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#482355 - 11/08/17 10:19 AM Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond
Flame Offline


Registered: 09/12/14
Posts: 851
Loc: Deep East Texas
I understand they are 2 different fish but will either of them be bad for my 2 acre pond? I still only have cnbg,res,and lmb. Every now and then while fishing Lake Sam Rayburn here in East Texas I catsh one. Usually only about 1/2 to 3/4 pound. They are so beautiful and fight so hard I was thinking of bringing some home to my pond. Pros and cons please?? Don't want to screw my pond up.
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#482360 - 11/08/17 11:09 AM Re: Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond [Re: Flame]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 259
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
Originally Posted By: Flame
I understand they are 2 different fish but will either of them be bad for my 2 acre pond? I still only have cnbg,res,and lmb. Every now and then while fishing Lake Sam Rayburn here in East Texas I catsh one. Usually only about 1/2 to 3/4 pound. They are so beautiful and fight so hard I was thinking of bringing some home to my pond. Pros and cons please?? Don't want to screw my pond up.


They are four different fish in my parts as we have Ozark and Shadow Bass close by in addition to Rockbass. My assumption is you mean Warmouth Lepomis gulosus.

I have had them in ponds and lakes with other species numerous times. They generally restrict themselves to heavy cover when the other species are present. They generally do not cause problems of the morphologically similar Green Sunfish.
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Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri

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#482362 - 11/08/17 11:26 AM Re: Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Pat Williamson Offline


Registered: 08/08/14
Posts: 2108
Loc: Oakwood,Texas
Flame
I put two in my pond and they crossed with something and made a really beautiful fish, haven't seen any lately. They ( warmouth) are a cool fish to have in my puddle. Personall choice

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#482388 - 11/09/17 07:57 AM Re: Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond [Re: Flame]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2003
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
They are my favorite panfish to eat, really sweet tasting meat. But with their larger mouth I do not need another competitor eating my cnbg fry. Those fry are for growing up to feed my lmb. Flame, come on up to Caddo this spring and we will catch a mess for eating or stocking.
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

Tracy

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#482392 - 11/09/17 08:51 AM Re: Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond [Re: Flame]
Flame Offline


Registered: 09/12/14
Posts: 851
Loc: Deep East Texas
Tracy, The wife and I actually took the pontoon ride tour of Caddo last year. Believe it or not that is the one and only time I have ever seen that lake. I have certainly never fished it. But man is it beautiful!! Thanks for the invite.
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#482405 - 11/09/17 01:14 PM Re: Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond [Re: Flame]
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 3749
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
Had some do pretty well after a flood added them to one of my shallow pond/wetlands. My neighbor had a fine time catching a bunch for the freezer. This "duck pond" has periodic fish kills and floods and I am not really sure what is in it now (except a bunch of muskrats soon to be trapped out). Mystery pond are kind of fun, like river fishing.

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#482427 - 11/10/17 08:41 AM Re: Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond [Re: Flame]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2003
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
Flame, when fishing for Warmouth, Goggle eye on Caddo, I use red wigglers in the cypress trees, the fish like wood structure and not so much around vegetation. I have found them spawning in the trees on occasion but mostly will pick up a singles. They do not grow as large as our native bg nor our res. The good ones are thick across the back. They are my favorite panfish for eating. Send a pm this early spring for catching some up. Everyone needs to spend at least one day on Caddo fishing. It's like traveling back in time, using cane poles and quills.
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

Tracy

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#482430 - 11/10/17 10:47 AM Re: Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond [Re: Flame]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 259
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
In my setting the Warmouth like heavier / darker cover than Green Sunfish. They use caves / hollow logs as soon as they pass metamorphosis. Ideal Warmouth habitat I see have near complete surface cover provided by a combination of submergent and floating vegetation. A given Warmouth will establish a route in what likely looks like a cave system where the fish moves through like a mole picking of prey that come out of the heavy vegetation lining the route. Same fish will not pass up a live cricket dangled at water surface over or near the tunnels. Most Warmouth I catch are in less than 6" of water although the monsters will be deeper.

Spawning typically shallower that Green Sunfish as well and less likely to nest in close proximity to colonial nesting Lepomis spp.

