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#482676 - 11/14/17 03:57 PM Re: Recruitment success! [Re: snrub]
Bocomo Offline


Registered: 05/06/12
Posts: 1062
Loc: Boone County, MO (pond)
This sounds awesome!

I'd love to hear from an expert on whether RES alone will suffice for SMB or if you also need GSH or something.
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#482677 - 11/14/17 04:24 PM Re: Recruitment success! [Re: Bocomo]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4200
Loc: SE Kansas
In my case the SMB will be mostly there to control the RES population. If the SMB do well that is just a bonus.

Just got done with the throw net and caught another 83 3" fingerling RES that went in this pond. If I am getting predators I am not so worried about getting too many in there. My forage pond did well producing RES fingerlings this year.
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#482681 - 11/14/17 05:08 PM Re: Recruitment success! [Re: snrub]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1572
Loc: West Michigan
snrub, coming late to this but when I look at your pictures of the RES taken out of the forage pond and the RES you captured in your main pond they look the same to me. How can you tell that the ones you netted out of your main pond where not the forage ones that you put into the main pond? Just because they were in a different location then where you bucket stocked them?

It really doesn't matter so much right? You can keep adding from your forage pond whether you are getting recruitment or not in the main pond?

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#482682 - 11/14/17 05:17 PM Re: Recruitment success! [Re: KapHn8d]
Matzilla Offline


Registered: 08/12/16
Posts: 130
Loc: Iowa
Very awesome! How many and what size for the SMB initial stocking?

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#482683 - 11/14/17 06:10 PM Re: A pond dedicated to Redear Sunfish [Re: snrub]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5299
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Too cool! I predict you will be posting pics of some really nice SMB in a couple 3 years! smile
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#482686 - 11/14/17 07:05 PM Re: Recruitment success! [Re: Matzilla]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4200
Loc: SE Kansas
Bob Lusk recomended about 50 so that is what I am going with. It is around an acre in size. I will also get ten extra and put in my 1/10th acre sediment pond just for kicks. Maybe transfer them over to my main pond if they get some size. They have 6-9" size right now so they should have a pretty good start on something catchable.


Edited by snrub (11/14/17 07:07 PM)
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#482687 - 11/14/17 07:27 PM Re: Recruitment success! [Re: snrub]
NEDOC Online   content
Lunker

Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 642
Loc: SC Nebraska
Iím 2 years into a SMB/RES pong and so far itís been great. Keep us updated.
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#482694 - 11/14/17 09:23 PM Re: Recruitment success! [Re: snrub]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1572
Loc: West Michigan
NEDOC, do you know the answer to BOCOMO's question above?

"I'd love to hear from an expert on whether RES alone will suffice for SMB or if you also need GSH or something."

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#482696 - 11/14/17 09:50 PM Re: Recruitment success! [Re: canyoncreek]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4200
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: canyoncreek
snrub, coming late to this but when I look at your pictures of the RES taken out of the forage pond and the RES you captured in your main pond they look the same to me. How can you tell that the ones you netted out of your main pond where not the forage ones that you put into the main pond? Just because they were in a different location then where you bucket stocked them?

It really doesn't matter so much right? You can keep adding from your forage pond whether you are getting recruitment or not in the main pond?


I had captured the ones in my forage pond, transported them to the RES dedicated pond, released them, then immediately went to the other side of the RES pond to see if I could catch anything with the cast net. I did catch some indicating I had recruitment in the RES pond. I knew they were not the ones I had just put in because they were smaller than any of the fingerlings I introduced. Had they been the same size I might have just figured they swam fast to the other side of the pond. But they were significantly smaller than the ones I just dumped in.

The recruitment in the RES pond would have been from adult size RES that originally came from my forage pond. So the source of all the genetics came from the RES in my forage pond. The difference being the fingerlings I introduced came directly from the forage pond and the other ones came from recruitment in the RES pond that came from parents that came from the forage pond.

The only other possibility is I also stocked 200 fingerlings this spring from Dunn's fish farm. But they were only 2" long in the spring and I doubt they spawned, although it is possible. It is more likely the fingerlings from the RES pond came from the adult RES that were stocked also this spring.....that came from the forage pond. And even the RES in the forage pond originally came from Dunn's a couple years ago.

