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Cool stuff snrub! I want to grow these beauties to unbelievable proportions. Where a chocolate lab is at risk swimming in the water. The pond I'm using is aerated and exchanges its water at least once every month so I will really be pushing the food. It's a little .2 acre pond and if time permits this weekend the tag gun will get used.



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My jury is still out. We've had some really big gully washing rains in the last few years. A number of my hybrid sunfish have washed out of my uppermost pond, through three settlement ponds, and into my main BG/LMG/HSB pond, which also has RES we seldom catch, big-bully and hookshy channel cats, a number of well behaved white catfish, and a renegade bunch of black crappie.

Im not sure of their true heritage, but we now have fish with mostly GSF characteristics, although they still retain some HBG characteristics and coloring. They are agressive and fun to catch. Evey one we catch goes into one of my culling cages for the next neighborhood fish-fry cook out.

I just don't know what kind of mutants I may end up with if they start to party with my pure strain BG, my RES -- and who knows, maybe even my love starved crappie.

Last edited by catmandoo; 06/09/15 09:58 PM.

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All this talk about GSF lately got me interested in just what was currently in my old pond. So I set out to catch some GSF. Crazy thing, I try to catch GSF and I caught mostly BG for the first hour! Go figure.

But then the GSF got with the program and I caught several. So here is some info for all you GSF lovers out there (and all you closet GSF lovers that are afraid to admit what a wonderful fish they are grin ). Pictures for future reference and posterity below. I have decided to make Dave Davidson proud of me, and any GSF that escapes me and reaches the length of 6.5" or greater earns the right to go back in the pond to grow out bigger. Maybe I'll grow a 9" GSF some day. So three were returned to the water live today. The rest.......... they were returned to the water also but as catfish and/or snapping turtle food in a somewhat vegetative state.

6.5" GSF 1" mouth gape
3 5/8 GSF 7/16
4.5 GSF 5/8
5 GSF 11/16
4 7/8 GSF 5/8
3 3/4 GSF 7/16
6 3/4 GSF 1"
4" GSF 7/16
5 1/8 GSF 3/4
5.5 GSF 11/16
6.5 GSF 1"

Edit: Taking pictures and measuring sure slows down the catch rate!

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Last edited by snrub; 07/28/15 03:57 PM.

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I apologize for the poor quality of this picture. I took another but it was worse. Seems like I have a hard time keeping from shaking any more when trying to hold something like a camera or in this case a phone still.

This obviously is a GSF or at least a lot of GSF influence. But what I would really like to know is if it has any other genetics in it. The mouth seems a little small to me to be a pure GSF.

Here is the deal. This came out of my main 3 acre pond. I have been putting fingerling fish from my sediment pond over into this pond for several months now off and on. A small portion of the fingerlings have had a definite GSF slant if not pure GSF. Not high numbers of these fingerlings but a few. I have an explosive number of BG in the main 3 acre pond and have yet to see any LMB recruitment so I'm not too concerned that a few GSF are going to cause any significant harm to the fishery and I would actually like to introduce some hybrids in the mix. So a handful of GSF in the main pond does not concern me.

Last fall I stocked the sediment pond with 200 RES and 100 CNBG from Dunn's Fish Farm. Most of the fish were only 1" to 1.5" long. Hard to get an absolute identification at that stage, at least for me. But in the bags, the fish that were supposed to be RES definitely had a different "look" to them than the ones that were supposed to be the CNBG. Although I did not handle each individual fish, I did gaze at the bags for an extended period trying to pick out any fish in the respective bag that looked "different" or out of place. I saw none. The fish looked very uniform with nothing to make me suspect there were any off species. Does not mean there were not, just not that I could tell.

I had previously put FHM also in this sediment pond from my forage pond. I hand sorted a small number of these and am sure only FHM were in the traps.

One other twist to this story is that after stocking the CNBG and RES from Dunn's along with my own FHM, I happened to catch 4 nice RES out of my main pond in the 6" to 9" range. All four fish were definitely RES, but one that appeared to be a male did have some reddish tint to the edges of the fins suggesting it could have had some other genetic influence (such as GSF) although the mouth was small and in every other aspect looked like the other RES. These four fish also went into the sediment pond.

