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#483259 - 11/28/17 10:51 AM Re: 100% Green Sunfish [Re: snrub]
ewest Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19409
Loc: Miss.
Bill it is a compilation of prior studies and the results of this study (see tank phase and pond phase)on BG/HBG/GG growth. Rather than look for results of the GG studies as requested I posted this which shows all the applicable fish strains (BG,HBG and GG). I will double check but I don't think they did genetic testing on GG so that comment is either an error or reflects what they were told by others (hatchery or prior researchers in Stienfelt study or possibly a prior Wang study).

My point for posting this is to show that hybrid/non-hybrid growth is an "it depends" conclusion. Much more than just genetics. The best IMO way to look at the chart is to look at Growth rate per day and SGR. To me there is very little difference over time in HBG, GG and Male BG potential. Just as professor Neal said at the PB conf. the great bulk of performance (growth/size etc) is due to conditions other than genetics like food , water quality , proper environment etc. with genetics making up the upper 10% of the equation. Those are my recollection of his comments not his words. There are , obviously other reasons to use/enjoy HBG like limited reproduction and aggressiveness but IMO BG/CNBG/HBG and GG all grow about the same when compared as apples to apples.

I am not going to redo the GG thread as it serves no purpose to me. I suggest if one is interested then go read the prior threads including the ones of all the participants from before. I think there is enough in those threads to inform any potential users of the possible risks and rewards.


Edited by ewest (11/28/17 10:55 AM)
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#486044 - 02/10/18 09:28 PM Re: for all you GSF lovers [Re: snrub]
Walter Solbcheck Offline


Registered: 02/10/18
Posts: 8
Loc: Iowa
Hi John-

I just signed up for the forum and came across this post. Some quick background on me, I'm 34, grew up obsessed with fishing, and was fortunate that both neighborhoods I lived in until heading out to college had large numbers of green sunfish. The one I lived next to from 8 to 18 had nothing but green sunfish and white suckers in it when it was originally built. So for a good 5 years 98% of fish I caught were nothing but green sunfish. They apparently were living in the small creek that existed prior to the water retention pond being constructed.

The last four years I was fishing regularly bluegills were stocked into our previously GSF only pond. In that time I caught only one naturally occuring hybrid out of literally thousands and I was pretty excited to catch something I viewed as exotic.

Bowhunting took a priority when I got my driver's license as the fishing in my part of Iowa was not the best at that time so up until this June I was out of the fishing world.

Anyway when I started fishing again this year one of my goals was to catch as many of the Iowa species as I possibly could and I included the HBG in my checklist. I eventually found a pond that had been stocked with a large # of HBG (it also produced a 9 inch BG which was rather cool by itself!).

Anyway this HBG I caught was 9.5 inches. I also included a picture of the IGFA World Record GSH which was 2-2. I personally am fond of the GSH because I have caught more of them in my lifetime than anything else and it seems like the one species Iowa has a chance to score a world record. Iowa has a state record of 2-1 so it seems obtainable....

Until I saw your post about the 2-5 kansas state record! Kind of an interesting record keeping discrepancy it seems!

Anyway I can say with a good degree of certainty that the three fish you have pictured are all pure GSF as I have seen a million of them. Granted I'm still very much learning but it is something I have a large amount of field experience with.

I will definitely be interested to hear what your GSF growth rates are like as I'm thinking about trying to grow a world record in one of my family ponds if you don't beat me to it!

Hope I did alright with my first post!

http://wrec.igfa.org/WRecordsList.aspx?lc=AllTackle&cn=Sunfish,%20green





Attachments
HBG.jpg (116 downloads)
world record green sunfish.jpg (76 downloads)


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#486046 - 02/11/18 12:01 AM Re: for all you GSF lovers [Re: snrub]
4CornersPuddle Offline


Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 235
Loc: southwest Colorado
Walter, welcome to the Pond Boss forum. I'll be first to thank you for your first post, and to say you did more than "alright" with it!