The only other RES genetics I have are in my main pond (not the forage pond or the RES pond) and they came from Wallace Fish Farm in Kansas. And I had caught and put a couple of those original RES in my forage pond along with the original RES stocked from Dunn's. So there is potentially some additional genetics introduced.

When my main 3 acre pond was originally stocked by Wallace, there were a few RES mixed in with the BG. He showed me a few as they were being stocked. But the numbers were very small. I would guess under 5% but that is just a guess. So when I built the forage pond I stocked only FHM and RES, thinking I would raise RES fingerlings and add to what was very small numbers of RES in my main pond. And I have done that for a couple years now. Except the forage pond has never produced the number of RES I expected. The culprit? GSF contamination. I got lots and lots of RESxGSF hybrids out of the forage pond and a smaller number of pure RES. Till this year.

I have been throwing the cast net and discovered that is the way to harvest the RES fingerlings out of the forage pond. Trapping them I only had marginal luck. But in the last three sessions of cast netting I have harvested well over 200 mostly 3" RES fingerlings, a few smaller and a few larger. To date I have put a little over 150 of these fingerlings into the RES pond, about 40 in my sediment pond and 75 or so into my main 3 acre pond (53 just tonight).

Next year I should have RES out the wazoo, with the one acre RES pond dedicated to only RES with FHM and SMB in the pond additionally to support the growth and control of the RES.

Why do I like RES so much? Don't have a clue. They just fascinate me. Now I am finally getting some success in raising them.

Clear as mud?

I have 5 ponds that I designate with names. Main pond (3 acres), forage pond (1/20th acre), sediment pond (1/10th acre), old pond (1 acre), and RES pond (also 1 acre). Not confusing to me, but may be to others if they are not familiar with my naming convention.


Edited by snrub (11/14/17 09:55 PM)
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#482697 - 11/14/17 10:10 PM Re: Recruitment success! [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4200
Loc: SE Kansas
My ponds for clarification of naming convention.

Main 3 acre pond with some additional information about my old refurbished 1 acre pond

Forage pond This is the third pond I built, after my main pond and old refurbished pond above. It is about 1/20 th acre

Sediment pond This sediment is the fourth pond I built to manage sediment and nutrients entering the main pond from an agricultural field. It is about 1/10th of an acre.

RES pond This fifth pond I built specifically for raising RES. I did it after my forage pond (that also was for raising RES) was contaminated with GSF and was too small to really raise many RES. It was more for raising fingerling RES for my other ponds. Plus there was a wash in a corner of a field that would make a good pond spot. Plus I stole some dirt from the area to complete raising the dam and water level in my old refurbished pond. Plus by stealing the dirt and clay there it screwed up that portion of the field even worse for raising crops. Plus I got bored and had a dozer and scraper being unused and I had time on my hands. So it made perfect sense that I "needed" another pond. Presto...... the RES pond was born. It is my latest "baby".
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#482698 - 11/14/17 10:34 PM Stocking summary [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4200
Loc: SE Kansas
The information about what I have stocked in this pond is kind of scattered, so here is a summary of all the fish that went in.

4-26-17.....5.. 3-6"... from my forage pond
..............5.. 2-3"... from my forage pond

5-??-17.......2.. 5-7"... from my forage pond

5-31-17...200.. 2"... Dunns Fish Farm, Oklahoma
.......................... Plus 2# of FHM

11-13-17...71.. 3"+... from my forage pond

11-14-17...83.. 3"+... from my forage pond - three were 4-5"

Total to date 366 RES stocked along with 2# FHM

plus at least some recruitment from those original 12 larger fish stocked early.
Good crop of gambusia in and around the water primrose that I have no idea where they came from Edit: maybe from those strands of water primrose I transplanted from my sediment pond. Have gams there....hmmmm


Edited by snrub (11/14/17 10:47 PM)
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#482704 - 11/15/17 07:52 AM Re: Stocking summary [Re: snrub]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 1998
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
I like all of your ponds. The smallies are a win win I think.
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Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
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#482715 - 11/15/17 11:00 AM Re: Recruitment success! [Re: canyoncreek]
NEDOC Online   content
Lunker

Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 642
Loc: SC Nebraska
Originally Posted By: canyoncreek
NEDOC, do you know the answer to BOCOMO's question above?

"I'd love to hear from an expert on whether RES alone will suffice for SMB or if you also need GSH or something."