I have been trapping fingerling fish (minnow traps)most all summer out of this sediment pond and transferring them to my main 3 acre pond. Probably one in every 30 fish has definite GSF characteristics. What I can not tell for sure is if they are pure GSF (some of them look like it) or if they are hybrids. If they are hybrids, I welcome them. If pure GSF, not so much so (although as I mentioned, I'm not terribly worried given the gazillion BG they are being mixed in with). I've probably put a total of around 500 fingerling fish transferred from this sediment pond to the main pond. From my best identification attempts they seem to be mostly CNBG with a fair number of RES (they definitely look different than the CNBG and the larger ones can have a tiny orange or red speck on the ear tab - GSF influence will usually have more of a reddish translucent margin around all of the tab rather than a solid looking speck of color at the end of the tab). Then there are also some obvious hybrids based on the GSF markings influence but an obviously too small mouth for pure GSF. Then a few that just look like GSF. (I have looked at a LOT of small GSF out of my old pond by trapping them in minnow traps last summer).

Ok this is getting way past long winded. But the point is, the picture below is one of these fish that was transferred earlier this summer into my main pond from the sediment pond. Caught this one last night in the main pond and it has grown from around 2" up to this 5" fish. It looks like a lot of GSF influence for sure. But does anyone see any other species in it to make them believe it is a hybrid? The mouth is big, but it just does not seem like as big of mouth as the native GSF that come from my old pond.

So that is my question. Is this a pure GSF, or a hybrid? My hopes is that it is a hybrid. If it is, it has the potential to get larger than a pure GSF and make a nice fish. (It went back in the pond, by the way). For one fish, it makes little difference. But the question in my mind is, am I transferring a number of GSF over into my main pond, or are all of them actually hybrids????

There should have been no GSF in the sediment pond. Obviously either the one large RES (over 8") that had the red margins on the fins was a hybrid and did a bang up job of reproducing its genetics with one of the other RES and his genetic GSF portion really came out, or the genetics from Dunns was less than stellar. Or somehow GSF got into this sediment pond. I do know that I did get at least a number of pure RES and CNBG from Dunn's because I have caught a number of both from the sediment pond in the 5-6" range that looked fine (and also transferred them to my main pond). So I know not all the fish could have had GSF or been hybrids. And yet all the fish in the bags looked uniform....... Tis a puzzlement!

All the runoff water to this pond comes from my property either from a farm field or farmstead. No water where GSF could come from. I have added no GSF to this pond other than the one RES that I would have said was a very colorful male with the potential to have some GSF genes based on the reddish tint on the borders of his fins (he had a small mouth). I've had trouble with Dunn's fish purity before ( see ye old fish truck strikes again ) and the 200 RES were actually free replacements from my previous experience (I bought the 100 CNBG). Thus my care in observing all the fish in the bags to look for "off" types or anything that would suggest the lot was un-pure. And I know a lot were pure because I have now caught them and both the RES and CNBG look fine. I do have regular green herons, GBH and a great white egret that have visited regularly since last fall, but most foo-foo the idea that birds carry and stock fish in ponds. Raining GSF and they came from the farm field anyone?

I am at a loss where all the GSF influence has came from. I can only guess and have no really good guesses.

Ok, this is EXTRA long winded. For anyone that has made it this far, is the picture below a pure GSF or a hybrid with a lot of GSF characteristics? And if it is a pure GSF, where the heck did it come from? If it is a hybrid, I hope I have transferred lots of them into my pond. If it is pure GSF, not so much so.

As time goes by and some of these grow to a larger size in the sediment pond so I can catch them via hook and line, will try to get better pictures and follow up on how these fish eventually end up. See if they grow to hybrid size or are just GSF.

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Last edited by snrub; 08/06/15 10:30 AM.

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Hard to really tell what might have happened


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

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laugh Guess that is what keeps it interesting. The unknown.

I think GSF is just part of the environment in this part of the country. A person would drive themselves nuts if the had a zero tolerance no GSF policy.

So is it a pure GSF or hybrid?


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The photo isn't great, but it looks all GSF to me.