I love it! Another GSF aficionado in our midst. I too, grew up appreciating the classy GSF, and I'm twice your age. Those quality fish have staying power. LOL

My pond has a couple of lunker greenies. One was 11" last time I caught him. Colorado state record is not much bigger. If he'll eat several more fingerling LMB this next summer, he'll match the state record.

Roger

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#486050 - 02/11/18 06:33 AM Re: for all you GSF lovers [Re: snrub]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 13486
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
Another gsf fan here. I caught a monster out of my pond. How big? Donít know. All I could think of was to get it back into the water. Had to go 11 inches to 12 inches with a body to match. I have some questio about what % gsf and bg it was. It had to have been mostly bg but the gsf genes were obvious.
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It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

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#486055 - 02/11/18 12:30 PM Re: for all you GSF lovers [Re: Walter Solbcheck]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4927
Loc: SE Kansas
Welcome to tbe forum.

You, being a GSF fan, are among an elite but small group of appreciators.

Good luck in your trophy GSF endevor. If I don't beat you to it. grin



Edited by snrub (02/11/18 12:32 PM)
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#486061 - 02/11/18 08:02 PM Re: for all you GSF lovers [Re: snrub]
Bill Cody Offline
Moderator
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Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12412
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Check the other info links about GSF in the Archives Section 'Sunfish Primer'.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92482#Post92482

I am also preparing a few more links about GSF - keep an eye out for them. There has been lots of discussion about green sunfish in past posts.


Edited by Bill Cody (02/11/18 08:04 PM)
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#486119 - 02/14/18 10:30 AM Re: for all you GSF lovers [Re: snrub]
Walter Solbcheck Offline


Registered: 02/10/18
Posts: 8
Loc: Iowa
Thanks guys! I feel like if the GSF were to disappear tomorrow many more people would be lamenting their loss! They're a fun little fish for kids to catch.

Interestingly enough Iowa does have a very small warmouth population but for whatever reason they aren't nearly as widespread as GSF. Does anyone know if they can make a viable hybrid? Now that would be cool!

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#486124 - 02/14/18 12:13 PM Re: for all you GSF lovers [Re: Walter Solbcheck]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 338
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
Yes, they can be hybridized by simply placing them in settings where mate choice is limited. No murkiness is required.

Triploids with mother as GSF also very viable.

Appear sterile in all combinations.
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#486129 - 02/14/18 01:45 PM Re: for all you GSF lovers [Re: snrub]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19409
Loc: Miss.
Jim are you saying Triploids with mother as GSF also very viable and appear sterile in all combinations? Just being clear that you aren't saying all GSF hybrids appear sterile.
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#486136 - 02/14/18 02:45 PM Re: 100% Green Sunfish [Re: snrub]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 338
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
Control
Allodiploid GSF(female) x WM(male) Sterile sex ratio about 50:50

Pressure Shocked
Allotriploid GSF(female)^2 x WM(male) Sterile

Several hybrids I have made with WM have major viability issues. GSF have not such problems and often show some level of fertility, in at least one sex. WM and GSF not close kin. GSF more closely related to other Lepomis than WM. WM in my opinion should not be in Lepomis.
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#486145 - 02/14/18 05:05 PM Re: 100% Green Sunfish [Re: snrub]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19409
Loc: Miss.
The further apart on the genetic timeline the less viable the cross.


Edited by ewest (02/14/18 05:05 PM)
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#486159 - 02/15/18 11:12 AM Re: 100% Green Sunfish [Re: snrub]
RER Offline


Registered: 01/23/12
Posts: 1926
Loc: N FL
what is viability of CNBG X WM ?

I know a pond loaded with them and am curious of viability.
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#486162 - 02/15/18 11:25 AM Re: 100% Green Sunfish [Re: snrub]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 338
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
I would assume they are the same as WM(female) x NBG(male). Viability in that direction would be good. Fertility of F1's would be zero as far as I have seen, at least when bred back to other F1's. Growth not stellar.
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#486166 - 02/15/18 01:10 PM Re: 100% Green Sunfish [Re: snrub]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19409
Loc: Miss.
I agree. Childers found that Bluegill-m X Warmouth-f at 69% male offspring have a skewed sex ration (not as much as HBG). The info I have see indicates that a high % of BG X WM crosses in both directions hatch.


