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#484949 - 01/04/18 07:28 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1641
Loc: West Michigan
For some reason pictures on your last 2 posts are missing. Actually checking other posts and the photobucket fix seems to not be bringing photos in anymore... Others have this?


Edited by canyoncreek (01/04/18 07:30 PM)

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#484950 - 01/04/18 07:56 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
highflyer Offline


Registered: 07/09/11
Posts: 1807
Loc: East Texas
I see them.
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#484952 - 01/04/18 08:04 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Online   content


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 735
Loc: in the mountains
Ok good. I was gonna say, I haven't done anything different when posting them.
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#484953 - 01/04/18 08:08 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
Bill Cody Offline
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It is good to see an improvement in all parts of the aeration at 10,000ft. Keep up the good work.
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#484973 - 01/05/18 12:14 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1641
Loc: West Michigan
pictures are showing up at work but not at home. I have same browser and same plugins. I'll have to trouble shoot that some more.

Your pictures are awesome and the lack of snow indeed is eerie...

I was thinking about what you have succeeded in doing and it really is something that should be researched. Think about it, every year for a few thousand years if that lake was there, it froze over in the winter so that the majority of typical pond critters died. Then in 2018, for the first time there is a pond life cycle that extends through the winter.

Think of all the species from microscopic food chains to the tiny invertebrates, algae and on up from there that for the first time will have a life cycle that continues around the calendar! What will this do to the rest of the pond environment? What other plants might grow that couldn't grow before as they were waiting for an ingredient or a biological partner that helped them coexist but without which they could not exist? How do the organisms that survive or thrive change other plants/bugs/animals/fish in the local area around the pond? How does that change affect insects? How far does the effect travel beyond your pond? Think about it, the one pond in the whole area, at that altitude or similar altitudes, that has life year around!

It kind of blows your mind to think about it. It is kind of like dumping off a complex ecosystem (like a pond) on Mars, figuring out a way to keep it going in that environment (even via artificial means) and then seeing if the natural environment around it change/adapts.


Edited by canyoncreek (01/05/18 01:06 PM)

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#484974 - 01/05/18 12:35 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: canyoncreek]
Bocomo Offline


Registered: 05/06/12
Posts: 1087
Loc: Boone County, MO (pond)
Originally Posted By: canyoncreek

I was thinking about what you have succeeded in doing and it really is something that should be researched. Think about it, every year for a few thousand years if that lake was there, it froze over in the winter that the majority of typical pond critters died. Then in 2018, for the first time there is a pond life cycle that extends through the winter.

Think of all the species from microscopic food chains to the tiny invertebrates, algae and on up that for the first time will have a life cycle that continues around the calendar! What will this do to the rest of the pond environment? What other plants might grow that couldn't grow before as they were waiting for an ingredient or a biological partner that helped them coexist but without which they could not exist? How do the organisms that survive or thrive change other plants/bugs/animals/fish in the local area around the pond? How does that change affect insects? How far does the effect travel beyond your pond? Think about it, the one pond in the whole area, at that altitude or similar altitudes, that has life year around!

It kind of blows your mind to think about it. It is kind of like dumping off a complex ecosystem (like a pond) on Mars, figuring out a way to keep it going in that environment (even via artificial means) and then seeing if the natural environment around it changes/adapts.


Interesting points! Maybe Bill Cody could weigh in on the short and long term consequences of year-round oxygen on the micro- and macro-organismal levels over time.
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#484993 - 01/05/18 08:55 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: canyoncreek]
wbuffetjr Online   content


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 735
Loc: in the mountains
Originally Posted By: canyoncreek
pictures are showing up at work but not at home. I have same browser and same plugins. I'll have to trouble shoot that some more.

Your pictures are awesome and the lack of snow indeed is eerie...

I was thinking about what you have succeeded in doing and it really is something that should be researched. Think about it, every year for a few thousand years if that lake was there, it froze over in the winter so that the majority of typical pond critters died. Then in 2018, for the first time there is a pond life cycle that extends through the winter.

Think of all the species from microscopic food chains to the tiny invertebrates, algae and on up from there that for the first time will have a life cycle that continues around the calendar! What will this do to the rest of the pond environment? What other plants might grow that couldn't grow before as they were waiting for an ingredient or a biological partner that helped them coexist but without which they could not exist? How do the organisms that survive or thrive change other plants/bugs/animals/fish in the local area around the pond? How does that change affect insects? How far does the effect travel beyond your pond? Think about it, the one pond in the whole area, at that altitude or similar altitudes, that has life year around!

