I feel like I've taken a big step in my Padawan Pondmeister journey... thanks to the Pond Jedi's and Gurus so willing to share their experience and knowledge with new guys like me. Phase One of my mini-pond project has reached a milestone! A pond now exists where there was not one before.
After attending Pond Boss VII, I really focused on clarifying my goal before I got started. After careful consideration, I knew that my real focus was to improve the visual aesthetics of my property and provide additional value to the wildlife habitat where I live. I love the idea of having a healthy, balanced ecosystem in the mini-pond that will support a variety of fish, but also encourage other birds and critters to visit and enjoy the land we share. (except perhaps feral pigs... I'm ok with them visiting someone else) Besides, Mike Otto says that "people are healthier, happier, and live longer with a pond on their property." Who am I to argue?!
The area we live in is surrounded by ~11k acres of dense forest, but our place is only ~6 acres. One of the first things I did was look for natural ponds near me as a general indicator of what the geology might be like. I found two that were within a half mile of my place (circled)... East Texas Piney Woods
I originally wanted a pond when we built our home a couple years ago, but didn't want to prematurely remove some really large hardwoods in the yard area. As the seasons rolled on after moving in, it turned out that several of those trees (particularly a couple of very large oaks and large black gum) succumbed to the stress of the construction process. I'm told that moving a lot of dirt around with heavy equipment over the root structures will often take it's toll on older trees. That seemed to be the case here and I ended up having them removed as they were dying. This opened up a small area that sparked the re-ignition of my pond dream. This photo shows several spots off the back of the house where I had giant hardwood stumps ground down after their unfortunate "early retirement".
The next crossroads in the planning flow-chart was the field test. I arranged to have a backhoe come out and poke an 8-or-so foot test hole in the area the pond would roughly be to see what sort of soil existed. I used the tried and true Mike Otto method from "Just Add Water" (great book that I highly recommend everyone buy, read, and give out as stocking stuffers). After 18 to 20 inches of sandy loam top-soil, we hit the good stuff.
Man, was I excited when the big toys showed up! (maybe not big by some standards, but a darn-sight bigger than my Cub Cadet :)) Big Toys have arrived!
Deciding at the last minute to go ahead and take out three small hardwoods allowed me to squeeze a little more surface area out of the mini-pond and achieve a depth of 7 feet comfortably. There were some large underground root systems from my big oaks that needed to be yanked out and we wreaked some major havoc on the irrigation system and septic gray water distribution. Dozers don't much care about anything in the dirt they move... they just know how to move dirt and a lot of it! Laying out the mini-pond area.
First step was scraping off the top soil to reuse after the levee was in place. It is amazing how easy even a small dozer pushes the earth around!
After the topsoil was out of the way, the key channels were cut along the levee sides of the pond. I never considered this would be required for such a small endeavor, but it was explained to me that designing the pond for all the goes-ins to not goes-outs requires careful levee/dam creation and that jives with everything I'm learning here, so watching the stuff I read in Mike's book come to life was a cool process.
After the levee was finished, the basic shape was crafted and compaction was focused on:
It took a couple of days to get the pond bowled out and everything compacted well. I had a small shelf cut into the inbound side while the equipment was onsite. Finished slopes on banks and finished shelf area
When we built our home, we used Texas Rattlesnake chop limestone that was quarried in central Texas. We ended up with a bit left over, so I moved about a ton of it into the pond and made stacks along the edges for small fish shelter.
It is full stone rather than cut, so I was able to use some larger chunks for a little outline on the shelf... nothing special there, just hoping the water would be clear enough to see it once done.
I used the 2 to 3 ton per acre number to extrapolate 400 pounds of pulverized aglime for application before I started filling. I live in Grimes county and the eastern piney woods soil is typically acidic. I figure the alkalinity offset would help kick start the plankton growth. I'll get a proper water sample after things have time to settle in...
The Vertex PondLyfe 2 system with the paddles at the 7 foot mark. I wanted to place these before I started filling.
Here is my pea gravel shelf. I may put some potted aquatic plants on it, but it's mainly there for fish. I don't know if it's a good idea or not, but hey... pea gravel is cheap.
The pond took 3 full days to fill with my well. This is about 2 days in and the water I'm pulling from 400 feet down is pretty darn clear. It would be a dream come true to keep anywhere remotely close to this sort of clarity, but I'm not getting my hopes up. Based on best case/worst case flow rate, this little mini-pond is somewhere between 100k and 120k gallons I suspect.
Here is an over-lay of the pond area applied to the original area shot during planning... and another drone shot from farther off to give a basic sense of scale to the yard/pond ratio.
I'm sure this will come together a lot more once I get some plant life and grasses growing around the perimeter.
Here is the pond full as viewed from a rocking chair on my porch.
...and another view from the levee toward the house.