Edited by ewest (02/15/18 01:18 PM)
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#486173 - 02/15/18 04:43 PM Re: 100% Green Sunfish [Re: snrub]
RER Offline


Registered: 01/23/12
Posts: 1926
Loc: N FL
fertility of the CNBG X WM is zero, totally infertile?
either direction cross?
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#486175 - 02/15/18 05:12 PM Re: 100% Green Sunfish [Re: snrub]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 338
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
I have crossed WM with GSF, NBG, RE and Redspotted Sunfish. F1's of the first three failed to produce fry even when ponds were stocked only with them for two growing season. I could sex fish, but could not get gametes to express using socially acceptable degrees of stripping pressure.

I am confident of my ability to keep other species / crosses out and ponds were 1/10 acre and otherwise suitable for breeding sunfishes.
_________________________
Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri

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#486177 - 02/15/18 10:03 PM Re: 100% Green Sunfish [Re: RER]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19409
Loc: Miss.
Originally Posted By: RER
fertility of the CNBG X WM is zero, totally infertile?
either direction cross?


No I think the cross is just as viable as a BG X WM cross. It should have a skewed sex ration and F-2 are an big unknown but likely to have similar results as HBG F-2s.

Here - see this from Childers work;

Three of the seven kinds of F1 hybrids which produced large F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing either no other fishes or hybrid crappies were also stocked in ponds with largemouth bass. RG F1 hybrids and GB F1 hybrids, when stocked with largemouth bass, produced only a few Fo hybrids. No F2
hybrids were found in the pond stocked with BW F1 hybrids and largemouth bass. Only a few BW F2 hybrids were found when an 18-acre lake containing BW F1 hybrids; largemouth bass; warmouths; bluegills; channel catfish, Ictalurus punctatus ( Rafinesque); and lake chubsuckers, Erimyzon sucetta ( Lacepede), was drained. The results of these experiments, although not conclusive because of the small number of trials, do indicate that RG, GB, and BW F1 hybrids which are capable of producing large F2 populations in ponds containing either no other species or hybrid crappies are unable to do so in ponds containing largemouth bass. It is not known whether scarcities of F2 hybrids in ponds containing largemouth bass are the result of low fecundity of F1 hybrids or a high vulnerability of F2 .... The BW x B backcross was made by stocking adult male BW F1 hybrids and adult female bluegills in a pond which contained no other fishes. R x RW, W x RW, B x RW, G x RW, R x GB, and RB x W young were killed after they developed into free-swimming fry because of the lack of ponds in which they could be stocked. All six kinds of fry appeared to be normal and probably would have developed into adults. Free-swimming fry of the remaining six crosses in the laboratory were stocked in ponds and did develop into adult fishes. BW x B, G x GW, and B x RG populations produced large numbers of young.


Edited by ewest (02/15/18 10:19 PM)
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#486194 - 02/16/18 08:46 AM Re: 100% Green Sunfish [Re: snrub]
Centrarchid Offline
Fingerling

Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 151
Loc: .
Are we differentiating between viable and fertile?

Not all hybrid sunfish exhibit skewed sex ratios and you can get skewed sex ratios within a species like the bluegill when rearing only a brood resulting from a single-mating.

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#486300 - 02/19/18 11:27 AM Re: 100% Green Sunfish [Re: snrub]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19409
Loc: Miss.
I was not trying to distinguish between any of the possible terms used. Anyone reading or researching on sunfish crosses does need to understand some basics like the difference between , fertile , viable , normal , abnormal and the different stages to which they apply. Also important are the terms cross , back-cross , F-1 , F-2, F-X , skewed sex ratio and reciprocal cross and others.


