Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Pond Questions

We have a pond that was filled for the first time in may 2002. Its man made and filled with a well. The pond is very murky, very low visibility. lots of algea suspended in the water, not to much floating. Its about 3/4 acres and has an areater sp. running 24/7. lots of weed beds in the shallows under the water surface. 9ft at the deepest and probably averages 4ft.

We stocked 70 cat fish, 350 blue gill & 2000 minnows on 5-20-02. Then 70 large mouth bass on 8-27-02.
In the late fall we found 25-30 blue gill & 15 cats dead at the shore.
After fishing it in the spring of 2003 and not catching any blue gill or bass we desided something went wrong and there gone???? The only thing we could catch were the catfish???
On 8-18-03 we stocked 350 blue gill, 100 lmb, & 100 cats, all of a little larger size.
We have done overall very little fishing out there but over this last weekend we did alot.
We caught several 1.5 lb cats (they seem easy)
1 small blue gill 3-4 inches and 1 cat 5-6 inches???

Now the Questions, I thought the cats would not reproduce in a small pond yet that little cat would say yes and 2 of the 1.5 lb cats had real fat bellies (eggs?)
I think the lone blue gill would have been spawned too but I would expect that.
Why are we not catching blue gill and bass??? You would think you would have too fight the blue gill off with a stick. Now my son swears he had a lmb on that got off right at the shore, about 2 lbs.
Does this over fertle pond make it harder to catch some of them?? Is it good for the fish??

My hatchery says to add some grass carp. Any suggestions? The pond is to unclear to see anything but the minnows and theres lots of them. Everthing we have caught seems plump and healthy. Are they in there and were overstocked now??
Should I remove some 1.5 lb cats since we catch them readily???

Mike,

What were the sizes of fish that you stocked? Perhaps by stocking your prey and predators at the same time, the bluegill ended up as dinner instead of having a chance to establish a forage base.

Russ

Russ, the initial stocking of cat and blue gill were of the small variety 2-3 inches. the first bass stocking 3 months later were also the small size. In the stocking the next year (2003) As recomended we used 3-4 inch B.G, 3-4 in. bass & 4-6 in. cat. so they would not be eaten by what may or may not be out there.

Update: Went fishing out there last night for 3-4 hours. Not much happening till later when the sun started too set, halled in 4 cats in the 1.5 to 2lb range and 3-4 baby cats, 5-6 inches??????
Went out this morning while still dark with a spot lite. without the glare from the sun you can see lots of stringy looking weeds growing from the bottom every where (thick). I suspect this is another form of algea?? Still couldnt see far down as the pond has algea suspended in the water making it pea soup like.

Any one have any answars too my earlier questions? Thanks

Mike, grass carp are an easy sell for hatcheries but be sure they're right for you. They will eat almost anything before they eat algae, and if you have a lot of stuff growing on the bottom will rip it out and contribute to the murk. They will also come up out of the water, I swear, and pull plants (they really love elephant ears) off the bank.

As to the cloudiness, if it is pea-soup green, perhaps someone here can advise you on fertilization of the pond; I don't understand the process fully, but I have a vague awareness that causing a massive algae bloom can lead to clarification as nutrients are absorbed. One way to reduce algae adn bottom-growing stuff, add some bluing agent if you don't mind the color change (a little goes a long way, though). It alters the light wavelength and reduces growth.

For filamentous algae, which may or may not be the stuff growing off the bottom, chelated copper sulfate products like Cutrine Plus do a great job of pushing it back. You can easily tell by grabbing some if it is algae or plants; grass carp will be more effective if it is the latter.

Also, based on my experience, a newly-filled pond can have clay ionically suspended in it for which you can aerate until the cows come home without making a difference; a test I learned from Cecil on another board is to stand a big jar of the water for a couple of days and see if it stays cloudy. If the water has susupended clay, it's an easy fix with aluminum sulfate powder dissolved and broadcast; made a big difference for us.

24/7 aeration is awfully expensive, and it doesn't sound like lack of 02 is your problem.

Hi MIke well to answer your question about catfish reproduction, I didn't think it was possible but over the weekend I wanted to clean a bunch of my large 3 plus year old catfish out and ran a trotline. Caught 15 cats from 3 to 7 pounds. Also was doing a little bluegill fishing and caught a 8 inch catfish! I don't think there is any way catfish stocked over three years ago only gained at a maximum 4 inches. So I guess last year they did reproduce. I have several hollowed out oak logs courtesy of lovely carpenter ants in my pond and believe these provided the refuge needed. Hope that helps some. Forgot to add my pond is a little over 1/3 acre 8' max depth.

Bob

Mike,
Do a visability test. You're shooting for 18" to 24" vis. If less than 12" you need to do aeration NOW!