Here is a little video of a test run on the diffusers (to see if I needed to balance the manafold valves) and an underwater peek at the gravel for the fish to tinker with...
Last but not least... if anyone is interested... I had a trail cam snapping a photo every now and again to mash together into a little time-lapse of the dig and fill. I feel like I haven't even scratched the scratch yet when it comes to learning about this stuff, but now I have a classroom in the backyard to do homework in along the way. I am still trying to get my head around steps between now and stocking with some fish... what to do/not do... how long to wait... etc. I think a longer term vision for me to add to the aesthetic would be to stack some stone along the back levee and install some sort of sump pump that would draw from the bottom and push water over different flat ledges to provide not only additional movement/oxygen, but a place for birds and bees to wash their knees. Since I don't know what all that will entail of if it's even feasible yet, I'm having a 220v circuit dropped out behind the levee with a small breaker panel for future expansion while it otherwise serves up a 110v GFCI to the Vertex system in the meantime.
Thanks for sharing this process and journey with me. I think it has really been made possible and come together largely in part from Pond Boss magazine, the conference, wisdom from Bob, Mike, and all the speakers there, the Pond Boss forum and all the awesome folks that drop nuggets there... I'm grateful. I appreciate y'all... my new friends and the ones I've yet to meet... for helping me get this 'ole can down the road.
Any advice, thoughts, comments, etc on any of what I've already done, could'a/should'a done different/better, or what I can improve are WELCOMED! ...and I'd certainly like to use this thread to keep y'all updated on how things continue... especially after I get into the fish stocking stage of this journey.
Thanks again! I look forward to hearing from y'all! Cheers! Clayton
96.85840735 percent clayton... the rest is just pi.
It holds water very well from what I can see thusfar...
It's worth mentioning that the dozer operator spent a long time compacting the clay. There may have not been a sheepsfoot roller in this relatively small space, but the dozer is heavy and the tracks work well as a substitute. This is especially true if the clay is of high enough quality for holding water.
The soil chapter of Mike Otto's book talks about using multiple passes with a dozer for soil compaction.
/c
Originally Posted By: John Fitzgerald
Does it hold water well, since it was built using only dozer and backhoe, and not compacted with a roller?
96.85840735 percent clayton... the rest is just pi.
Many on this thread would differ (from their experience) with your claim that a dozer is heavy and that tracks "work well as a substitute."
The fact that you can see the tracks in your time lapse footage did not even make a mark in your grass is proof that if he drove his tracks over your boot you would not suffer an injury.
The pond is brand new so you don't have an idea yet on how it holds water. The banks have to saturate with water so there is some wicking usually. But you do seem to have some clay there based on your pictures that should help despite the absence of the compaction step in your construction.
I'm curious about the diffusers. For that size pond do they not usually have a diffuser setup where the 2 diffusers are mounted on a single base? Did you modify that set up for 2 separate diffusers on 2 separate lines? What was the rationale for the extra length of weighted hose? Is there a 3rd weighted hose in the fore ground of that picture? What is that hose for?
I love your pictures and your water clarity and view of the diffusers in action is incredible!
You make really great points - especially the one about the newness of my pond (and it's true, I lack of knowledge/experience). The dozer compaction statement was just regurgitation out of Mr. Otto's book... and from the dirt guy that did my pond (and his decades of experience I don't have). There is lots of wicking going on because the clay hasn't reached any sort of stability yet... but I'm fairly certain that once that occurs, it will hold. The type of clay that starts a foot and half down is consistent to as deep as we tested (~11') and doesn't seem to be permeable.
( It is indeed a small dozer (15k lbs), but probably would still hurt my foot. )
The Vertex PondLyfe system is the smallest they make... comes in 4 models that are identical in cfm throughput and pond service capacity, but have different paddle configurations. The PondLyfe 1 is 2 diffusers on a single base. The PondLyfe 2, seen here, is 1 diffuser per base spread over 2 bases. They both push the same amount of air (compressor/base station is identical). The truth is, the local pond and lake management company I purchased the system from (authorized vendor) happened to have a "2" in stock and there was a 10 day lead time to order a "1". It made little difference to me and I actually like the idea of spreading the two paddles a few feet apart. No other reason for the configuration.
The extra length of hose is not really "extra". The compressor will permanently sit on the back side of the levee, so another 6 feet or so of hose was needed to reach that spot. The electrician is putting in a circuit and subpanel for future expansion there and I just was moving everything well out of the way so no nicks and scratches occur. Once I move the unit into place, there won't be much slack in the hose. (other than that, the manufacturer's installation guidance in the owners manual calls for 4' of extra tubing to be left on shore)
The misl hose you see to the front/right of the pond is the hose I'm filling the pond with from an extra tap off the well pump manifold. I ran it into the bottom of the pond rather than fill from the edge... no particular reason. It's temporary. The pond "fill" to top off during high evaporation months will be a 1" line on the back of the levee with a temp hose I can run over the surface when needed. I didn't put any penetrations into the pond for permanent fill lines.