It kind of blows your mind to think about it. It is kind of like dumping off a complex ecosystem (like a pond) on Mars, figuring out a way to keep it going in that environment (even via artificial means) and then seeing if the natural environment around it change/adapts.


Thanks Canyon!

I had never really thought about it like that. I guess most of the time I have just been so focused on getting the fish to live, the solar system, etc. I hadn't ever really considered some of the other more intricate results. I think about the lake and what is going on up there every single day and every day I think how interesting it is. You just added even more to ponder.

Only thing I would add is that not all the pond critters died every year. It SEEMS to be only the trout. The fatheads, leeches, scuds, etc are always there every year. Up to this point it has basically been like an extremely well established giant forage pond.

I just wish I already lived there so I could really dig into it like it deserves.
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#485012 - 01/06/18 09:05 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1641
Loc: West Michigan
Can you expand on the list of critters that can winter over in those conditions? I think I saw a picture in an old post of dead crayfish? So fathead minnows can survive, any other type of baitfish? Snails? You say scuds? How about water insects like water boatmen or similar swimming bugs? I'd be curious to see if any panfish or yellow perch could survive now that you can hopefully keep the lake from freezing over.

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#485022 - 01/07/18 04:33 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Online   content


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 735
Loc: in the mountains
Canyon - There is a lot that survives. Leeches, Scuds, Tiger Salamanders, Fatheads, water boatman and LOTS of other "bugs" that I cannot identify. I will start taking pics of them.

When I say leeches, I mean lots of them. It grosses some folks out. Hoping the fish handle the leech problem. This is what the shoreline looks like if you walk around at night with a flashlight.


I caught some sort of aquatic frog up there under a piece of plywood by the cabin, but have never actually seen one in the lake.

I haven't seen any snails, but not saying they aren't there.

There are no other minnows besides fatheads.

The tiger salamanders really interest me. There are lots of them and they do not ever seem to leave the water. In the past years you could see them coming up to the waters surface and gulping air. Didn't really see them doing that this past Summer. We have caught them in the pond and their gills are gone. At that point I thought they left the water. I have posted this pic before but here it is for reference.


My goal for the lake is to grow trophy Brook Trout so I don't want to stock any fish that would compete with them. Brookies do have a tendency to overpopulate and to help me with harvest I do plan on stocking a few tiger trout (sterile hybrid) later on.
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#485076 - 01/09/18 02:19 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Online   content


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 735
Loc: in the mountains
Talk about a journey that never ends...... After this last post I did a substantial amount of reading on Tiger Salamanders. Several sources indicated that the salamanders almost never reproduce in ponds that contain fish. It will be interesting to see if the salamanders eventually move on once the fish consistently survive through Winter. If so, that would be just one of the "ripples" this project creates and that ripple would in turn create others. Pretty neat.

Here is the pic from today. Draining the line and closing off one of the singles is having the desired effect!

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#485080 - 01/09/18 04:07 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1641
Loc: West Michigan
Wow, you need to create a resale market for those leeches. Those are prime specimens and look very hardy!!

I've tried to find a way to either keep them in captivity to reproduce or to find a local swamp, marsh, lake, stream that would have them where I could trap them. Striking out on all counts. It must be that only certain places have them and they don't breed well in captivity?

or, in the same vein as your tiger salamander research, maybe ALL places would have them providing you had zero fish! Yours look particularly healthy and happy. I wonder how the big bait wholesalers (say in Wisconsin where a big outfit feeds most of the midwest singlehandedly) keeps enough leeches in stock..

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#485104 - 01/09/18 11:40 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
4CornersPuddle Offline


Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 192
Loc: southwest Colorado
wbuffetjr, my observations while fishing many high country lakes in Idaho, Utah, and Wyoming is that if large leeches are abundant, and if tiger salamanders are common in a lake, the fishing will be no good whatsoever.

The only exception that I can recall is a shallow, mid-elevation lake near Daniel, Wyoming in the Wind River range that has lots of those larval tiger salamanders called "water dogs" and a thriving population of arctic grayling. I've float tubed the lake, fly rodding for grayling and dip netting water dogs. Fun!