Edited by ewest (02/19/18 11:30 AM)
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#487924 - 03/29/18 11:11 PM Re: for all you GSF lovers [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4927
Loc: SE Kansas
For all you GSF fans out there, caught this nice 8+" specimen today. BG were kind of persnickety today in 54 degrees water after a cold 1" rain. But the hybrid sunfish and a couple GSF were more cooperative.

Although I do not specifically have trophy goals for my main pond, I would like to raise a 12" GSF. This one went back in to grow. The smaller ones usually get diced up for CC feed.


Attachments
20180329_193108 (600 x 600).jpg (105 downloads)
Description: 8"+ GSF




Edited by snrub (03/29/18 11:44 PM)
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#487934 - 03/30/18 08:40 AM Re: for all you GSF lovers [Re: snrub]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
Moderator
Lunker

Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 13486
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
John, iíve Only caught one bigger than that and I believe the gsf genes were pretty well gone. However, they were obvious. I returned it to the water quickly before I realized that I should have taken a phone pic.
_________________________
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP

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#491089 - 06/01/18 10:16 AM Re: 100% Green Sunfish [Re: Jim Wetzel]
jpsdad Offline


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 119
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Jim Wetzel
Squeeze them for gametes. Will work this time of year.


Hi Jim,

Just a few of questions about GSF specifically.

Could you describe how to do the squeeze most effectively and with least harm to the fish? I'm imagining applying pressure from the front of the abdomen to the rear like milking.

Do eggs come out freely from GSF? I remember attempting this with BG many years ago and found it to be difficult.

Do you seek a positive identification for both sexes? Or can a negative indication of one sex be highly predictive of the sex of the specimen.

Is there a best temperature to test sex by this method?


Edited by jpsdad (06/02/18 07:02 AM)

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#491145 - 06/02/18 08:30 AM Re: 100% Green Sunfish [Re: ewest]
jpsdad Offline


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 119
Loc: Texas
"Just as professor Neal said at the PB conf. the great bulk of performance (growth/size etc) is due to conditions other than genetics like food , water quality , proper environment etc."

I agree with this. Sometimes differences in environment or behavior favor growth potential of one species over another. One BOW I fish I catch 8 to 9 in GSF but have yet catch a BG exceeding 7. There are far fewer GSF. The BOW seems to favor reproduction of BG while favoring the growth and ultimate size of GSF.

In indoor food-fish feeding trials, growth seems to favor BG over HBG. Probably GSF would rank lower than BG as well. Maybe BG handle cramped quarters much better? Even so, not a pond environment.

I notice that in Oklahoma and Kansas the record GSF and BG have very similar weights with GSF slightly larger. In Texas, big as the state is, the record GSF is half the weight of Oklahoma and Kansas records. Also it is only 65% the weight of the Texas record BG. Odd? Or should this be expected?

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#491152 - 06/02/18 02:03 PM Re: 100% Green Sunfish [Re: jpsdad]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4927
Loc: SE Kansas
I wonder if GSF do not have a higher metabolic rate than BG. Comcerning feeding fish food it is not for lack of eating. If I fish some for BG after feeding and catch a GSF, its belly will be extended to the point it looks like it is ready to pop. I watched a GSF feed on pellets the other night. The BG would grab a pellet and go. This particular GSF was hogging them one right after another like a CC would. They will gorge themselves on pellets.

So if GSF grow slower, it is not for lack of eating.


Edited by snrub (06/02/18 02:04 PM)
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#491202 - 06/03/18 09:25 PM Re: 100% Green Sunfish [Re: snrub]
jpsdad Offline


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 119
Loc: Texas
Interesting observation snrub.

When I catch GSF I don't know how to determine its gender. I once caught a male that I though for certain was a female because its belly was so distended. It was a male however and its gullet was utterly full with a 2 inch cray, a small fish that I think was YOY GSF., and a fair amount of gunk that I couldn't identify. They hit inline spinners very well and I wonder if they don't prefer fish over insects.

I wonder which tends to grow larger, the male or female GSF?

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