I'm afraid I can't answer that yet. I had stocked FHM in my pond a year before my RES, and two years prior to my SMB, so the FHM were very abundant and had just started to decrease in numbers this fall. But my gut tells me that the pond is going to balance itself out fairly well, or about as well as you can hope for a pond and the amount of culling I'll have to do will be minimal.
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#482718 - 11/15/17 12:14 PM Re: Recruitment success! [Re: snrub]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1572
Loc: West Michigan
SNRUB, So you will be putting 50 SMB in a 1.5 acre pond? And NEDOC how many SMB in what size is your pond?

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#482719 - 11/15/17 12:30 PM Re: Recruitment success! [Re: canyoncreek]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4200
Loc: SE Kansas
50 in a one acre pond.

Bob Lusk happened by this way a while back on the way to a paying job smile and when I showed him the RES pond he suggested adding SMB to control the RES recruitment to keep them from getting too numerous and stunting.

So I do not know if the 50 in one acre was particularly a recommendation for the benefit of the SMB. In other words he might have recommended a different number if SMB was the goal.

My goal is RES so the SMB are a means to an end, not the specific goal. So I do not know that 50 in one acre is a proper amount if SMB is the goal. I definitely will not be putting GS in this pond (I do have them in my forage pond and main pond) because the GS quickly get too big to benefit the RES and would just take up biomass space in the pond.

I think it was also assumed it was unlikely the SMB would reproduce as no special provisions have been made for them to do so. I likely would have to restock the SMB at some future point.

My goal of RES with SMB as a control measure is quite likely different than if SMB was the main goal. Of course I will not turn down some good SMB fishing if it happens. wink Who knows? It might even cause me to change my goal for this pond at some point down the road. But a RES pond is still my main goal at this time.


Edited by snrub (11/15/17 12:43 PM)
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#482720 - 11/15/17 12:55 PM Re: Recruitment success! [Re: snrub]
Bocomo Offline


Registered: 05/06/12
Posts: 1062
Loc: Boone County, MO (pond)
Originally Posted By: snrub
50 in a one acre pond.

Bob Lusk happened by this way a while back on the way to a paying job smile and when I showed him the RES pond he suggested adding SMB to control the RES recruitment to keep them from getting too numerous and stunting.

So I do not know if the 50 in one acre was particularly a recommendation for the benefit of the SMB. In other words he might have recommended a different number if SMB was the goal.

My goal is RES so the SMB are a means to an end, not the specific goal. So I do not know that 50 in one acre is a proper amount if SMB is the goal. I definitely will not be putting GS in this pond (I do have them in my forage pond and main pond) because the GS quickly get too big to benefit the RES and would just take up biomass space in the pond.

I think it was also assumed it was unlikely the SMB would reproduce as no special provisions have been made for them to do so. I likely would have to restock the SMB at some future point.

My goal of RES with SMB as a control measure is quite likely different than if SMB was the main goal. Of course I will not turn down some good SMB fishing if it happens. wink Who knows? It might even cause me to change my goal for this pond at some point down the road. But a RES pond is still my main goal at this time.


It just makes me wonder if anyone has compared RES-SMB to RES-LMB population dynamics head-to-head in a controlled setting. Anything in the scientific literature?
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#482721 - 11/15/17 12:56 PM Re: Recruitment success! [Re: snrub]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1572
Loc: West Michigan
Great, thanks for the update. I have barely a 1/4 acre pond and have plenty of GSH and YP, and have mainly RES as my 'panfish' I stocked 25 and had very limited spawn in 2016 and only saw 3-4 spawning beds in 2017. I think the other fish are keeping YOY numbers low. But the GSH numbers are going great guns.

I was thinking 1/4th of 50 would be about 10-15. I can get pellet trained SMB and they would help keep the young YP and GSH plus young RES in control and would serve as my apex predator. I too would not expect smb reproduction and would be replaced as needed. My thought was to see how the YP numbers look after I remove ribbons this spring (you never can get them all) and then possibly stock SMB in spring or fall next year. I would have to split my order as I have to pick up 100 at a time.

Since you probably could catch the SMB too, you could always move them to another pond and control numbers that way.