My guess is the water clarity won't last. I wish it would, but it's just really, really clean (and very hard) ground water from the well.
Thanks for the comment... I appreciate the food for thought because I'm learning as I go.
Cheers! /clayton
Originally Posted By: canyoncreek
Many on this thread would differ (from their experience) with your claim that a dozer is heavy and that tracks "work well as a substitute."
The fact that you can see the tracks in your time lapse footage did not even make a mark in your grass is proof that if he drove his tracks over your boot you would not suffer an injury.
The pond is brand new so you don't have an idea yet on how it holds water. The banks have to saturate with water so there is some wicking usually. But you do seem to have some clay there based on your pictures that should help despite the absence of the compaction step in your construction.
I'm curious about the diffusers. For that size pond do they not usually have a diffuser setup where the 2 diffusers are mounted on a single base? Did you modify that set up for 2 separate diffusers on 2 separate lines? What was the rationale for the extra length of weighted hose? Is there a 3rd weighted hose in the fore ground of that picture? What is that hose for?
I love your pictures and your water clarity and view of the diffusers in action is incredible!
96.85840735 percent clayton... the rest is just pi.
Lots of heavy equipment operators can speak more to this than I. I found a quick summary of PSI from tracked vehicles online. This is from a Hitachi Ex200, 20 ton excavator. The weight is probably twice your dozer but tracks are also larger. You can plug the numbers in from your dozer. In this example despite 20 ton weight the force on your boot is only 7 psi. It would be interesting to substitute the track area vs weight of your dozer. But either way, the PSI from a dozer tread has come up in other threads and the force generally per square foot is not much different than rolling it with a lawn tractor pulling a drum filled with concrete.
Here is the example I found:
Ground Pressure
Ground pressure is the pressure exerted on the ground by the tires or tracks of a motorized vehicle, and is one measure of its potential mobility,[1] especially over soft ground. Ground pressure is measured in pascals (Pa) which corresponds to the EES unit of pounds per square inch (psi). Average ground pressure can be calculated using the standard formula for average pressure: P = F/A.[2] In an idealized case, i.e. a static, uniform net force normal to level ground at Earth sea level, this is simply the object’s weight divided by contact area. The ground pressure of motorized vehicles is often compared to the ground pressure of a human foot, which can be 60 – 80 kPa while walking or as much as 13 MPa for a person in spike heels.[3]
Increasing the size of the contact area on the ground (the footprint) in relation to the weight decreases the ground pressure. Ground pressure of 14 Pa (2 psi) or less is recommended for fragile ecosystems like marshes.[4] Decreasing the ground pressure increases the flotation, allowing easier passage of the body over soft terrain. This is often observed in activities like snowshoeing.
Example: Average ground contact for a Hitachi EX 200 (20 ton)
Calculate average ground contact area (footprint): A = length x width A = 132.1″ x 23.6″ =3115.2 x 2 for two tracks = 6230.4
Calculate average ground contact pressure: P = load / area P = 43651.5 lbs divided over the area 6230.4″ = 7 lbs per square inch P = 7 psi
Clayton, assure that you have oxygenation prior to stocking and kind of fish. Well water, unless run over some baffles to break it up, is not oxygenated.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
For comparison, a 100# woman in high heels applies about 1500 psi!
Is that when she rocks back on only one heel, or both? What about when she stands flat footed? C'mon man, this is PondBoss after all, we obsess over the details!!
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
Clayton, The pond seems to have come out well; thanks for the pictures.
As for compaction, my pond in Ms. was compacted with a bulldozer and it holds water well. My clay was pretty good as yours seems to be. I had done alot of research about pond building but one thing I hadn't seen was that best compaction was by sheeps foot roller. Even if I had, I may have "yielded" to the 30 yrs of pond building experience the builder had??
I didn't see a primary overflow; is it going to be a spillway?
Thanks, David. I plan on giving it a few weeks of aeration and sunlight before testing the water and making a call about stocking. I am in no rush on that... thank you for the reminder!
/clayton
Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
Clayton, assure that you have oxygenation prior to stocking and kind of fish. Well water, unless run over some baffles to break it up, is not oxygenated.
96.85840735 percent clayton... the rest is just pi.
For comparison, a 100# woman in high heels applies about 1500 psi!
Is that when she rocks back on only one heel, or both? What about when she stands flat footed? C'mon man, this is PondBoss after all, we obsess over the details!!
96.85840735 percent clayton... the rest is just pi.
I am fairly certain that if my soil was any different (inferior), a roller would have been used.
