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#485331 - 01/17/18 05:13 PM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: RAH]
azteca Offline


Registered: 07/08/16
Posts: 144
Loc: QUEBEC
Hello.

A study made in U.S.A, reported here in the newspapers.



https://translate.google.com/translate?h...e7a677694d228dc

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#485346 - 01/17/18 08:52 PM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: azteca]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5166
Loc: SE Kansas
Interesting article.

Thing is, do we really want them to be all that successful in reproducing? In other words, does it really matter in actual practice?
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#485351 - 01/18/18 02:35 AM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: Bill Cody]
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4229
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
I'll try to get pictures next year. When is it certain that the SMB have finished spawning and caring for nest? As far as becoming hook shy, so far only one has been caught a single time. I am concerned mostly about injuring these stockers before they successfully spawn. The cover protects forage , but must also increase the chances for SMB fry to survive. Now it just needs to warm up! Maybe you'll be west of Indy this summer and want to wet a line?

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#485357 - 01/18/18 09:49 AM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: RAH]
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12468
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
RAH - For your location my best guess the SMB fry are free swimming as a school by May 20-27. Soon after LMB get started spawning well. SMB normally spawn 1-2 weeks before the LMB. Again as a reminder, if you get recruitment of the SMB, the pond is less likely to produce the maximum sized SMB trophies.


Edited by Bill Cody (01/18/18 09:50 AM)
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#485360 - 01/18/18 10:11 AM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: RAH]
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4229
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
I understand that more mouths to feed equals smaller fish, and that I have somewhat conflicting goals. I plan to leave the forage be with the possible harvest of a few large YP if they are caught. I am hoping that some SMB survive, but I won't be taking any action to favor this except keeping good cover for small fish. I'll wait till June to see if I can catch a SMB and take a photo. I will not be removing any big SMB and hopefully these will continue to free-feed. I still do not know if the papershells did OK near the stone peer, so I will need to get out with a light and check on this when things warm up. I only added 100, so it will likely take some time for them to reach carrying capacity. The plants should help.

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#485364 - 01/18/18 10:39 AM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: RAH]
ewest Offline
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Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19534
Loc: Miss.
There are a few tricks to help SMB reproduction and fry survival. They are in the SMB archive. A log or wood cover near the nest is one of the aids mentioned. In the pic below there is a wood pier about 6-8 feet away with pilings and cross pieces in the water.




Attachments
Bacc 15 (158).jpg (553 downloads)



Edited by ewest (01/18/18 10:40 AM)
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#485367 - 01/18/18 11:54 AM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: RAH]
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4229
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
I am a bit conflicted. I did add rock structures before the pond filled to provide SMB spawning sites because I do not want to keep stocking, but more predators means smaller predators. My issues are knowing what numbers of each species and their sizes, and also how that interacts with the available cover to affect future fish population dynamics. There are a lot of variables even if one understands the basic principles. I guess the uncertainty and the prospects of experimenting are part of the fun for me. Having a place to pick the brains of experts and discuss issues makes it a whole lot of fun.

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#485371 - 01/18/18 02:30 PM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: RAH]
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
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Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
You are conflicted because your goals are not firmly established and somewhat conflicted. Producing the biggest SMB involves limiting their reproduction to none or minimal reproduction. Not wanting to ladder stock then infringes on the best method to achieve trophy SMB. So if you like the uncertainly, experimenting, and to learn the basic fishery management principles then encourage the SMB to be prolific. Your experimenting should still allow you to produce some 3-4 lb (16.5"-19") smallies in one acre.