That's the thing, though. In some cases you cannot be sure without detailed examination by a professional, and even then they are still human, they can make mistakes, and they may even have to play it by ear once in awhile. Guarantees of pedigree among curiously appearing lepomids are in short supply, I have noticed. And for good reason.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
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Kind of what I figured sprkplug, but thought I would post it in case some of you guys saw something specific that told you there was other sunfish involved.

It looked awfully green sunfishy to me to. The one thing I was unsure of was the mouth size. Thought it might be a little small in relation to body height. But so hard to tell.

I may just have to let some of them grow out and see what they become. If they get to 9-10" size and over a pound, more likely something besides GSF is involved.

Thing of it is, I just don't know where the pure GSF could have even came. I would think (but don't know), even if there was contamination from the fish farm, the contamination would far more likely be hybrids rather than pure GSF. That would seem logical to me, considering they sell hybrids and in general push them over the CNGB (they do not even list the CNBG as one of their species on their web site, but when you go to the price list to buy fish the CNBG is available - that tells me they much rather sell hybrids over the CNBG).

The other possibility I have thought of.......... There has been a lot of talk about F1's interbreeding and later F generations reverting back to characteristics of one or the other parents. I'm thinking by the size and timing of these fingerlings they had to come from a fall spawn. If they came from a fall spawn and the fish I got from the fish farm were only 1-1.5" late last summer/fall, it would be highly more likely the spawn came from the 4 larger RES I caught and put in there. In fact I caught all 4 of these fish within a couple hours and at nearly the same spot in the pond. I toyed with the thought that a male or males had a nest there and I basically caught all 4 near the nest(s). Maybe they turned right around in their new environment, made a nest, and spawned in the sediment pond. If this were the case AND one of those 4 had some GSF genetics in it (say it was a male and the other three were RES females - wish I was better at telling what was what), then some of the recessive GSF genes might be exhibited in the offspring. I know I have had some hybrids about the same size also. The GSF genes were evident in their markings but they definitely had a smaller mouth. All this is just hypothetical speculation. Or a band of mean raccoons could have carried a bunch of GSF from the creek that is only about 100' away and placed them there there in the sediment pond just to spite me............. who knows?

No way for the water to get from the creek to the pond, by the way. Already thought of that. But a source of GSF contamination is definitely nearby. But something/someone would definitely have to walk them up the bank. No way for them to swim.

GSF seem to be in my future at any rate.

Last edited by snrub; 08/06/15 03:38 PM.

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In several studies stating the % of male and female offspring between lepomis crosses significant differences were noted wrt GSF crosses. The authors went back and looked at the data and their best explanation was that GSF populations were tainted with other lepomis genes (very hard to find 100% pure GSF stock. If those guys (professional fisheries scientists) made the mistake then what should we expect.

My guess is that is a cross with a high % GSF. I assume the fin margins were white. See this thread which shows pics and explains how to look at gill rakers.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=256047&page=1

Here pulled this out for you guys


Here is some id info .

From Wisc. Fish ID system. You can take this info or better yet download the software and look at all the pics and descriptions etc.

http://wiscfish.org/


GSF
Mouth and snout: Mouth Terminal, large and oblique, with pads of small teeth on the jaws. No barbels. Body patterning, color, and scales: Back dark brown, olive, or green, sides yellow-green or blue-green, belly tan or yellow. Sides either with a more-or-less solid color, faint dark blotches or mottling, irregular faint light blue or yellowish SPOTS, and/or diffuse dark vertical bars. Sometimes 3-5 bluish lines radiating backward from underneath the eye; opercular flap dark with a light margin. Dorsal, caudal, and to a lesser extent anal fins usually darkly pigmented with faint dark blotches or light dark spots and often a light yellow/cream margin; pelvic and pectoral fins lightly pigmented to dusky. 44-51 ctenoid lateral scales. Body shape and size: Body laterally compressed and deep, somewhat elongated; oval in cross section. Typically 75-150 mm (3-6 in) TL; maximum in Wisconsin about 250 mm (10 in).

Tail, dorsal and other fins: Slightly Forked or round tail. Dorsal fin with 2 lobes, broadly joined by a membrane and appearing as one fin, the first with 9-11 spines and the second with 10-12 rays. Pelvic fins thoracic. Adipose fin absent. Anal fin with 3 spines and 9-10 rays.