The behaviors and color changing capacity of Warmouth are a big part of my interest in them.
_________________________
Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri

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#482482 - 11/11/17 09:08 AM Re: Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond [Re: Flame]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2003
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
Ha there Jim. On Caddo Lake in E. Texas. 27,000 acres of Cypress trees, largest cypress tree forest in North America. Even with all the timber, the lake is full of vegetation, too much sometime. Anyway, your description of caves and such would fit right in as the Goggle eye-Warmouth-Rockbass like hanging in the cypress knees. Especially so if there are a group of 5 or 6 trees together with lots of knees and some vegetation mixed in sure does not hurt the catching of them. And like Flame, I wanted some in my pond when I first built it but learned here! With their large mouth, I did not want them competing for forage with my lmb. But I have to say it again, best eating Panfish here in this part of the country. I just wished they would grow to 9+" here.


Edited by TGW1 (11/11/17 09:10 AM)
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

Tracy

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#482487 - 11/11/17 09:30 AM Re: Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond [Re: Flame]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 259
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
In my experience they will not be major competitors for LMB forage. The Warmouth abundance too low if LMB present. Also Warmouth will target forage at size that appears to be prior to typical bottleneck for forage fish feeding into LMB.

A few years back I sat up a quarry where Warmouth were to be the top predator. Prey were RES, Pumpkinseed, Lake Chubsuckers, Red-fish Shiner, and Brook Silversides. Worked for three years until a yahoo messed it up. Still an interesting population although Green Sunfish and Bluegill are displacing others to varying degrees. Green Sunfish rule open water like a LMB while Warmouth dominate structure. For a while some of the Warmouth appeared to be approaching the state record.

Something interesting in Warmouth social behavior. I do not think they should be lumped in with other panfish type sunfish. To me they are somehow intermediate between Lepomis spp. and the black basses Micropterus spp. That is partly because of hybridizing experiments, not just looks and behavior.
_________________________
Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri

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#482517 - 11/11/17 06:25 PM Re: Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond [Re: Jim Wetzel]
John Fitzgerald Offline


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 1558
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
Originally Posted By: Jim Wetzel

A few years back I sat up a quarry where Warmouth were to be the top predator. Prey were RES, Pumpkinseed, Lake Chubsuckers, Red-fish Shiner, and Brook Silversides. Worked for three years until a yahoo messed it up.


Jim, what was done to mess it up? Did someone bucket stock some LMB?
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#482519 - 11/11/17 06:26 PM Re: Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond [Re: Flame]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5310
Loc: Boone County Illinois
The discussion so far has been all Warmouth. The original question included Rock Bass so I figure this question is fair game without hijacking. What about Rock Bass in a pond? Good idea?


Edited by Bill D. (11/11/17 06:26 PM)
Edit Reason: Typo
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#482552 - 11/12/17 07:24 AM Re: Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond [Re: Flame]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2003
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
Bill when I mentioned Rockbass, they are one in the same or at least they are the same to me. I never knew they were different fish. just depends on what part of the country I'm fishing as to what they are called. In Okla when I was growing up we called them rock bass but in this area I hear them called Goggle eye. Jim, what about the spawning. How many times will they spawn in a year? Once like res or multi like bg? And since you mentioned cohabitation with lmb, any way they might assist in keeping ponds from becoming lmb heavy in a pond where they coexist? I mean in a normal lmb-bg-res pond, what ever that is?
w
Anyone have comparison photos of Warmouth over Goggle eye or Rockbass they can post up here?


Edited by TGW1 (11/12/17 07:33 AM)
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

Tracy

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#482556 - 11/12/17 08:56 AM Re: Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond [Re: TGW1]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 259
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
Originally Posted By: TGW1
Bill when I mentioned Rockbass, they are one in the same or at least they are the same to me. I never knew they were different fish. just depends on what part of the country I'm fishing as to what they are called. In Okla when I was growing up we called them rock bass but in this area I hear them called Goggle eye. Jim, what about the spawning. How many times will they spawn in a year? Once like res or multi like bg? And since you mentioned cohabitation with lmb, any way they might assist in keeping ponds from becoming lmb heavy in a pond where they coexist? I mean in a normal lmb-bg-res pond, what ever that is?
w
Anyone have comparison photos of Warmouth over Goggle eye or Rockbass they can post up here?


Four species go under the names rockbass and goggle-eye. Where I am at there are four and in many locations you can take two of those species from a given stream. I have to get more particular using the names Warmouth, Rockbass, Shadow Bass and Ozark Bass. Warmouth is the most widespread and is also not of the same grouping as the other three plus the Roanoke Bass on the east coast are all much more closely related.