Edited by Bill Cody (01/18/18 02:33 PM)
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#485373 - 01/18/18 03:03 PM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: RAH]
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4229
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
My goals are not conflicted, but rather not possible... (Big fish of all species). My strategy for trophy SMB is to follow your advice and leave things be (low apex predator numbers relative to prey). If the SMB reproduce prolifically, then I will need to remove many of them by fishing, but may fail. Not ladder stocking should work for getting a few very big SMB, if I understand things. Since you indicate they can live up to 15 years, it is possible that the existing 20 SMB might produce some offspring even if it is not every year and in very small numbers (which sounds like it might be ideal for trophy SMB). With no electric nearby for winter aeration, a low DO event could change everything (hoping the snow covered ice melts soon). I should have a barn with electric close enough to the BG/LMB pond by spring, so I can get a system for keeping a hole in the ice open on that pond. I also need to see how the LMB are doing after the partial fish kill a few years back. The BG seem fat and growing well.

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#485381 - 01/19/18 12:24 AM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: RAH]
teehjaeh57 Offline
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent
Lunker

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 7882
Loc: Lincoln, NE
You CAN have multiple trophy species, but this isn't what you stated as your original goal [trophy SMB], so we've been advising you on how to grow trophy SMB. I grow trophy fish in all species in my largest BOW - but it involves a major commitment to feeding high quality food, supplementally stocking forage, culling underperforming fish, maintaining water quality, etc. I spend 20-30 hours weekly from March - November to achieve these goals - it won't just happen, wish it did.

If you want trophy YP and SMB you need pellet trained fish and a commitment to feeding high quality feed to help relieve pressure off your GSH forage base. Smaller populations of SMB and YP will enable them to grow to trophy size. Your RES will do their own thing and grow to trophy sizes on their own as their forage niche is largely uncontested and the SMB/YP are managing the RES offspring through predation.

Spending required time, effort, and capital to achieve a trophy fishery isn't for everyone - you're reverse engineering mother nature - pushing a piano uphill, in a blizzard, barefoot. Per my previous posts, you can likely do nothing and continue growing nice SMB with your fishery as is.
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#485385 - 01/19/18 06:36 AM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: teehjaeh57]
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4229
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
You are, of course, spot on! I work full time+, have two kids in their early 20s to visit with, am restoring a 1951 M37 Dodge, am having a MX-5 2.5L engine swap, (SC, exhaust, clutch, radiator) upgrade done, also published 10 scientific papers last year and already have 5 more in the works for 2018 (2 done and 2 ready to submit), and in my spare time work with my wife and kids on restoring over 100 acres of wildlife habitat (which included operating an old dozer to dig my 3rd pond last summer (1/2 acre)). So as many folks here. pond management is a hobby for me. I am good with having a trophy SMB pond because my goals often morph based on what is possible with the resources invested. If I also end up with a few large YP and maybe a couple trophy RES then that is a bonus. Projects for this year include getting storm-downed trees out of paths and harvesting the logs for my son to work with my friend and mill into lumber to help with his new home purchase which he is gutting, moving spoil dirt from last year's pond project into a backstop for a firing range and also to add some topography to another wildlife area, and depending on time, building another pond/wetland complex with the dozer. I have about 300 years of planned projects ahead! Sometimes that means compromise:)


Edited by RAH (01/19/18 06:42 AM)

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#485391 - 01/19/18 11:02 AM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: RAH]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19534
Loc: Miss.
I hear you RAH. The most important thing is that each of us enjoy the journey. Each person has his/her own method to take life's journey - everyone should do it their way. Helping people on their journey by providing information and experiences is what we all are about at PB. I am convinced that there is no single "right way" but instead common concepts to be tried in search of "a way". Hopefully we can help provide the tools (information) to help people find their path. Another thing I have found along the path is that often goals change. That too is a part of life as it should be. You are right that there are always at least 100 projects to prioritize. My advice to all is - if possible do the ones that make you happy.
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#485397 - 01/19/18 11:57 AM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: ewest]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5166
Loc: SE Kansas
Sound advice ewest.
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#485398 - 01/19/18 12:51 PM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: ewest]
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4229
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
There was some research done a while back looking at doing things to make yourself happy vs. doing things to serve a greater purpose. They looked at physiological measures of stress. You can guess which activities actually produced lower stress. In modern times, there has been a tendency for folks to advocate for striving for personal happiness without any greater purpose. I am glad that it makes me happy to do things that I believe will leave the world, and the land that in my charge, better than I found them. I know many of the folks here feel the same way.