GSF There are 9-12 short and thick primary gill rakers on the 1st arch.

BG
BG There are 13-16 moderately long primary gill rakers on the 1st arch.


HBG
Hybrid of green sunfish X bluegill: Notice intermediate appearance of gill rakers

Let us know what you see and find out.

These should help

GSF



GSF gill rakers



HBG


HBG (Bg x GSF) gill rakers



Last edited by ewest; 08/06/15 04:00 PM.















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Why is it I always think of this stuff AFTER I throw the fish back in the water????

I did notice that the fish in the picture had very white fin tips and belly. That kind of struck me as being different than the the GSF that come out of my old pond (which would have been GSF from local sources likely in the pond for many, many years). But lo and behold, I went back and looked at some of my other pictures and there were white fin tips in some of those fish too.

I'm going out fishing and see if I can catch that little bugger again. Funny, last night I either caught it twice, or caught another fish that looked almost identical within a few minutes apart. Only GSF looking fish I have caught there.

Thanks for the links.

Last edited by snrub; 08/06/15 04:35 PM.

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Originally Posted By: snrub
Why is it I always think of this stuff AFTER I throw the fish back in the water????

I did notice that the fish in the picture had very white fin tips and belly. That kind of struck me as being different than the the GSF that come out of my old pond (which would have been GSF from local sources likely in the pond for many, many years). But lo and behold, I went back and looked at some of my other pictures and there were white fin tips in some of those fish too.

I'm going out fishing and see if I can catch that little bugger again. Funny, last night I either caught it twice, or caught another fish that looked almost identical within a few minutes apart. Only GSF looking fish I have caught there.

Thanks for the links.


If a muskie is the fish of 10,000 casts, then the GSF is the fish of 10 seconds of casting. I'm betting it was a different fish.

That gill raker thing is a complete dilemma to me . Check out the descriptions..."short and thick", and "moderately long" Well that certainly appears highly objective. An actual measurement would be helpful.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Snrub - next one you catch measure the mouth gape of horizontal and vertical axis. One thing I am exploring is using the mouth gape to distinguish GSF from other species and hybrids. The GSF of any specific body length should have the largest gape horizontal and vertical compared to pure BG, RES, and the hybrids. I have a pretty good list of mouth measurements for GSF.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 08/06/15 09:17 PM.

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Some more catches out of the main 3 acre pond. Pictures of the first fish suck but the others are decent.

Fish one = 6 1/4", M gape 7/8", 9 dorsal spines, 3 anal spines. Hard to count the first gill raker because there appear to be bumps at one end that I'm not sure if I should count or now. Looks like about 9 of intermediate length. Could be as many as 11 if I count the bumps. Definitely not short and wide spaced like a RES.

Fish two = 8" with 1" Mouth Gape. 10 dorsal, 3 anal, 12 long gill raker

Fish 3 = 8.5" with 1 1/16 M gape, 9 dorsal & 3 anal, 9 gill raker teeth on first gill fairly long.

Opinions on pedigree? Look green sunfishy, but if they are those 8" and 8.5" fish are on their way to being good sized GSF if they are purebreds.

Edit: I'm having a terrible time keeping from shaking while taking the pictures. It is not an attempt at cool special effects as it seems.

Also notice the difference in mouth gapes of these fish from my main pond and the gapes of the ones I listed a few posts up. Those fish are all from my old pond and are likely old school fish from a farm pond some 40 years old or older. This difference in mouth gape leads me to believe these are hybrids, although they show all the telltale signs of pure GSF.

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Snrub - next one you catch measure the mouth gape of horizontal and vertical axis. One thing I am exploring is using the mouth gape to distinguish GSF from other species and hybrids. The GSF of any specific body length should have the largest gape horizontal and vertical compared to pure BG, RES, and the hybrids. I have a pretty good list of mouth measurements for GSF.


Ha! I was posting the information the same time you were making your post. Did not measure horizontal, but did vertical. Also several posts up, I list the mouth gapes of GSF from my old pond. Notice a 6" GSF fish out of my old pond has as big of mouth as the 8" fish out of my main pond. Leading me to believe they are hybrids in the main pond even though they have all the markings of GSF.


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Don't know. Looked at the pics again and they sure look like GSF. Guess it does not matter.

