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#480714 - 10/04/17 09:41 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
Bill Cody Offline
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What is the deepest the smaller pump can operate diffusers for 8-10hrs per day?
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#480728 - 10/05/17 08:14 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 795
Loc: in the mountains
Bill, the way I have it set up currently is one dual station and one single in approximately 16' of water. These two stations are on either side of the deeper area that the quad station resides in. At 16' the small pump should make 4.5CFM.
Then I have two more singles in much shallower water. One single in 6-8' and the other single in 10-12'. I feel fairly confident the small pump can run these four stations/five discs for 8-10 hours per day. That would put me at .9 CFM per disc.

Just to reiterate, none of that accounts for the Koenders windmill running a single diffuser in ~8' and the American Eagle running a dual diffuser in ~8'.


Edited by wbuffetjr (10/05/17 08:16 AM)
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#480765 - 10/05/17 10:22 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
Bill Cody Offline
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From my winter aeration testing so far, I think the dual and single stations in 16ft of water should be able to mix the 39F water down to the deepest 21ft depths. Cold winter water mixes much more easily compare to warmer water. A little daily mixing goes a long distance in winter water of 33F-39F. The additional single diffusers should be able to help further circulate and spread the water to surrounding areas. My opinion is if the solar performs correctly, the trout will be able to survive during this coming winter's ice cap.


Edited by Bill Cody (10/05/17 10:26 PM)
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#480775 - 10/06/17 09:16 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: Bill Cody]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 795
Loc: in the mountains
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
From my winter aeration testing so far, I think the dual and single stations in 16ft of water should be able to mix the 39F water down to the deepest 21ft depths. Cold winter water mixes much more easily compare to warmer water. A little daily mixing goes a long distance in winter water of 33F-39F. The additional single diffusers should be able to help further circulate and spread the water to surrounding areas. My opinion is if the solar performs correctly, the trout will be able to survive during this coming winter's ice cap.


Sounds great! Thanks Bill! I will keep you updated as things progress. Going to try to get one last DO reading in November to see where we are at.
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#481639 - 10/26/17 08:23 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 795
Loc: in the mountains
Very interesting read

DO by Oregan State
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#481641 - 10/26/17 08:54 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 795
Loc: in the mountains
One more....

Another article made it sound like while my DO saturation numbers will be lower than DO saturation at sea level because of the elevation, that problem declines the deeper in the lake you measure. Does that sound true? Would increasing water pressure also increase my DO saturation number?

Interesting chart


Found it here
Trout and Salmon DO info
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#481687 - 10/26/17 11:01 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
esshup Offline
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I think so because it wouldn't turn to gas and bubble off with the higher pressures in the deeper water. That's my SWAG anyway! LOL

Oh, you CAN get over 15.0 mg/l in water if you are running pure O2 and a micropore diffuser in a tank.........
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#481690 - 10/26/17 11:51 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
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Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
One more....

Another article made it sound like while my DO saturation numbers will be lower than DO saturation at sea level because of the elevation, that problem declines the deeper in the lake you measure. Does that sound true? Would increasing water pressure also increase my DO saturation number?



Keep in mind only a very small portion of the DO comes from the surface area of the bubble interacting with the water. Most of the DO benefit from bottom diffuser aeration comes from moving lower water to the surface where the surface to air interface provides the vast majority of the infusion of DO.
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#482227 - 11/05/17 08:14 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 795
Loc: in the mountains
Once again, can't say thank you enough to Pond Boss!

Highflyer rode out to my place to do some tweaks on the solar system and take some measurements. We now have remote access to the solar system and can see exactly how it is producing!!

He also got out on the lake and got some DO measurements. We have never had data from this late in the year! You ready for this???

We had 8.7 PPM of DO at the surface and 8.3 PPM at 20' deep! Water temp was 37.9F from top to bottom!!

Pretty sure we FINALLY knocked it out of the park!

Thanks again, Brian! I def owe you!


Edited by wbuffetjr (11/05/17 08:15 PM)
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#482230 - 11/05/17 08:46 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5580
Loc: Boone County Illinois
That's great!