Yes, there is a designed spillway area on the natural downflow side of the yard elevation. We plan on dovetailing that spillway area into a "dry creek bed" visual (buy functional) aesthetic that will help channel any overflow into the actual creekbed running perpendicular to that flow through our yard where the bridge is in the overhead photo to the left/north of the pond.
Thanks, Dan.
/c
Originally Posted By: djstauder
Clayton, The pond seems to have come out well; thanks for the pictures.
As for compaction, my pond in Ms. was compacted with a bulldozer and it holds water well. My clay was pretty good as yours seems to be. I had done alot of research about pond building but one thing I hadn't seen was that best compaction was by sheeps foot roller. Even if I had, I may have "yielded" to the 30 yrs of pond building experience the builder had??
I didn't see a primary overflow; is it going to be a spillway?
dan
96.85840735 percent clayton... the rest is just pi.
When the water will support some stocking, I'm planning on starting out with some sunfish and minnows... probably what is available through my local pond management resource (CNBG/BG, RES, FHM). I am more interested in getting a stable ecosystem working that quantity of fish, so I don't want to overdo it. I am still scratching my head on aquatic plants. Of course, I can't do much about what the birds bring in...
I'm open to thoughts and suggestions on all that...
/clayton
Originally Posted By: RER
pretty cool, what you going to put in it fish wise?
96.85840735 percent clayton... the rest is just pi.
Thanks, man... it's a work in progress. I'm literally learning as I go with the pond. I am trying to stay ahead of questions and challenges that are popping up, but sometimes you just have to get started and do it as part of the process.
Appreciate the kind words. | Cheers, Clayton
Originally Posted By: Snakebite
Looks mighty good man. Glad you came away with lots of ideas. Your place looks great.
96.85840735 percent clayton... the rest is just pi.
This post is not meant to diminish your work in any way, but the same thing happened to me. My first pond was a renovation, and only compacted with a dozer. It still leaks after two years. The second pond was compacted with a dozer, then a heavy backhoe with loaded front bucket. It leaks some, but less than half as much as the first pond. Both ponds are in all clay. After a couple of months of soaking the all clay banks, wet spots started appearing below the ponds after they had been at full pool for a few days.
As to fish, in a pond that small, I would avoid sunfish, and stock fathead minnows and maybe 15 channel catfish. I have a third pond that is about 2000 square feet, four feet deep, and holds only fathead minnows. Yours appears to be about 2000 square feet and maybe six feet deep.
For comparison, a 100# woman in high heels applies about 1500 psi!
Is that when she rocks back on only one heel, or both? What about when she stands flat footed? C'mon man, this is PondBoss after all, we obsess over the details!!
Example: 125 pound person wearing 1/4 inch square spike heels. Rocking back on both heels = 1,000 PSI per heel. Standing on one heel = 2,000 PSI. Hundreds of people walking back and forth in spike heels = one sheepsfoot roller. LOL
That's a bummer you had to deal with that... All I can do is hope that isn't the case here. I've heard not all clay is created equal. We'll see how things shake out over the next week or two. I have a friend with a pond only slightly larger than mine that lives a mile from me and it's held water without issue for 9 years now (also only compacted with dozer). They do have evaporation to deal with in July/August, but it gets up around 100 degrees here consistently in the summer.
Is you recommendation to avoid sunfish based on their reproduction rate? I was kinda looking forward to letting my little nieces fish those... just curious.
Thanks, John! /clayton
Originally Posted By: John Fitzgerald
This post is not meant to diminish your work in any way, but the same thing happened to me. My first pond was a renovation, and only compacted with a dozer. It still leaks after two years. The second pond was compacted with a dozer, then a heavy backhoe with loaded front bucket. It leaks some, but less than half as much as the first pond. Both ponds are in all clay. After a couple of months of soaking the all clay banks, wet spots started appearing below the ponds after they had been at full pool for a few days.
As to fish, in a pond that small, I would avoid sunfish, and stock fathead minnows and maybe 15 channel catfish. I have a third pond that is about 2000 square feet, four feet deep, and holds only fathead minnows. Yours appears to be about 2000 square feet and maybe six feet deep.
96.85840735 percent clayton... the rest is just pi.
Is you recommendation to avoid sunfish based on their reproduction rate? I was kinda looking forward to letting my little nieces fish those... just curious.
Thanks, John! /clayton
Yes, sunfish will overpopulate in a small pond in the absence of predators. Best to have only a few channel cats and fathead minnows. You might be able to obtain a few albino channel cats for effect. I was able to get a few in 2015-16. The biggest one is about seven pounds now.
Is you recommendation to avoid sunfish based on their reproduction rate? I was kinda looking forward to letting my little nieces fish those...
Clayton,
If you really want SF, one option might be to stock Hybrid Bluegill (HBG) They have limited reproduction, grow fast, fight hard and are easy to catch. A couple of Hybrid Stripe Bass (HSB) might help control the limited HBG reproduction and provide a nice bonus catch. Both HBG and HSB readily take pellets if you decide you want to feed fish.
