Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose RES x BG hybrid feed trainable?

Should have added in the spawning pool.

are the RES X BG mostly male like the typical HBG w/ GSF X

I placed kiddie pools with road grade gravel in 24-36" depth and the BG/RES spawned on them last year. I don't think the bed installation is necessary, but it enabled me to monitor their behavior easier against the light colored gravel background as opposed to dark clay bottom. I used four pools 4.5' in diameter: 3 pools had one nest, 1 pool had two.

Yes. HYBRIDIZATION OF FISHES IN NORTH AMERICA
(FAMILY CENTRARCHIDAE)
by

W.F. CHILDERS
Illinois Natural History Survey
Urbana, Illinois
U.S.A.

In this paper R refers to red-ear sunfish, B to bluegill, G to green sunfish, and W to warmouth.

4.1 Sex Ratios of F1 hybrids
Sexually mature F1 hybrids were collected from each population and sexed. Of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids, seven were predominately males (RB, BR, and BG were 97 percent males; WG were 84 percent males; and RG, GB, and BW were approximately 70 percent males), two were approximately 50 percent males (GR and RW), and one was predominately female (GW was 16 percent males). Ricker (1948) determined the sex of 428 BR F1 hybrids in Indiana and found them to be 97.7 percent males.




Small ( 8 inch) plastic or clay saucers that go under potted plants filled with small gravel will work well.

Excuse my ignorance, but what's the difference btw RB and BR? One is F RES and M BG and other is inverse? If so, anyone have experience with M RES and F BG hybrid? What are differences btw it and our standard hybrid F RES M BG? An ice cold diet pepsi at the conference for anyone who cares to enlighten me.

They are reciprocal crosses.

Here are the sex ratios (percent male) that Childers got with various hybrid crosses. The male parent is listed first. There is some variation in the numbers from other studies

Redear X Bluegill 97 (3) = mRES X fBG = RB
Bluegill X Redear 97 = mBG X fRES = BR
Redear X Green 69
Green X Redear 48
Bluegill X Green 97
Green X Bluegill 68 (2)
Redear X Warmouth 55
Bluegill X Warmouth 69 (2)
Green X Warmouth 16
Warmouth X Green 84

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...=true#Post22131

Bluegill and most other sunfish are colonial nesters, constructing nests in densely packed aggregations (Gross and MacMillan 1981). Different species, i.e., bluegill and redear sunfish, can frequently be found nesting together in the same colony (Childers 1967).

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=119087&fpart=1

HYBRID SUNFISH FOR STOCKING SMALL PONDS
WILLIAM E. RICKER
Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana

Wawasee Hatchery. Area--0.32 acre. This pond
was stocked in April 1942 with 10-15 male bluegills and an equal
number of female redears. There were apparently two principal
spawning times, which produced fish of two size groups distinct
enough to be followed through the season.

Male bluegills and female redears were put into a pond in early
spring, and the resulting spawning was at least. reasonably successful.
The number of fingerlings obtained (46,000) was said, however, to be
less than what is usually recovered from the reproduction of either of
the parent species, by itself, in a similar pond. These fish were subsequently
distributed into a number of waters.

From - http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=150932&page=1

Thanks Eric - I had not encountered anything RE the RB hybrids as everything I'd read on the forum thus far had been dedicated to BR hybrids. Of course it makes sense this cross can happen, I was just never exposed to it. I wonder if the RB and BR hybrid express any different traits? From a reproduction standpoint apparently there is no difference [97% males] - but that also leaves me with another question:

According to what I've read - female BG lay significantly more eggs than RES. Female BG are also willing to spawn multiple times/year whereas RES apparently spawn 1x annually, at least in our Northern bows. Combine these two elements and could one expect that RB hybrids would far outnumber BR hybrids in a one year pond by experiment? If one is trying to raise RB/BR hybrids, the RB would be a more attractive choice due to sheer QTY of offspring. Any thoughts?

These are very interesting questions and observations that I too would like to find the answers too. I have been planning my pond under the possibly false assumption that since the male RES are more brightly colored than the the male BG it would could have an impact on the female's BG's willingness to cross breed and this I was planning to go with female RES and male BG.

Until someone with more expertise chimes in I can at least say from experience that its' safe going the old school route of M BG and F RES.

Just bumping this thread to see if TJ (or anyone) can enlighten us anymore on the development of RESxBG.