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#485399 - 01/19/18 01:28 PM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: RAH]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19534
Loc: Miss.
Winston Churchill

What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?

We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give.

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.
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#485401 - 01/19/18 01:41 PM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: RAH]
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4229
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
I prefer Ben Franklin

"Beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy"

A false quote of course, but still...

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#486718 - 03/01/18 01:49 PM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: RAH]
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4229
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
Update on YP/SMB pond: With the recent rains, my wife rescued a dozen 3-5" GSH below the drain pipe. So I now know the SMB have plenty of GSH as well as YP to eat (Both have spawned). It will be fun to wet a line when things warm up and see how another year has treated the 20 SMB in the pond (assuming no spawn yet). Not sure how the RES are doing either, or the LCS (if they survived). I think the curly-leaf pondweed and other plants are allowing the forage species to grow up a bit before being eaten. Not sure how the papershell crayfish have fared. Been focusing on the new pond more, as I need to get it planted. It only has FHM so far and I still about 4' below full pool.

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#487943 - 03/30/18 10:17 AM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: RAH]
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4229
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
Are these LCS?









These were among the small GSH and YP that washed out the drain pipe from the SMB pond (added 12 a few years back). Wondering if they would do any harm in adding them the the new pond destined for blue catfish or to the other pond that has BG and LMB? I am afraid these may have been 4 or 5 of the original 12 stockers put in at 3" in the spring of 2015. If so they are now in a duck pond so not many are left in the SMB pond.


Edited by RAH (03/30/18 02:36 PM)

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#487961 - 03/30/18 05:26 PM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: RAH]
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4229
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
Just bringing to the top to confirm lake chubsucker ID


Edited by RAH (04/02/18 07:23 AM)

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#487968 - 03/30/18 09:28 PM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: RAH]
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12468
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Yes those a lake chubsuckers. They likely spawned in 2017 in the pond they were in. How many of the spawn that survived is still unknown. FYI - LCS like and are attracted to moving water which is why they were in the overflow water.


Edited by Bill Cody (03/30/18 09:31 PM)
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#487969 - 03/30/18 09:32 PM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: RAH]
Shorty Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/28/05
Posts: 4215
Loc: Raymond, NE
RAH, GSH will get just as big too, caught this evening.

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#487981 - 03/31/18 05:29 AM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: RAH]
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4229
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
Bill - Thank you. I hope that the LCS spawned in the SMB pond and that I will have a sustaining population. If I rescue more, should I add them to other ponds like the BG/LMB pond and future blue cat pond (which currently has only FHM)? I really like these LCS but maybe only because I started with just 12 babies.

Shorty - The pond is full of GSH of all sizes. I caught one like you picture last Summer on a hard bait.

Looks like these and the YP should keep the 20 SMB well fed!

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#487982 - 03/31/18 09:03 AM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: RAH]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1860
Loc: West Michigan
RAH, or anyone else, please send pictures of your LCS. I have a few adults (maybe as many as 25 stocked) but I only caught one adult in a trap and never have seen young LCS. SHould I restock? How do I get them to successfully spawn? Maybe the GSH are stealing the eggs?

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#487984 - 03/31/18 09:15 AM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: canyoncreek]
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4229
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
Posted pictures yesterday. Never saw any since 2015 until yesterday in the outflow from the pond pipe.

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#487997 - 03/31/18 02:54 PM Re: YP management in SMB pond [Re: RAH]
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12468
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
""..should I add them (LCS) to other ponds like the BG/LMB pond and future blue cat pond (which currently has only FHM)?"" LCS may not be real prolific but are soft rayed and would serve as good prey for predators.


Edited by Bill Cody (04/01/18 05:56 PM)
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