I agree that CC would probably work as well but some folks avoid them as they can tend to stir up the bottom and cloud or muddy the water.
Thanks for the tips... I heard something at Pond Boss VII about catfish being cavity spawners and they would hollow out parts of the pond bank to make a hole. Was that only a particular type? Was I hallucinating?
My friend's 9-yr old mini-pond I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread was stocked with catfish early on and they have more or less taken over. They are offering up opportunity to help cull the numbers on rod and reel. I suppose I'm looking for some happy medium between a variety of fish that can reach some low-maintenance stability in the little ecosystem. If I start with feeder fish species and introduce predator species later, I'm buying into a different (not necessarily better or worse) management path than if I avoid introducing predator species intentionally, no? I mean, you can't help what the birds put in there... another local friend with a small pond near me didn't stock any fish at all and now has a yellow bass population his daughter fishes... courtesy of mother nature.
I'll poke around at what local sourcing options I have for hybrid bluegill.
Thanks, Clayton
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Originally Posted By: KapHn8d
Is you recommendation to avoid sunfish based on their reproduction rate? I was kinda looking forward to letting my little nieces fish those...
Clayton,
If you really want SF, one option might be to stock Hybrid Bluegill (HBG) They have limited reproduction, grow fast, fight hard and are easy to catch. A couple of Hybrid Stripe Bass (HSB) might help control the limited HBG reproduction and provide a nice bonus catch. Both HBG and HSB readily take pellets if you decide you want to feed fish.
I agree that CC would probably work as well but some folks avoid them as they can tend to stir up the bottom and cloud or muddy the water.
96.85840735 percent clayton... the rest is just pi.
i would stock with fathead minnows as soon as water conditions allow. then i would find someone with a bluegill heavy pond and try to get 100 percent males. i wish you were closer to me. i would love to cull some of my bluegill. you might grow a record fish in that little pond. if you had a 150 or so in there, it could still be fun for the youngster to fish in.
about compaction- my first pond was built with an excavator and dozer only. it never leaked a drop. it had really good clay. my second pond was built with large pans, off road dump trucks, etc and it leaks. i would feel sure that with that size pond it could be treated with soil floc and you would be fine. it really helped my leak. i bet you will be fine.. it looks great!!!
Awe, man... I'd take ya up on that... lol. I don't know the first thing about sexing bluegills though...
I have a lake management company locally that will source FHM for me, but I was thinking about driving up to http://baitbarnfisheries.com in Bryan and picking some up myself. Anyone on here have experience with that place?
It's raining like a dog here tonight and the spillway is working as designed. Prior to the rain start, I hadn't lost a bit of water since I stopped filling, but noticed the wicking action of the clay at the waters edge. Time will tell...
/c
Originally Posted By: scott69
i would stock with fathead minnows as soon as water conditions allow. then i would find someone with a bluegill heavy pond and try to get 100 percent males. i wish you were closer to me. i would love to cull some of my bluegill. you might grow a record fish in that little pond. if you had a 150 or so in there, it could still be fun for the youngster to fish in.
about compaction- my first pond was built with an excavator and dozer only. it never leaked a drop. it had really good clay. my second pond was built with large pans, off road dump trucks, etc and it leaks. i would feel sure that with that size pond it could be treated with soil floc and you would be fine. it really helped my leak. i bet you will be fine.. it looks great!!!
96.85840735 percent clayton... the rest is just pi.
Lots of heavy equipment operators can speak more to this than I. I found a quick summary of PSI from tracked vehicles online. This is from a Hitachi Ex200, 20 ton excavator. The weight is probably twice your dozer but tracks are also larger. You can plug the numbers in from your dozer. In this example despite 20 ton weight the force on your boot is only 7 psi. It would be interesting to substitute the track area vs weight of your dozer. But either way, the PSI from a dozer tread has come up in other threads and the force generally per square foot is not much different than rolling it with a lawn tractor pulling a drum filled with concrete.
Here is the example I found:
Ground Pressure
Ground pressure is the pressure exerted on the ground by the tires or tracks of a motorized vehicle, and is one measure of its potential mobility,[1] especially over soft ground. Ground pressure is measured in pascals (Pa) which corresponds to the EES unit of pounds per square inch (psi). Average ground pressure can be calculated using the standard formula for average pressure: P = F/A.[2] In an idealized case, i.e. a static, uniform net force normal to level ground at Earth sea level, this is simply the object’s weight divided by contact area. The ground pressure of motorized vehicles is often compared to the ground pressure of a human foot, which can be 60 – 80 kPa while walking or as much as 13 MPa for a person in spike heels.[3]
Increasing the size of the contact area on the ground (the footprint) in relation to the weight decreases the ground pressure. Ground pressure of 14 Pa (2 psi) or less is recommended for fragile ecosystems like marshes.[4] Decreasing the ground pressure increases the flotation, allowing easier passage of the body over soft terrain. This is often observed in activities like snowshoeing.