...and Kudos to Brian for dropping down to 10,000 to help you out! grin
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#482305 - 11/07/17 08:18 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: Bill D.]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 795
Loc: in the mountains
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
That's great!

...and Kudos to Brian for dropping down to 10,000 to help you out! grin


Thanks Bill D! I agree, Kudos and BEER to Brian!!

Bill Cody - I am interested to hear what you think about these numbers.
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#482495 - 11/11/17 10:59 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 795
Loc: in the mountains
Pic of the cabin on 11.8.17
Lake frozen over two weeks earlier than last year. Buddy told me the diffusers are keeping a lot of water open.

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#482497 - 11/11/17 11:24 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
Bill Cody Offline
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Numbers look good to me and this year's aeration modification & setup I think will perform well. Time will tell the rest of the story. Nice cabin that could serve as a great house for many.


Edited by Bill Cody (11/11/17 11:28 AM)
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#482605 - 11/13/17 08:18 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 795
Loc: in the mountains
Thanks Bill!

Now, how about THAT for a hole in the ice!



Edit: The large hole is made from three diffuser stations. A single on the right side of the hole, a dual on the left and the quad in the middle. I am assuming the quad station still running is what is keeping the holes connected and so large. The quad is only still running because my small pump died and we are still currently running the big pump. A replacement small pump is enroute and will hopefully be swapped in before there is too much snow to access the place in a vehicle. Once the switch is made the quad will be shut down.


Edited by wbuffetjr (11/13/17 08:41 AM)
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#483564 - 12/02/17 07:52 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 795
Loc: in the mountains
When the lake froze over 2 weeks earlier this year I thought we might be in for a rough Winter. In hindsight, I am thinking maybe the lake froze earlier because the aeration led to lower water temps earlier than previous years?? At this point we are wayyyy behind on snow up there. The snow in 2016 showed up later than the snow in 2015. Here are some pics to compare snow levels in 2016 versus 2017.

11.23.16


11.30.2016 - notice the boats and peninsula are now buried. Probably 2' of snow on the ground. Windmills already unable to keep holes open in the ice.


12.1.2017 - Pic from yesterday! Clearly looking like easier conditions than last year. I'm sure mother nature will punish me for calling her out.
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#483565 - 12/02/17 08:27 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
KapHn8d Online   happy


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Lookin' good!






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#483723 - 12/04/17 06:58 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 795
Loc: in the mountains
Usually I only get one "status pic" from the Reconyx everyday at 12:00. Something tripped the motion this morning and I got this cool sunrise pic. The aeration kicks on at 8:00am so in this pic diffusers had not run since yesterday at 2:00pm. 15 hours with no aeration and still have open water in 11 degree weather. Interesting.

The lack of snow this year is blowing my mind.

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#484098 - 12/13/17 03:57 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 795
Loc: in the mountains
Almost two weeks since last pic. We have had some very cold temps up there. Saw one day with 2 degrees. Ignore the temp in the pic. The camera is in a bear box and always gives really high temp readings when the sun has been shining on it. Two of the frozen over holes are from windmills and have not reopened for a while now. Pretty disappointed in the windmills. If they can't keep a hole open in these MUCH easier than average conditions what does that say about their success in a normal Winter. This year with the new camera angle and only ice on the pond it clearly illustrates how bad they struggled last year and how/why I failed.

Not to rehash too much but currently I have a 1HP pump running 6 hours per day. From these newer pics it looks like even the bigger pump is struggling to keep the holes open above the shallower diffusers. In the pic, the only holes open are from the quad and dual diffusers in ~20' and 16' of water. Granted, the aeration has only been running for 4 hours in this pic and will keep running for two more hours after this pic so maybe the holes open up more after the remaining run time. I could also possibly have a couple airlines freezing up some. I did not bury them super deep as I was assuming 3-4' of snow on top of them to help insulate by this point. Clearly we know what happens when we assume! My buddy put his boat upside down on top of the valve box to add a little more insulation but the wind already blew the boat off into the lake (if you look close you can see it in the pic lol).