We have the terrestrial form, the black and yellow guys, of the tiger salamanders living on our property, but have never seen a single larval form in our pond. I don't expect they'd survive for long with all the hungry mouths in our BOW.

And, BTW, have you entertained adding grayling to your future brook trout lake? What a wonderful combination those two salmonids would be!

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#485125 - 01/10/18 12:35 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Online   content


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 735
Loc: in the mountains
Canyon - I have the lower end of my spillway lined with really big boulders. Several pools form here and there. ALL of the pools are usually filled with so many leeches they look like bowls of black spaghetti. Maybe I can fund my retirement by selling leeches! Lol Once my fish wipe out all my leeches there are plenty of other surrounding water holes with no fish and leeches to spare.

4Corners - Your experience with those high country lakes mirrors what I read and I guess makes sense if you think about it. I haven't considered grayling, but I had considered Artic Char. The Char concern me though since it seems possible they could reproduce in the lake.
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#485126 - 01/10/18 12:55 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1641
Loc: West Michigan
Wb.jr, why is char reproduction an issue? You now (with the possibility of no winter kill) can have your pick of predators that you could stock that would eat the Char fry and young ones could you not? Say a few NP, pickerel, musky, or even walleye?

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#485127 - 01/10/18 12:57 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1641
Loc: West Michigan
[Canyon - I have the lower end of my spillway lined with really big boulders. Several pools form here and there. ALL of the pools are usually filled with so many leeches they look like bowls of black spaghetti. Maybe I can fund my retirement by selling leeches! Lol Once my fish wipe out all my leeches there are plenty of other surrounding water holes with no fish and leeches to spare. ]

Wow, you are sitting on a gold mine! Just would have to connect with someone who has the bait routes and the shipping and retail part figured out. Can't imagine having that much bait at your fingertips smile smile


Edited by canyoncreek (01/10/18 12:58 PM)

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#485128 - 01/10/18 01:29 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: canyoncreek]
wbuffetjr Online   content


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 735
Loc: in the mountains
Originally Posted By: canyoncreek
Wb.jr, why is char reproduction an issue? You now (with the possibility of no winter kill) can have your pick of predators that you could stock that would eat the Char fry and young ones could you not? Say a few NP, pickerel, musky, or even walleye?


Recent article in the PB magazine got me thinking about setting measurable goals.

I could be wrong, but here is my line of thinking. Trophy Brookies is my goal. Char would be cool and nice to have the variety as far as eating them goes, but I don't really care about them. I LOVE brook trout and an 8-10lb'er is my ultimate goal. Secondary goal is lots of fresh fish to feed the family. 3rd-ary goal would be large/trophy tiger trout or splake.

IMHO, it seems the most sure fire way to grow trophy brookies is to have 100% control over any brook trout predators, hence the sterile tiger trout or splake. Tiger Musky is another possible option and also sterile, but I think they get so big they could eventually eat bigger brookies than what I would want removed. I don't want to have a guessing game going on with any other possible predators that could be reproducing especially if they don't taste good smile. Reproducing predators just seems like a big possible complication and not worth the risk.

If I am going to have to stay on top of harvesting and want to be eating fish, I only want to be harvesting the brookies. To me there is no better tasting fish!


Now I know TRUE trophy fishing might mean reduced catch rates and I am fine with that. We have plenty of other fishing options out there where the kids can catch all the fish they can handle.
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#485131 - 01/10/18 04:26 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1641
Loc: West Michigan
Sounds like another important factor for your future predators besides reproduction is to think about predator gape size to protect your brook trout goals. Consider HSB as an apex predator where you control numbers by stocking or catching them and they would control fish only up to a certain size (baitfish size).

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#485137 - 01/10/18 08:53 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
Bocomo Offline


Registered: 05/06/12
Posts: 1087
Loc: Boone County, MO (pond)
Do you anticipate having a reproducing population of brook trout in there?
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#485140 - 01/11/18 06:57 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: Bocomo]
wbuffetjr Online   content


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 735
Loc: in the mountains
Originally Posted By: Bocomo
Do you anticipate having a reproducing population of brook trout in there?


Yes I do. If they do not find suitable habitat in the pond then I plan on building spawning boxes for them (also a PB magazine article!).
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