Al, it has been interesting to say the least. If I were to do it all over again, and stayed with the high forage stocking rates, I would have used yoy lmb for the first stocking of lmb and not fingerlings. Or I would have built the forage pond earlier and grown out some of the legacy's, like u did. Hind sight is 20/20. Todd Overton has really helped me out, he found me some legacy yoy that we used to restock and they seem to be doing well in the pond. And on the e-shock I am going to wait till next fall unless the lmb wr/rw is real low and then I may do a shock to remove some of them. Al, did u add small Tp from Todd Overton this past fall?

Eric, around this time last year, I read an old post where Todd Overton said 12 lbs of Tp per acre was a good number for lmb/bg ponds. And that is what I did last April. Looking back since last April, I would see a couple of small schools of 2 to 3"Tp hanging out in an area of the pond daily. And by Sept, I would see a school of 25 or so 6 to 7" Tp at two of the feeders. If I read it correctly, I produced enough Tp but it was with the TFS. This year I will be surprised if I keep the TFS, if that's the case and I do not add the GSH, would you have a number(ponds per acre of Tp) in mind? I would like to see what u think? Maybe 15 lbs per acre? Or maybe hold off and see what kind of bg production I get and then add Tp come Oct. It would keep biomass down, what u think?

Tracy, I didn't. I really don't have a pond budget per se, but I dropped a ton on the floating dock, so I passed on fall tilapia and winter trout. No big projects scheduled, so I will do the fall tilapia again this year. CNBG recruitment really seemed to have popped this last spring, with tons of small CNBG hitting the feeders. I can't help but think the sacrificial fall tilapia were a big part of that.

I can't offer up any tilapia stocking numbers for you, but I did put around 400# in the big pond in 2016, so 35# to 40# per acre? The majority of those were grown out here, but I may not do that again. Right before I pulled our tilapia for the 2016 fall stocking, I was feeding 50# of Cargill every 3-4 days. I can buy a lot of tilapia, and save tons of effort, by just buying them instead.

Tracy, our ponds are very different, but here's my reasons for stocking forage the way I do. TFS? My water's not fertile enough to support them, and my big pond's froze over this morning, so I can't even get a surface temp. Either scenario means an annual restocking. GSH? Although I want them badly, they're egg eaters, and CNBG recruitment is still my main priority. GSH have the "potential" to affect that, so I'll wait until electroshocking, and personal observation, show that my CNBG base is rock solid. Having said all that, I always come back to tilapia as the best supplemental forage option for me. Best bang for the buck as Todd calls it.

Al, I understand our ponds are very different. Heck, I don't know another pond that acts like mine. Todd Overton told me from the very beginning, he only knew of a couple of people taking similar paths. Not knowing what I did not know, looking back, I think Greg Grimes was using feed trained lmb when he used high forage numbers. I should have used yoy and would recommend to anyone going this route to use yoy lmb when doing lmb stocking with high forage numbers.. And like you, my cnbg had a large spawn where I saw close to a thousand 2 to 3" cnbg last June. There were so many the GBH did not fight over territory, they would not chase off another GBH just 20 foot away. And, as I said earlier, I'm getting spawns all the way through Sept. POND BUDGET, What's that? lol!! I never had one of those but I am starting one this year. I have to or it becomes a money pit! I was happy to read Eric's recommendation on the Tp because like u, I am concerned about GSH being egg eaters. But I would like to have some 5 to 7"er's in the pond. But , there goes that pond budget!!

Al in most cases of an existing pond I would not worry about GSH being egg eaters any more than the following fish doing exactly the same (BG , RES , tilapia , LMB and most others). Again it is not easy to establish a GSH population in an existing LMB/BG pond and they can have reproductive problems as well.

TGW it is hard to provide easy tilapia stocking #s as it depends on your water and predator situation. For example stocking 4 inch tilapia into a pond lacking larger forage and full of 3-5 lb. LMB could be a challenge.

Eric, I completely agree. That's one of the reasons we started waiting until later in May to get our spring tilapia. Fewer tilapia per pound, but the larger size gives them a better chance of survival.