Example: Average ground contact for a Hitachi EX 200 (20 ton)
Calculate average ground contact area (footprint): A = length x width A = 132.1″ x 23.6″ =3115.2 x 2 for two tracks = 6230.4
Calculate average ground contact pressure: P = load / area P = 43651.5 lbs divided over the area 6230.4″ = 7 lbs per square inch P = 7 psi
There are work around's.
Now take the square inches that comprise the grousers only on the tracks. That is going to be about 1/32 the surface area of the entire track. So 32 times more psi compaction capability (bulldozer type grousers, not excavator). Problem is you have to go over the area 32 times to get it. You can greatly increase the compaction capability of a dozer simply by making multiple trips preferably at varying angles. The other caveat is it only compacts to about 2"-3" deep so the lifts have to be shallower. I like to cris-cross. Is it efficient? no. If you have a large area to do, finding a rubber tired scraper or sheepsfoot would be a much better idea. But it is a work around, particularly on a small job. When they figure the compaction pressure of a sheepsfoot they do not figure the drum area. They figure the feet area. It takes multiple passes even with a sheepsfoot to realize its full compaction capability. By using the grouser area of a track tractor the compaction factor is greatly increased. But it takes many passes to realize it.
Another work around with a dozer on a dam, especially a small rather narrow dam, is to compact it with the dozer while going over center. If you only have the center part of the tracks touching, say half, you have doubled the compaction force. Again it is a work around. Is it efficient? No. But it is another method that an experienced operator can do to "make do".
About the only BOW's I have seen a sheepsfoot used in this area is on government jobs. Rubber tire scrapers are used more often but mostly on larger jobs. I would hazard to say thousands of ponds in my area have been built with nothing with a dozer and by and large nearly all hold water. I know of one that did not but my guess is that the area it is in was undermined (old shallow coal mine shafts).
If I put new terraces in a field and get a low spot, I have a pond. It holds water till it evaporates.
I know this forum obsesses over sheepsfoot rollers, but not all areas of the country or soil types require their use. Are they a good idea on any project? Sure. And on a significant size project would be very good insurance. But on a pond less than one acre? I would say they almost are never used in my neck of the woods. I never used one on the three new ponds I have built on my property (did us a rubber tire scraper on the dam and core, but nothing on the bowl). But we have clay pan soils with the subsoil measuring water permeability in very low hundredths of an inch per hour so have excellent material to work with. That is natural, uncompacted subsoil.
So I would not have him filling it back in and starting over just because it was only compacted with a dozer. A good operator on a small project can do quite a bit with a dozer as far as compaction. Sheepsfoot rollers are just not easily rented in all areas. Especially for small jobs. They would be hard to come by here. There are work arounds if you have especially good material to work with. If you have marginal material........... better do it right.
Edit: I added this thread to the list I keep of specialty ponds Here
The NRCS guy here told me that as far as he knows no one except highway contractors have sheepsfoot rollers in this area. None for hire or for rent.
On my first pond, the grouser bars on the dozer were nearly worn out. On the second pond, same dozer, new grousers. Second pond leaks much less, but we also compacted the last layer, even the bowl, with a large loaded Case backhoe after the dozer finished.
You can get a lot of compaction with the front tires of a front end loader tractor (either farm tractor or TLB) with the bucket fully loaded with dirt and run the front tires back and forth over the area. This is the way I compacted around my overflow pipes in all my ponds. This is another work around, but like the others I mentioned is not efficient use of time, labor or machinery if a large area needs to be compacted.
I use the loaded front tires to compact around pipes and narrow areas that need to be compacted as I can steer the tractor right into the area that needs it. You have to hand compact under the pipe, but once you get the area right underneath the pipe, a person can run the tractor tires right along the pipe, add clay, repeat till there is enough dirt over the pipe to not collapse it and compact over the top.
Edit: as a side note, a friend and I "borrowed" a county sheepsfoot roller once on the weekend when they were not around. This has been a life time ago, back when I was in high school ( a LONG time ago). I was helping with a tractor pull (back when a tractor pull consisted of a sheet of steel as a sled that people jumped on as the tractor was moving down the track. The people sat in folding chairs along the track and were the ballast added as the tractor and sled moved along - definitely not OSHA approved). We took my tractor and swiped the sheepsfoot, filled it with water, compacted the track, drained it and returned it to the road ditch where we got it.
Clayton, I don't recall that presentation that said catfish would burrow in dam. I've read at least a dozen times that catfish won't spawn unless you add artificial cavities to your pond which "implies" they won't dig burrows while not outright stating it.