Warmouth breeding frequency not as high as NBG but they still go at it into July. They are the easiest of all sunfishes for me to tank spawn and breed out of season. Larvae are a bit small and thus tough to raise during first few days after they do onto feed / forage. The Warmouth will not be effective restricting LMB abundance, at least in the types of ponds I have played with. The Warmouth seem to regulate themselves when forced to use cover like in the presence of LMB.
_________________________
Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri

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#482558 - 11/12/17 09:09 AM Re: Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond [Re: Flame]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2003
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
Thanks Jim, so I'm guessing it might be ok to have some in a lmb pond? If they self regulate and if lmb will keep them in check, then maybe it would not be so bad to have them? I once cooked up some bg side by side, a half dozen of each, with some Warmouth or Goggle eye to show the different taste to my wife. We both agreed on liking the taste of the Wm over the bg. I would still like to see a comparison picture of these fish and may have to do so on my own. But I was hoping others would do the work for me lol Maybe I am not sure of which fish I have been eating smile


Edited by TGW1 (11/12/17 09:11 AM)
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

Tracy

Top
#482560 - 11/12/17 10:09 AM Re: Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond [Re: Flame]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 18953
Loc: Miss.
WM are an interesting niche fish. If you can keep some alive in a LMB/BG pond they will be a fun addition.


Warmouth , Lepomis gulosus
http://www.web1.cnre.vt.edu/efish/families/warmouth.html
Reproductive Habits:
Mature at age 1 or 2
Spawning occurs mid-spring through summer
Males build nests in cover
Fecundity is 4,500-63,200 eggs per female per year


Rock Bass , Ambloplites rupestris
http://www.web1.cnre.vt.edu/efish/families/rockbass.html

Reproductive Habits:
Mature in 3 years
Spawning occurs April to early June in water that is 15.6-26C
Males fan out circular nests in shallows on coarse sand to gravel and defend the nest
Fecundity is 2,000-11,000 eggs per female



Roanoke Bass, Ambloplites cavifrons

http://www.web1.cnre.vt.edu/efish/families/roanokebass.html


Reproductive Habits:
Mature in 2 or 3 years
Spawning has not been observed
May spawn in faster water than the rock bass (A. rupestris)
In hatcheries, spawning occurs from mid-May to mid-June at 20-22C
Males construct round nests in clay and gravel near banks
Male guards the nest and watches over the larvae
Fecundity is 3,000-11,500 eggs per female
Hybridizes with rock bass (A. rupestris)





TEMPO OF HYBRID INVIABILITY IN CENTRARCHID FISHES
(TELEOSTEI: CENTRARCHIDAE)
DANIEL I. BOLNICK1, AND THOMAS J. NEAR

The only crosses with total inviability in
both directions are M. salmoides X (Ambloplites rupestrus,
Pomoxis annularis, or Pomoxis nigromaculatus) at 28.94 million
years, while 10 other crosses of that age have some
viability in one or both reciprocal directions .
Centrarchids also retain nonzero viability and heterosis
for much longer than most other taxa.

While relatively closely related Warmouth is a lepomis while Rockbass is Ambloplites rupestrus ( see above) . All Lepomis can (but may not) cross while AR can't cross with LMB or Crappie. Not all crosses will survive to adulthood (some only a few days).

Here is one prior thread
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=445804&page=1







Edited by ewest (11/12/17 10:27 AM)
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#482566 - 11/12/17 01:00 PM Re: Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond [Re: Flame]
sprkplug Offline
Ambassador
Lunker

Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 6894
Loc: Freedom, Indiana
Check the anal fin. WM will usually have 3 rigid spines, RB will have 5 or 6.
_________________________
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.

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#482568 - 11/12/17 01:59 PM Re: Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond [Re: ewest]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 259
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
Originally Posted By: ewest
WM are an interesting niche fish. If you can keep some alive in a LMB/BG pond they will be a fun addition.