Eric, In the past we would stock 6 to 8" Tp and never had to worry with the lmb or hsb eating the breeders. And last year 12 lbs per acre looked like a good number for stocking rates. I really need to look at the size of the lmb this year prior to stocking. I am thinking the 6 to 8" would work again this year. Even the largest lmb have been heavy in the past but their mouth was not what I would call large mouthed bass. I am betting the lmb are feeding on 3 to 5" forage. And last year Overtons introduced me to their Hawaiian Gold Tp. They threw some in with the Moz. Tp. I really liked those Tp, easy to see in fertile waters,

I would stay with that size tilapia. The question becomes what size forage are those tilapia producing. If they are producing over the summer 3 inch offspring then what size LMB does that help? The same ones as the TFS - small to med sized 10-14 inch LMB. If that allows more 3-4 inch BG to survive and grow to 6-8 then mission accomplished. In any situation it is key to look at the whole food web in relation to the goals.

Eric, "Key is to look at the whole food web in relationship to the goals". And that was my question when I started this thread. I do not want to beat a dead horse here. I understand what you are saying. Fact is, after this discussion I have changed my mind and will not restock the TFS this year. My lmb are larger now, so are the HSB, and the TFS are to small to fit my goals at this time. Now, if I was seeing some lmb reproduction I might restock the TFS. Or I might try to catch some larger wild TFS just to see if I can. I am thinking of what Al said about a pond budget. Tp(the gold ones if I can get them) will be restocked this spring. Just not sure of the 12 lbs per acre. It seemed to be good last spring and I may just add some GSH even though they may not establish in the pond. They should help in the open water for the hsb. Al, you had to bring up "pond budget"

Tracy, you're getting there, so stay the course. You don't need no stinkin' budget. I only do it because I'm scared of my wife.

Al, I've met your wife. Do not be scared. Be worried, she would be hard to replace, she is Pretty and Attractive. And you, not so much! And she could wind up with half of your lmb pond. For me, I don't have the ability to keep a wife happy, so if you do, you are a better man than me. I get fussed at most every day

Tracy, she grew up in Houston County, so she could probably take me in a no holds barred cage match.

I am a tad unkempt.

I would think the B word qualifies as offensive language on this forum and could get you kicked off!

I made it to the pond today, first time in a week after this cold spell. I found a couple of breeder sized TFS floating. But I also found the pond water still with an excess green water color. Now going on 90 days of this excess green water. Visibility was at or around 9". I was hoping the cold water would kill of the plankton bloom, it has done so in the past. I have to take care of this before I add anything else to the pond. Plans are to catch a water sample today and get it sent off for a water test. I am frustrated to say the least. Awhile back I got a sample and did a jar test and found decaying material floating in the sample after a day or so. I am now thinking of Alum to reduce the phosphates and or a chemical to kill off the plankton by treating 1/4 of the pond at a time. And I am still fighting a drought at my place. I have had one decent rain a couple weeks ago and that was the only measurable rain have seen since last June. Pond came up about a foot but it is still close to two foot from being full. I am pretty sure I can say "It sucks" I need some more rain.

No hurricane water ? Hope the water test tells us more. Can you estimate what % of your pond vol is missing.

No Hurricane water, turned east before it got to my place. I misspoke earlier, I had a two inch rain in early Aug and 3" in late Dec. And that is it! We had two big rain fronts come through in Dec. One gave me the 3 inch rain and I missed the second one, it went just north of me. Right now, I am down 2.5 foot from syphon point and a good foot down from normal pool. My neighbors, one of them is a dirt contractor and both agreed we are way down from our norm. We should be getting 4 to 5" per month right now. With the ongoing drought I ran a lot of well water the past 6 months. The well water has never caused the excess blooms before, so I don't think it is a contributor now. I ran a lot of well water when filling the pond 3 yrs ago.

I have a question. When treating for excess plankton blooms, would one add the algaecide (1/4 of the pond at a time) prior to treating excess phosphate, or visa versa? And during this time of year my DO is most likely the highest of the year, so this would have to be the best time to use an algaecide? Old threads talk of a product Phoslock, any newer reports on this product? I could do nothing but that would be poor pond management I would think.

I would suggest you do an experiment with about a 100 X 100 portion of the pond in shallow 3' water and see the results of reducing the plankton. I have doubts on treating plankton in winter on normal ponds (yours is not acting normal) but it is worth a try. Pick a calm area with wind blowing away to test.