I believe you are correct... I must have misunderstood what I thought I heard. Regarding channel catfish, the Texas A&M AgriLife Extension service says, "They do not naturally spawn in ponds, so structures, such a milk crates, or buckets may be added to the pond bottom to encourage spawning."
Thanks! Clayton
Originally Posted By: djstauder
Clayton, I don't recall that presentation that said catfish would burrow in dam. I've read at least a dozen times that catfish won't spawn unless you add artificial cavities to your pond which "implies" they won't dig burrows while not outright stating it.
96.85840735 percent clayton... the rest is just pi.
Thanks, Zep... ironically, most all those trees are pine trees. The yellowish-green color is from the sunset hitting the tops of the pines tall enough to catch it. It was a fortunate accident to get the contrast. We had our first big rain last night since the water went into the pond and it's definitely looking less like a pool and more like a pond this morning. It will be interesting to see how quickly (or not) the clay settles out after this rain. Thanks for the comment! I appreciate it. This is a fun process for me.
Cheers! Clayton
Originally Posted By: Zep
KapHn8d....looks like a great property, a great project, and great pictures.
Love the pine trees and colors of the other trees.
You are blessed.
Thanks for sharing your story.
I am particularly found of this picture...wow!
Last edited by KapHn8d; 11/01/1709:19 AM. Reason: added photo
96.85840735 percent clayton... the rest is just pi.
I just wanted to post a quick update. I had a higher capacity circuit trenched out to behind the levee of the pond for future project options (rock feature/waterfall/etc), but mostly to fulfill the immediate need to power the Vertex unit I installed. The pond has been full without any noticeable level reduction over the last 7 days (checking it daily against a marker location at spillway). I stocked FHM/RR, BG/CNBG, and a few RES this afternoon. The winter rye I spread around the banks is starting to come in, but I'll probably end up sodding that area to provide a little more stability over the clay for walking around the banks.
It ain't much, but I'm happy to have fish now.
Cheers! Clayton
96.85840735 percent clayton... the rest is just pi.
your diffuser boils are great. It makes me want to take my two diffusers which are mounted at a fixed distance on one base and separate them into 2 locations for better effect... How deep are they in the video above?
Quick update on the mini-pond. Running the aeration 24/7 has seemingly really helped the clarity improve after the last big rain. The water level is holding very well and the minnows and sunfish I stocked are settling in nicely.
It's a great place to have coffee in the morning!
/clayton
96.85840735 percent clayton... the rest is just pi.
My browser (IE) here at work shows the youtube link in the post above at 3:30pm as an error message. it says over the embedded video, 'flash embedded videos are no longer supported, but you can still watch this video on youtube.'
Is this specific to this forum software that the link to embed youtube is no longer supported? or is this due to my browser or maybe the custom security on our browser here at the work network?
Fishing is not the goal, but I am curious is you comment is based on pond size or running out of smaller fish? I'm completely ignorant when it comes to "managing" fish population and growth.
I hand feed in the mornings just after dawn over coffee and again at dusk over bourbon... you know, the way nature intended it. I live a short drive from a fishery, so restocking minnows is not more drive than going to get a burger. I am not really focused on growing giant fish in a tiny, tiny pond, but I do want to learn for when I have a larger acreage pond. My wife and I are opportunistically looking for a couple hundred acres further from any major city to use as recreational property. At least one larger pond or a great site to build one is one of my criteria, so this knowledge would come in handy eventually.
Thanks! Clayton
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Thanks Dragon! I think the pond will be full of stunted SF in not too long. Maybe ok if fishing is not the goal.
Last edited by KapHn8d; 11/15/1709:53 AM.
96.85840735 percent clayton... the rest is just pi.
You could put in a single 9" LMB at some later point, maybe next spring, to help keep the sunfish numbers down.
With only one you would not have to worry about recruitment and getting too many LMB. A single LMB might not totally control the BG, but it sure would make a good dent in them in that size pond. Plus you could name it as it soon would grow to a large size and look like Moby Dick in among the other fish.
Edit: for some of the newer members, they may not have noticed one of our very own PBF members featured in that video known to us as gar king but on YouTube is known as the Fish Whisperer.
Haha! That McNugget video was hilarious. I like the idea of adding a LMB later... just figured any more than one would be a sure way to vacuum everything else out.
I also really like the albino CC idea... and have actually looked for where to get a couple, but have not been successful. Apparently, they are opportunistically snatched up as soon as they show up at fisheries. I asked the guy I bought my SF and minnows from and he acted like they rarely saw them...
I'll keep lookin'
/c
96.85840735 percent clayton... the rest is just pi.