Both species spawn multiple times per year. Redear cease spawning earlier. The pattern holds in both pond and tank settings. Apparent spawning frequency based on cohorts is not something I put much wei9ght in after seeing how some cohorts can outright fail from things like weather events. Larval Redear are a little easier in my setting to rear on formulated feeds. They appear slightly more robust at first feeding even though total length similar. I have made the F1 Redear(female) x Northern Bluegill (male) many times with thousands of fry produced each time where breeding is done in tank setting (1,200 to 2,000 gallons) where everything can be seen. Pond spawning I have done easy giving similar results to what is reported in the literature. The reciprocal Northern Bluegill (female) x Redear(male) has also leaked through when female Bluegill are given choice between male Bluegill and male Redear, but has not been produced in large numbers despite many situations where hybridization was possible in a more confined setting (75-gallon aquariums). Hybridization was not a function of female choice, rather cuckoldery on the part of male Redear.

About a decade back, a student and I affixed some red(stuff from Hobby Lobby) to opercular tabs of a couple male Bluegill. Those males were known studs to female Bluegill until the red was added. Mating success resumed when red fell off. Males flashed a lot in effort to dislodge the irritating red adornments.

Interesting stuff Jim. I wondered if any pond fish "flashed". See it regularly with certain species of ocean fish, I assume to rid themselves of parasites. Watched a permit eating sand and flushing through the gills yesterday for 10 minutes, I assume to rid gill parasites.

I have threatened to take my wifes camera into the pond to try and capture some pond fish behavior (get her in there? Yeah, right). I did do some Gopro videos of BG and RES males guarding nests a couple years ago. But there is something about climing into water with 2' visability that is not enticing. My ponds only get clear enough to get decent pictures a couple times a year, and the water is usually cold at those times.......brrrrrrr.

If memory serves, every type of fish I have studied will flash at least occasionally. At least some Bluegill will serve as cleaner fish on other Bluegill when anchor worm involved.

Filming part is fun, but yes visibility can be a problem. I use a GoPro and a camcorder with underwater housing. Former is much newer and more flexible.

What dictates the timing of the spawn when done in indoor tanks? Is it the water temp? Considering working with Bruce and his tanks to create several broods and then move to grow out pond. Interesting.

Cook book recipe I follow is 16 hours full light and 6 hours with night light where temperature is in the mid 70's F. Spawns in tank can be realized year round in that setup if nutrition. Refractory period a little longer than with Bluegill of similar size.

Any tips on how to create the proper plankton bloom in an indoor tank for survival of larval BG? Or tips in general for getting other species of new fry to survive in larger indoor tank.

It takes a short period (under 30 days) of what Jim noted for a complete cycle to occur and BG , RES , GSF etc. to spawn.

I have not had good luck recreating a plankton bloom.

With most sunfishes of the genus Lepomis, I use freshly hatched brine shrimp (BS) as the sole food for the first 14 days after they swim up. After 14 days they are co-fed powdered feed and BS until 21 days when everything is going very well and up to 28 days when higher survival desired. Below is most recent and relevant article to Redear rearing.

http://afs.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15222055.2012.675987#.WjglZ1WnGUk

Procedure below is more practical to rearing sunfish in general using limited resources. See page 14 for larval rearing. I use this procedure at home frequently.

http://www.nanfa.org/ac/spawning-raising-bantam-sunfish.pdf

Both very interesting Jim.

Surprising to me that the RES grew faster than the BG.

The RES and BG were ran in same culture system but different trials. Additionally, both species where each represented by a single full-sibling brood. Either of those factors make comparisons between species based on that publication weak at best. Subsequent trials where both species were represented by co-mingled broods are consistent with RES have more rapid growth indoors in tanks fed diets formulated for trout. In pond settings, results not as consistent. RES in ponds are less consistent feeders under conditions most people have.

That would be my observation in my small sediment pond where the BG competed with the RES. Floating feed was fed but the BG went gangbusters compared to the RES.

Interesting to know though that if conditions are correct for growth, the RES have the potential for rapid growth.

Great input all around. This is the type of info I was hoping to read when I bumped this thread.

I think you've hit on a key point John when you point out competition as a major factor. I read an article written by Dr. Willis along the same lines but it was BG and PS. He suggested that PS were more effective at controlling snails, and their associated parasites, when placed in competition with those bully BG for other forage. I followed that suggestion and stocked PS and BG together. My pond went from a heavy snail infestation to almost none and my PS are in the 7 to 8 inch size which I believe is above average for PS but I never see the PS at feeding time. The PS found their niche with little competition for the snails they are thriving. I suspect the RES in your RES only pond will grow faster and larger without the BG competition for the pellets.

Are you still interested in culturing plankton to rear larval sunfish? Procedure differs markedly from use of hatched BS, but it can be easier so long as you keep number of fish down to levels that will not over graze zooplankton.

Absolutely. A bit hesitant to put money into it and fail as so many others I’ve talked to have done. I’m not sure I have the fundamental knowledge to make it work at this time. Still trying to educate myself on relevant matters.