You are a lucky man to have so many options and so many ponds!! smile smile

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#482722 - 11/15/17 01:29 PM Re: Recruitment success! [Re: snrub]
NEDOC Online   content
Lunker

Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 642
Loc: SC Nebraska
I have a .65 acre pond and put in about 30 SMB. It certainly doesn't seem like too many at this point. Discussing it with Shorty this spring and he thought it wouldn't hurt my pond to have several more SMB. I haven't seen sign of SMB recruitment yet. Not sure if I will or not.
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#482729 - 11/15/17 07:21 PM Re: Recruitment success! [Re: NEDOC]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4200
Loc: SE Kansas
Yes I am lucky or at least fortunate. I have been blessed in so many ways.

This discussion has got me to thinking (which can be a dangerous thing). Getting SMB here is a rather expensive proposition. The fish are not cheap to begin with, but what makes it even more expensive is the transport cost from Kingman, Kansas. I am sharing that cost with another customer, but it still amounts to as much or more than the fish themselves cost.

If I order more fish, the total cost goes up but the cost per fish actually goes down. So I was thinking of maybe getting 100 SMB and putting all of them in the RES pond, then when they reach size of about 14" start catching them and moving them to my main pond by the time they reach 16" or so and remove 50 so there would then be 50 left.

My question is, would the RES (along with a pond full of FHM initially) be enough forage to get 100 fish initially big enough to move half of them? Putting 6-9" (what I am getting) SMB in my main pond would only result in very expensive LMB snacks for the 4-5# LMB I have. So I would need to grow them to a size the LMB would not eat them before transferring.

I am short on LMB recruitment in my main pond anyway, so some additional predators would be welcome to help control the BG.

Good idea? Bad idea? Not enough forage?

Open for ideas.

Caught another 105 RES fingerlings with the cast net out of my forage pond today. Moved half of them to the RES pond and the other half went in my main pond. Caught a couple bigger ones, one being almost 6" but most were right around 3" give or take a little.


Attachments
20171115_142140.jpg (23 downloads)
Description: One near 6" RES, a couple 2.5-3.5" range, and a couple of GS. Part of 105 RES caught by cast net today.




Edited by snrub (11/15/17 07:26 PM)
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#482730 - 11/15/17 07:53 PM Re: Recruitment success! [Re: snrub]
NEDOC Online   content
Lunker

Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 642
Loc: SC Nebraska
Did you say your RES only pond is one acre? If so I believe thatís plenty big to grow out your SMB. The only negative would be they will make quick work of your FHM. And they will certainly limit your RES recruitment. Which I believe you are hoping for. My GUESS is that the positives would outweigh the negatives for your goals.
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#482732 - 11/15/17 08:45 PM Re: Recruitment success! [Re: snrub]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5299
Loc: Boone County Illinois
I would get the 100.

Food for thought....I see you have GSH in your forage pond. If it turns out you don't have enough forage for the SMB in the RES only pond you could always transfer in some GSH. IMO GSH are great appropriate size forage for SMB. One problem though might be the SMB target the GSH and neglect your RES....

You also seem to have a good supply of small RES in the forage pond that you could feed the RES only pond if required.

I think you will love the SMB. Lots of work arounds if you think you have too many.
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#482736 - 11/15/17 09:24 PM Re: Recruitment success! [Re: Bill D.]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4200
Loc: SE Kansas
My forage pond has done really well producing RES fingerlings this year. Just in the last week I have taken out over 300 3" nominal fingerlings with the cast net and it still only takes me about 30 minutes to get a batch of 50. I keep thinking it will slow down but so far if I let the pond sit for a day and come back and cast the net, there still seems to be plenty of fingerlings. I get an average of 6 or 8 per cast. Sometimes as few as one or as many as 15. I get the best casts right next to the shore line in a couple feet of water.

I have also been getting just a few 1" long fish. I'm pretty sure they are also RES but I do not put them into my RES pond because I don't want to take the chance on anything I can not positively identify. They are actually too small to stay in the cast net (they could swim right through the mesh) so the fact that I'm accidentally dragging a few up tells me I had a late RES spawn or perhaps a spawn from young, newly mature RES adults and there are likely lots more of them in the pond.

I've decided to catch all I can and remove them to reduce the biomass in the tiny 1/20th acre pond. All the excess I will put in my main pond which only has a very small population of RES. If some of them get eaten, so be it. But some will likely survive beings I have so many BG for my LMB to eat.