There is a mostly-dry creek that runs through my property. I say mostly dry because there are parts of it with pools that hold water for months without evaporating out, but the creek only runs after regional rainfall. I have a bridge in my yard to cross the creekbed and there is a pool area downstream of the bridge that holds water until it evaporates out. I noticed some tadpoles in that pool and took a net down to see what all I'd scoop out. Turns out, there were a decent number of young crawfish in the pool. I probably scooped a dozen or more in the 5 minutes or so I was there... which I tossed in my little mini-pond.
I looked for some data on county records where I live (Grimes county) and it seems the recorded species in Grimes are: Cambarus diogenes (a.k.a. Devil Crawfish), Procambarus clarkii (a.k.a. Louisiana Swamp Crawfish or Red Swamp Crawfish), and Fallicambarus houstonensis (a.k.a. Houston Burrowing Crayfish).
The latter seems to not only be IUNC listed, but also ONLY exists in 8 counties in Texas ( Liberty, Brazoria, Fort Bend, Montgomery, San Jacinto, Grimes, Harris, and Walker). This is really interesting to me.
Are any of you savvy enough with crawfish identification to point me toward how I might tell which of the species I stumbled onto today? I probably won't see the ones I put in the pond anytime soon (if ever), but I may be able to grab another few from the temporary pool in the creek tomorrow for a closer look.
Just throwing it out there in case someone may know...
Cheers! /c
ps. still no luck on sourcing a couple albino CC... still looking
96.85840735 percent clayton... the rest is just pi.
Fishing is not the goal, but I am curious is you comment is based on pond size or running out of smaller fish? I'm completely ignorant when it comes to "managing" fish population and growth.
I hand feed in the mornings just after dawn over coffee and again at dusk over bourbon... you know, the way nature intended it. I live a short drive from a fishery, so restocking minnows is not more drive than going to get a burger. I am not really focused on growing giant fish in a tiny, tiny pond, but I do want to learn for when I have a larger acreage pond. My wife and I are opportunistically looking for a couple hundred acres further from any major city to use as recreational property. At least one larger pond or a great site to build one is one of my criteria, so this knowledge would come in handy eventually.
Thanks! Clayton
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Thanks Dragon! I think the pond will be full of stunted SF in not too long. Maybe ok if fishing is not the goal.
Sorry for the late reply Clayton. I just saw your post.
My thought was simply that BG are prolific and produce huge numbers of offspring per season. Without a predator to keep their numbers in check, they can tend to over eat their available forage and stunt. Right or wrong, I think of it in pounds of fish a pond can support. For example, if your pond can support 100lbs then it could be 200 8oz BG or 800 2oz BG. IMO With no predators, the BG population will move towards the stunted 800 or more. Adding food could work for a while to get the fish bigger but the pond only has so much capacity to process waste before the water quality will degrade.
No need to apologize what-so-ever, Bill... I am just trying to learn and I appreciate any little nuggets of wisdom and experience I can get... no timeline or expectation at all.
I get what you are saying. I sort of relate it to my father's high fenced ranch where they support more deer (mostly exotics) than the land can naively support by supplemental feeding (protein, corn, etc). A pond is probably similar in that there is a natural equilibrium that you can push a little with feeding, but it will always be tugging toward the natural balance.
Since growing trophy fish isn't really my goal, I'm ok with however it works out. I have a lot to learn when it comes to how to manage the populations so there is a win-win for the fish and for me.
I appreciate you...
Cheers, Clayton
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Sorry for the late reply Clayton. I just saw your post.
My thought was simply that BG are prolific and produce huge numbers of offspring per season. Without a predator to keep their numbers in check, they can tend to over eat their available forage and stunt. Right or wrong, I think of it in pounds of fish a pond can support. For example, if your pond can support 100lbs then it could be 200 8oz BG or 800 2oz BG. IMO With no predators, the BG population will move towards the stunted 800 or more. Adding food could work for a while to get the fish bigger but the pond only has so much capacity to process waste before the water quality will degrade.
Keep in mind I'm not a pro...just my 1 cent
96.85840735 percent clayton... the rest is just pi.
Random thought this morning, but just wanted to share... I go out with my coffee in the mornings and toss some feed in, sit back and enjoy watching the fish eat and some quiet time next to the pond. I have noticed slowly, as the CNBG have started to grow a little, they are popping the top of the water more violently to eat. The minnows are all still just grazing along the surface like hungry hippos, but these sunfish are hit and run... anyway, it makes me smile. I'm enjoying watching the fish settle in and am really looking forward to next spring/summer temps when they spawn. Ponds are great.
96.85840735 percent clayton... the rest is just pi.
Can you post an updated picture now with everything matured? I have a very limited are to put a pond on my property and am very interested in your set up. Thanks
Can you post an updated picture now with everything matured? I have a very limited are to put a pond on my property and am very interested in your set up. Thanks
Sure. Here is a recent pic coming into fall this year.
96.85840735 percent clayton... the rest is just pi.
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