Tracy, this might be an interesting read, especially section 3 dealing with private waters.
http://texasfishingforum.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/12503271/1

Thanks Eric for the suggestion, and I agree the pond is not normal, never has been lol. Would you mind if I asked what algaecide might work best in this situation? Plan was to do a sample area and please remember I am the pond mgr good or bad. it's all on me. PM if you want.

Here could be a kink in the chain so to speak. The product I added last Oct had a sun screen and I could be seeing a combination of screen and/or plankton. Screen was to produce a 12 to 14" visibility. Possible to produce less visibility? but was told no, I wonder?

Al, I am a member of the DD team, just not the 15lb club lol. I remember the old days on fork. There is a hump there where three cedars grew, known as Tracy's hump. Most had to guided into there and would not take their boat. Back in those days my boat was made to fish from and not to just look at. Those Champions back then were tough boats.

Tracy, I like reading about the LMB movement stuff. I've got the first book here somewhere, and it's a pretty good winter afternoon read too. John Hope's got a book that was done at Houston County lake with transpondered LMB. That's interesting for sure.

It's cold, wet, and I'm bored.

I am enjoying the rains right now. I need one of those weeks where it rains nice and steady. And my wildlife food plots are going to enjoy this weather. They were looking pretty bad and needed a good rain.

I had a meeting yesterday with Dr.Changyoon Jeong, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Soil and Water Quality at LSU Ag Center Research & Extension. We talked about my pond along with several ponds and lakes that are experiencing excess algae problems around our area. I have a water sample from the pond but it has to be mailed in and after testing we will set down and discuss the results. Results will be back to me in 7 to 10 days. He also wants a soil sample from the pond bottom. We discussed his upcoming study (this spring) using a similar product to what I used to treat excess nutrients. He told me the company will not discuss what is in their trade secret treatment. It is a microorganism nutrient eating product. The professor told me the company and the product but I will hold off for now telling the brand name. But will be happy to post results after his research and testing.

Outstanding decision Tracy, please keep us in the loop.

Good plan. I thought you had soil sample analysis already ? That won't change a lot over time absent major soil additions.

Tracy and all - a suggestion - consider getting this book.









Chapter

3. Physiochemical Characteristics of Ponds (Claude E. Boyd and Christopher A. Boyd)

Claud Boyd is the preeminent professor on pond/lake water , soil, etc.

Eric, u have a good memory, me not so much. I forgot to go to Mr. Lusk's Facebook yesterday evening. And I did a soil sample in and around the same area of the pond about 5 yrs ago for seeding wildlife food plots. I just remember it needed lime. Other than that I have CRS. Going back to my meeting with Dr. Jeong, his first recommendation was to add aeration to the pond, told him yep, done that. Also discussed the high cost of adding nutrient eating Microorganisms . He has been involved in a large neighborhood lake where the cost was to expensive to treat. We discussed Shreveport La. Cross lake, the water supply for Shreveport, and the excess algae problems. Most likely due to lawn fertilization. He also suspects my problem is due to excess Phosphate's. It is possible it could be due to excess Nitrogen, so the water test will help.

I have a question for Bill Cody. Mr. Cody, I applied the BioCycle mid Oct and the product had a green sunscreen. Is it possible to look at the Plankton and Zooplankton to determine if the water color today is the screen or Biological? I did not ask the LSU Professor, and I should have. But here I am asking you. What u think? Sorry, if I ask to much.

Did the water in the jar clear when put in the dark for a few days?

The last time I did a jar test, couple months ago, I found what looked to be some dead or decaying material floating in the test water. Have not check it this time. I have a bottle of pond water that has been in my truck for a few days and the water has a green tent to it. When checking the visibility in the pond I can only see about 8 to 10". I put the water in a bottle and the water looks pretty clear with a green tented color but looks like I should see a much greater distance because it's not all that green and it's not dirty water or cloudy. I was thinking if it was the sun screen I might see a reduced number of microscopic plants and animals. But now I am thinking it would need to be looked at before and after. Or if it was sunscreen dye would there be no plants or animals in the sample? That is what I was thinking when asking Mr Cody.