Warmouth , Lepomis gulosus
http://www.web1.cnre.vt.edu/efish/families/warmouth.html
Reproductive Habits:
Mature at age 1 or 2
Spawning occurs mid-spring through summer
Males build nests in cover
Fecundity is 4,500-63,200 eggs per female per year


Rock Bass , Ambloplites rupestris
http://www.web1.cnre.vt.edu/efish/families/rockbass.html

Reproductive Habits:
Mature in 3 years
Spawning occurs April to early June in water that is 15.6-26C
Males fan out circular nests in shallows on coarse sand to gravel and defend the nest
Fecundity is 2,000-11,000 eggs per female



Roanoke Bass, Ambloplites cavifrons

http://www.web1.cnre.vt.edu/efish/families/roanokebass.html


Reproductive Habits:
Mature in 2 or 3 years
Spawning has not been observed
May spawn in faster water than the rock bass (A. rupestris)
In hatcheries, spawning occurs from mid-May to mid-June at 20-22C
Males construct round nests in clay and gravel near banks
Male guards the nest and watches over the larvae
Fecundity is 3,000-11,500 eggs per female
Hybridizes with rock bass (A. rupestris)





TEMPO OF HYBRID INVIABILITY IN CENTRARCHID FISHES
(TELEOSTEI: CENTRARCHIDAE)
DANIEL I. BOLNICK1, AND THOMAS J. NEAR

The only crosses with total inviability in
both directions are M. salmoides X (Ambloplites rupestrus,
Pomoxis annularis, or Pomoxis nigromaculatus) at 28.94 million
years, while 10 other crosses of that age have some
viability in one or both reciprocal directions .
Centrarchids also retain nonzero viability and heterosis
for much longer than most other taxa.

While relatively closely related Warmouth is a lepomis while Rockbass is Ambloplites rupestrus ( see above) . All Lepomis can (but may not) cross while AR can't cross with LMB or Crappie. Not all crosses will survive to adulthood (some only a few days).

Here is one prior thread
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=445804&page=1








I predict that eventually the Warmouth will be split out of Lepomis, as well as another known as the Bantam Sunfish. Not all possible hybrids have been evaluated and I have been unable to replicate some of what was claimed. When it comes to viability for a few days, you can replicate that using your spew crossing with several centrarchid species.
_________________________
Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri

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#482569 - 11/12/17 02:16 PM Re: Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond [Re: Flame]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 259
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
Warmouth, coloration can be extremely variable as a function of background, mood, and sex.


Rock Bass


Shadow Bass


Ozark Bass


Hybrid Green x Warmouth listed as Warmouth by source. I have made the and triploid hybrids.


Edited by Jim Wetzel (11/12/17 02:17 PM)
_________________________
Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri

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#482571 - 11/12/17 04:37 PM Re: Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond [Re: Jim Wetzel]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 18953
Loc: Miss.
Originally Posted By: Jim Wetzel




I predict that eventually the Warmouth will be split out of Lepomis, as well as another known as the Bantam Sunfish. Not all possible hybrids have been evaluated and I have been unable to replicate some of what was claimed. When it comes to viability for a few days, you can replicate that using your spew crossing with several centrarchid species.


No doubt changes will occur as we learn more. The problem becomes as we learn to measure/quantify in greater and greater detail (in all fields including genetics) more and more differences will be found. At some point differences (measured amounts) become too remote and similarities are ignored. Who knows where to draw the line.
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#482574 - 11/12/17 05:20 PM Re: Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond [Re: Flame]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 259
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
Splits I am talking about are not at the species level, rather genus. You missed my assertion that some hybrids not reported on. Those, or their absence are very telling.
_________________________
Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri

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#482610 - 11/13/17 09:42 AM Re: Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond [Re: Flame]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 18953
Loc: Miss.
Yes they left no doubt that all possible crosses were not covered. Further that much was left to be learned. They used the available data at the time.
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#482658 - 11/14/17 08:30 AM Re: Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond [Re: Flame]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2003
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
Thanks for posting up the pics. Looks like I've been catching and eating Warmouth, or a warmouth hyb of some sorts on Caddo lake. Not sure which one I ate in my younger days in Okla.
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

Tracy

Top
#482666 - 11/14/17 11:16 AM Re: Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond [Re: Jim Wetzel]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4221
Loc: SE Kansas
Those are some neat pictures of fish I am totally unfamiliar with Jim. Thanks for posting them. Pretty fish.
_________________________
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#482758 - 11/16/17 11:13 AM Re: Are rock bass or warmouth bad to have in your pond [Re: Flame]
Acoursey Offline


Registered: 10/26/17
Posts: 19
Loc: West Lafayette, IN

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