The third fish should be able to identify if I catch it again. Notice the fin clipped of the bottom of the tail fin? I did not do it, so something must have happened to it. Be interesting to see how that fish grows and develops.

Ewest, read through all ten pages of that link you provided of an old thread and numerous side threads listed within. And a lot of pictures although some the links no longer work. After reading all that, glad we got that all figured out. grin

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Originally Posted By: sprkplug


If a muskie is the fish of 10,000 casts, then the GSF is the fish of 10 seconds of casting. I'm betting it was a different fish.

That gill raker thing is a complete dilemma to me . Check out the descriptions..."short and thick", and "moderately long" Well that certainly appears highly objective. An actual measurement would be helpful.


Yes, I have seen the physical descriptions ewest has posted a few times. I read through them and they all seem highly subjective to me.

Dummy me, I caught several nice BG between the three GSF/hybrids posted. Did not even think about it till later, all I had to do was look at the gill rakers of the BG to have a direct comparison. Might not have made much difference as both the GSF and BG have similar descriptions for the gill rakers. Now a RES, they are definitely different. I surmise the difference in the short and widely spaced rakers of the RES is to allow the shells of the crunched snails to exit while retaining the meat portion. But that is just my guess. Is'nt that the purpose of the rakers? To let water pass but retain food?


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Snrub Here are some mouth gape measurements for green sunfish that I have collected. There may be some variation in size based on how much one spreads open the mouth for the measurement. I open the mouth fully but do not overly stretch it. Measurements are in inches and a horizontal gape inches(mm). 8.0"= 1.29"(33mm), 7.0" =1.06"(27), 6.5"= 0.99"(25), 6.25"= 0.94"(24), 6.0"= 0.9"(23-24mm), 5.5"= 0.86"(22).

There could easily be some variation of mouth size with GSF populations in various parts of the country, however I would not expect the variation to be significant for individuals in the same species. I would expect the most of the variation to be due to different methods one uses for making the measurement. Mouth measurements closest to those above would IMO indicate the fish has a high percentage of GSF genetics.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 08/08/15 09:47 AM.

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Thanks Bill.

I question my ability to measure the gape accurately. Been using some plastic calipers which I find much easier to use than a tape measure, but like you said, how much does one open the mouth. I try to do like you, open it to the point I think the fish could do with muscles to swallow a fish without stretching.

At any rate I guess I have joined JHAP's GSF club because have started returning to the old pond any GSF that looks good that is above 6.5" and culling everything below.

Guess I'm going after trophy GSF. crazy


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There is statistical info on GSF. I will find some and post.
















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From the old pond. 7" GSF with 1" mouth gape.

Maybe have some trophy fish in a couple more years. smirk

This fish was released back into the pond. crazy

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Nice fish. Looks GSF to me.
















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Agree


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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snrub Offline OP
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Just an update to this thread on GSF.

Been feeding for a couple weeks. Seeing lots of GSF as well as BG at feeding time. Caught a 7" GSF and a 4" BG in a few minutes fishing. I think the pond is turning out ok. Will know more in another month as things warm up.

Last edited by snrub; 03/17/16 10:45 AM.

John

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snrub,
I think the GSF are the most aggressive out of all the species in my pond. I catch more of them on artificial and live bait than anything else. I see more of them hitting pellets at the feeder as well. The GSF came into my pond as an invasive species (with the water) and spawned several times the first year. Despite me removing 300) of them to a neighbors pond last summer, as forage for his LMB, I still appear to have more than I realize. Between the CNBG and the GSF spawn, my LMB will have more than enough forage this spring and summer.


...when in doubt...set the hook...
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snrub Offline OP
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Yes, the GSF can be a real danger to plans for a fishery if they get established early. But I have gotten to be more like Dave Davidson in that I like them (in modest numbers grin) and have even been putting a few in my main pond (where well established BG and LMB as predators will ensure the GSF will not get out of hand).

I have actually been getting some hybrid production out of my sediment pond which I am encouraging. Not sure yet if they are hybrid GSF crossed with RES or BG. I also really like HBG mixed in with my main BG population.

But then my main goal is a panfish fishery. I really don't have a desire for anything over 3-4#. So my goals will likely not be like most pond owners.


John

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