Due to the unbelievable lack of snow, I have the chance to get the smaller 1/3HP pump swapped in for its' bigger 1HP brother. The smaller pump draws ~1/3 the power so could easily be run for longer than I am running the big pump. Smaller pump would also be easier on my batteries. Smaller pump COULD NOT run the quad diffuser.

Here are my primary questions at this point.
What will yield better results for Winter aeration for trout? Bigger pump moving much more water (especially the deeper water) for 6 hours or smaller pump running for longer duration, say 10 hours? Do I risk using the small pump and it having a problem breaking thru the ice/snow if we have a big storm drop 3 or 4 foot of snow and the snow try to bridge over the smaller holes? I think the snow would have a really hard time "overwhelming" the two BIG holes in this pic from the bigger pump & deeper water.

I'd love to hear some input.

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#484100 - 12/13/17 04:23 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
DrLuke Offline


Registered: 06/04/15
Posts: 329
Loc: Grinnell, IA
I love reading your thread! I wish I had something useful to chime in with, but one of the forum limnologists are likely to have some useful knowledge. Water does so many interesting things as it goes through temperature changes. The key factor seems to be the density as modulated by temperature changes. What would push that dense 39 water from the bottom best. Seems muscle would count more than stamina (big pump/more water vs small pump over longer time). Very curious to hear what the water wizards have to say....
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#484102 - 12/13/17 05:00 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 795
Loc: in the mountains
Thanks Dr. Luke! Just an interesting side note. I don't think we even have any 39 degree water left. On 11.05.17 the water temp was already down to 37.9 top to bottom! I would guess it's even colder now. I would love to get some current DO data! I have been looking at a DO logger than I can drop in the lake that will record the DO data a couple times per day all Winter. Would be very cool, but they aren't cheap!
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#484118 - 12/14/17 09:33 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1783
Loc: West Michigan
So are you saying that the supercooling phenomenon that we worried about is already happening? Is there a temp target at which for sure fish can't make it? I assume the water cannot hit 32 top to bottom due to the laws of physics?

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#484138 - 12/14/17 06:05 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: canyoncreek]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4839
Loc: SE Kansas
Someone who knows about trout might jump in, but I think trout are his only fish of interest and they have good cold tolerance.

As I recall from the early part of thks thread, snow covered ice annually caused DO crash that have killed all his attemps at maintaing fish over winter. So I think the main emphasis on the aeration is keeping a hole open throuh the ice. Without the hole, the fish are gonners anyway.

That is what I remember of the early part of this thread. Maybe wbj will clairify.
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#484139 - 12/14/17 08:26 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5580
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Very interesting project. Unique aeration strategy in a unique environment. I think it would be an awesome PBM article with great pics and great info.
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#484159 - 12/15/17 01:12 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 795
Loc: in the mountains
Canyon - In some of Bill Cody's responses he talked about streams that get cold enough to form anchor ice and still have trout in them. IIRC, the anchor ice forms at slightly below 32 degrees but the water doesn't totally freeze because it is moving. Initially I was actually semi concerned that I might freeze the whole dang pond solid, but a couple people have assured me that cannot happen. I THINK our current theory is if the trout can survive streams that form anchor ice, they will survive my pond that will not get THAT cold. Therefore circulating the water and keeping holes open to off gas trumps the super chilling threat.

I think that is also basically what Snrub is saying.

Bill D - Thank you! Highflyer is gonna help me make that happen.

EDIT: I'll just add this. At this point I think the question is how much mixing do we want? I also have concerns about the smaller pump being able to keep as much open water as the big pump is currently doing. It has become a balance of not killing the fish and also not killing my battery bank! Haha


Edited by wbuffetjr (12/15/17 01:14 PM)
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#484161 - 12/15/17 01:42 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1783
Loc: West Michigan
Wbuffet,

Amazing you have so little snow! We had a headline here in SW MI that our local ski resorts on the west side of the state have 40-48" of base snow, more than the typical CO resorts (Vail etc) this time of year. Strange!

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