Edited by snrub (11/15/17 09:36 PM)
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#482737 - 11/15/17 10:47 PM Re: Recruitment success! [Re: snrub]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1572
Loc: West Michigan
can you give details on mesh size, and diameter of your cast net or pictures?

I can't catch a RES out of my pond (with hook and line except on very rare occasion) but it would be a good skill to have to learn how to fold, unfold and throw a cast net. They are illegal in MI except in a very few areas of exception but I feel comfortable casting and catching things out of my own private pond (from a legal standpoint).


Edited by canyoncreek (11/15/17 10:54 PM)

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#482740 - 11/16/17 06:57 AM Re: Recruitment success! [Re: snrub]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 1998
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
From my limited experience with fish ponds I would say add the larger amount of smb or at least 50 per acre. From all your post I believe you have the numbers of smb forage for good smb growth. After you catch one smb in the 3# range I think you will be the one who is hooked. smile I recently talked to someone here that can get me some smb for a pond but it will be next spring. Talking to my dirt contractor, we may get started next week on another pond. And if I could come up with some of the sized smb u mentioned snrub, I would put them in my daughters pond now, along with some Hsb of course. I stock cnbg there last spring.


Edited by TGW1 (11/16/17 06:58 AM)
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
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#482757 - 11/16/17 10:59 AM Re: Recruitment success! [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4200
Loc: SE Kansas
The cast net I have is probably not the best in the world. I think I saw it on the shelf and picked it up at one of the big outdoor sporting goods places.

I would guess the mesh at about a half inch but will try to measure it today. I know the finer the mesh the slower the sink rate for a given amount of lead weight.

Mine is about 6' in diameter when spread out so I think it is called a 3'. It is about the smallest you can buy. I screwed mine up early on when I tried using it in my main pond and got into some structure. Cast nets do not do well with hard objects that can snag them. Mine has about a 6" poorly executed patch now.

There really is no "folding" to it. You just pick it up by the ring that pulls the draw strings and the weights and net just drop naturally below your hand. That part is very easy about a cast net. I find it easiest to store it in a 5 gallon bucket as I can just drop it right in weights first, then the net, then the retrieval rope on top of that. A bucket with a top would be good as mice love to chew on plastic stuff.

I find the harder I "try" the worse I throw. It is very easy to throw a good pattern right next to shore. Just a slow gentle rotation at the waist and an easy toss and it spreads out great.

It gets trickier the longer the throw as the retrieval rope can catch the net as it rotates turning your perfectly executed throw into a taco throw. Handling the retrieval rope in such a way that it stays away from the net rotation then becomes the trick.

I watched a good video on YouTube that helped me learn to throw. A video is worth a thousand words (or something like that).

I think I have gotten lucky and just decided to try the cast net at the right time of the year. I have used it in past years with marginal success, but this year it is working outstanding. I think the difference is the water temperature. It is probably in the 50-55 degree range in this small pond and the RES are pretty sluggish. I'm guessing the small RES are basking in the shallow warm water and are just sluggish enough the net gets them easily whereas if the water were warmer and they were more active I might not have as good of luck.

I had kind of completely forgotten about having the cast net or using it. I had been catching and removing GSF with the occasional RES caught in minnow traps and modified minnow traps. I just thought I had lots of GSF and hardly any RES fingerlings. Turns out I have lots of RES fingerlings but they just do not have the propensity to go into a baited trap. The GSF on the other hand are chow hounds and go into the traps readily. But of all the cast I have made and all the RES I have got with the cast net I have got a total of only 2 GSF. One fingerling and one about 6" (that I had undoubtedly missed with my intense fishing for them). So either I have a lot fewer GSF than I thought I had in that pond OR........ they are just a lot faster and better in escaping the net. Which is possible. But I really now think my GSF mostly hug the banks (the small ones at least) and I get them in the traps and I really have lots of RES but they just do not trap easily.

I'm feeling a lot better about my GSF levels in that that forage pond now. I was thinking I was going to have to drain and nuke it next year, but after recent successes I think it will be fine to go ahead as it is. I have removed a dozen 6" GSF and hundreds of fingerling GSF and it is getting hard to catch many in the traps now. So I think I have them thinned down to manageable levels again for another year. Now I am removing as many fingerling RES as I can to give enough resources to the remaining ones so they can get some growth.


Edited by snrub (11/16/17 11:00 AM)
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