03/13/18 09:32 AM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: RAH]
Neo07 Offline


Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 39
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: RAH
I made my anti-vortex plates. A simple way to do this is to wrap a stiff sheet of flexible metal around the top of the entrance pipe and bolt in place like a hood sticking into the pond beyond the pipe. The plate keeps a whirl-pool from forming and sucking air into the pipe.

Some specs for the emergency spillway: https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/nrcs142p2_023318.pdf

On one of my ponds, I built a trash rack from pieces of hog panels and put a solid top on it made from a piece of roof metal. Anything that shields the top of the pipe to prevent air from being sucked in once the pipe is full should do the trick.

http://www.livingthecountrylife.com/homes-acreages/ponds/creating-and-fixing-pond-spillways/


Good info. Thanks!

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#487134 - 03/13/18 09:33 AM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Redonthehead]
Neo07 Offline


Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 39
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: Redonthehead
As RAH's NRCS link above shows, the anti-vortex plate needs to be 1.5 times as wide as your pipe. I used a 12" wide plate of alumimum bolted over the 8" pipe with stainless all-thread:



Ahh... pictures are worth a thousand words. Thanks!

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#487136 - 03/13/18 09:41 AM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Redonthehead]
RAH Online   content
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4212
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
How did you bend the threaded rod? Looks great BTW.

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#487141 - 03/13/18 10:42 AM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: RAH]
Rick O Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/07/06
Posts: 5
Loc: North Central Ohio
Since you stated on another site that you are going to drain the pond down, why don't you build a siphon system and let it do the work instead of a pump. Rick

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#487142 - 03/13/18 11:29 AM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: RAH]
Redonthehead Offline
Fingerling

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 185
Loc: Missouri
Originally Posted By: RAH
How did you bend the threaded rod? Looks great BTW.


I had bought a 6' stick of 1/4" all-thread (ebay I think), cut it into two pieces. I slowly bent them around the pipe trying not to kink it. No problem. After tightening the nuts down I sawed off the excess thread. Don't saw them off before getting it through the holes you drilled in the plate!

I second the thought of using a temporary siphon system to draw down the pond. Search on YouTube for videos. I used 2" PVC, and only glued the angles and cleanout on top of the dam, the 10' sticks were connected by temporary fernco rubber couplings. You will need a screen on the intake. Much better to let it run 24/7 by itself and not worry about a gas engine.
_________________________

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#487152 - 03/13/18 12:19 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Redonthehead]
Neo07 Offline


Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 39
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: Redonthehead
As RAH's NRCS link above shows, the anti-vortex plate needs to be 1.5 times as wide as your pipe. I used a 12" wide plate of alumimum bolted over the 8" pipe with stainless all-thread:



Couple of questions on this.... did you jut heat and bend the all thread to fit the pipe? Also, can you use a bar guard with this in place, it looks like it would hinder putting one of those on the pipe?

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#487153 - 03/13/18 12:34 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Neo07]
Neo07 Offline


Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 39
Loc: US
Ok.... I decided to reach out to my local Soil, Water Conservation District folks for some more ideas.... I hope to have them come out in the next day or so as I will be using my 300GPM pump to hopefully pump the pond dry until I can come up with a solution.....

But, one of the things they mentioned after I spoke with them and sent them the pics is that I need approx. 25" of freeboard above the pipe, (which I knew I needed at least 18"), but when I asked about putting a bigger pipe in they said this one could possibly handle the watershed but b/c of the low freeboard there was not enough hydraulic head pressure to allow the pipe to run at full capacity... does this make sense. or sound right?

Also in building up the dam, I know it would be BEST to have a dozer or tractor with a sheepshead roller.. BUT, since I do not have either... Do you think I could add to the dam with just using my tractor and backhoe, and then using it's weight to compress the soil? It weighs between 5500 and 6000 lbs with the backhoe. The SWCD folks said you should only layer about 6" at a time on the dam and then compress it, which sounds right... just didn't know it others have built their dams just using the weight of the tractor to compress it. I am running R4 industrial tires on the tractor as well. Plus I am a little concerned at building it higher but not being able to make it much wider... of course if all here feel it would be better to just hire a dozer for a day to build up the dam and repair the it then that's what I will probably do... although I am still not sure if I do not want to put at least a 20" or 24" pipe in place of the current 18"... would hate to go to all that trouble of building up the dam to accommodate more freeboard and then find out that the 18" with a anti-vortex plate and more freeboard still is unable to handle the watershed.

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#487154 - 03/13/18 01:16 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Neo07]
Redonthehead Offline
Fingerling

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 185
Loc: Missouri
I did not use heat to bend the 1/4" all thread, but it may have been better to use heat. You can surely design a bar guard that will fit over the plate - its needs to be a larger anyway - more "surface area" to collect trash.

It does make sense to have a higher free board to enable full flow of the pipe. Since you are only adding additional free board to the top of the dam that will not always have water against it, its my opinion your tractor can do sufficient compaction. Perhaps have the dozer out to push dirt while you run the tractor with all the weight you can get on it.

Have NRCS tell you what elevation the emergency spillway should be too. ie they set my water level (8' pipe) at 99' from a benchmark, the emergency spillway is two feet higher at 101', and the dam top at 103 which was expected to settle to perhaps 102. On second thought just have them design a pond as if yours was not there yet, then see what it takes to make yours "right".

Do you have a plan on getting extending the discharge pipe down the back of the dam?


Edited by Redonthehead (03/13/18 01:18 PM)
_________________________

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#487155 - 03/13/18 01:23 PM Re: Washout around exit pipe on new pond... what to do [Re: Neo07]
RAH Online   content
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4212
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
I have used the back of the backhoe bucket to compact a couple of core trenched below grade after stripping the topsoil (in excellent clay soil). They have not leaked, but I did not take shortcuts on the tamping which takes a lot of time. I used a sheepsfoot above grade. Do you have the topography to install a drain in the bottom of the pond (I used a 3" schedule 40 PVC pipe for my last pond and put a valve at the bottom of the pond in case needed later). Having a drain let me get plenty of clay from the basin to over-build the dam. I tried to explain the advantages of a steeply sloped pipe above ("One additional thing to consider is refitting you pipe with the exit end as low as possible..."). This allows a pipe to carry as much water as a larger pipe set with little drop when full because the water in the pipe pulls more water in like a siphon when the drop increases. The anti-vortex plate keeps the pipe from pulling air which decreases the pipes capacity. Having a drain gives you time to work slower with existing equipment. A dozer is nice for moving soil out of the bowl if things are not too wet. You also get a deeper pond. If you zoom in on the far left in the pic below, you can see the hole I dug that has the drain pipe in the bottom.



Edited by RAH (03/13/18 01:27 PM)

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