Thanks for the replies. I stopped at the fish hatchery yesterday and he suggested and I bought 10 grass carp. He also suggested copper sulfate but said he wouldnt put it in now since it may kill eggs from any recent spawning activity. Is there any of that stuff that wont hurt the eggs??
He said to put in the bluing agent. He didnt know why I would be having trouble catching blue gill and LMB since from the stocking #s I could be overstocked. He did suggest that the poor clarity may be a factor since the BG and LMB strike on sight and the cats on smell?? anyone buy that???
When I got home with the grass carp I noticed A big change in the pond, It is now brown instead of green? Is this just the next phase???
Onto the clarity, Its hard to describe but Im reading on here all the time about people fertilizing to reduce visibility down to 18-24in. That has NEVER been my problem, Visibilty right now is down too 3-4 inches and the best I have ever seen it is 8-10 in.????

So my two issues to resolve is:

#1 Why is my clarity so poor and is it a problem???

#2 Why cant I catch the blue gill and LMG, does anyone think there somehow not in there and I need to restock again???

One more issue that somone may have experience on. My air pump ( 2 yrs old) wont start any more by itself, you have to plug it in, then reach in with a screwdriver and spin the pump end and it takes right off. after numerous hours of run time it quits, and when I find it like this its hotter than **** . I let it cool and then re- spin start it again. I changed the capaciter but that didnt help, I even tried a super booster??

It sounds like the bearings on the Air Pump are going bad. If you can get to the bearings and/or drive shaft, you may be able to get some (temporary) improvement by cleaning and relubing.

My guess is you will be seeing your fish soon!
Sorry but it sounds like you're headed for a fish kill.

Mike--I'm not sure exactly what leads Ric to his conclusion, but if you for sure had a serious pea-green algae bloom and it is now brown it sounds like the algae all died, which means lack of dissolved oxygen, which would indeed lead to trouble for the fish. So when you say "is this the next stage," the answer may be yes, but maybe not in a good way. If you are able to get started immediately, like tomorrow, with aeration, then go for it; FWIW, I had the tube for my aerator above ground for awhile before I got it trenched in, and merely installing the aerator is a snap--get the stone out to the middle of the pond and plug in the compressor. As far as copper sulfate killing eggs, I don't know the answer; but given the amount of algal growth you've described you would probably want to apply Cutrine or whatever to part of the pond at a time, especially since you already have a heavy load of decaying biologicals underway. You might also consider investing in a round of beneficial microbes to help with consumption of the decaying matter in the water column.

Mike, one more thing--it's worth thinking about whether the lack of clarity is suspended clay vs. organic matter, live, decaying, or otherwise. We have a 3/4 acre clay pond, filled entirely by runoff. The clarity for the first couple of years was essentially nil, and with guidance from Cecil Baird on the Farm Ponds board I was able to use jars of water to determine that I had ionically suspended clay in the water. I applied alum (aluminum sulfate) and the clarity has since been far better. It's an easy test to run, but it sounds like you need to focus on oxygen issues first. Good luck!

Island,
Many posts on this site advising on bloom, water vis. ect. A little searching can save you the same sorrows others have had.
There is a reason the pros now advise a min. of 18" vis. verses the 12" that used to be the standard. 12" vis is too close to the danger every pondmiester is very careful to avoid when fertilizing a pond. If something unforseen happens & the bloom increases beyond 12" vis a fish kill is very probable if the bloom continues to increase.
Mike,
You say vis is 3"-4". Very not good!
I am not a pro .. going from memory:(which btw isn't too good anymore) The algae will produce oxygen during the day & use oxygen at night. If vis is 18" or better then more oxygen will be produced during the day than is used at night. Somewhere below 12" the algae will use more oxygen at night than it can produce during the day. So it dies. As the bloom dies it consumes more oxygen as it decays & the decaying matter adds more nutrients to the pond starting the cycle over again.
So. The result is very low do and a fish kill starting with the largest fish.

Yes the hatchery guy is correct.

Ric-- Thanks for the summary. I've never had any sort of pea-soup boolm and so haven't had to focus on that particular pondly devilment yet! My visibility hovers around 2'+, after treatment two years ago.

Mike,
I am afraid to advise you on what to do in this situation, other than aerate, to avoid a fish kill. You must reduce the bloom & in the future try to prevent excess bloom. I'm not schooled on this subject other than what I've learned here.
The only other thing I know that has been used with success is barley straw. It will reduce the "stringy algae" but is best used as a deterent rather than a fix.
Do you have any idea why you have the excess bloom this year if not last? Did you over fertilize? Is there runoff from nutrient rich farmland?
Look for the source of the excess nutrients contributing to the bloom & eliminate or try to control it.

BTW, if you have access to a volt meter make sure you have full voltage to your air compressor motor. A loose connection can cause low voltage which will also show up as the symptons you describe.

Thanks for all the help, I am heading out right now (8 am saterday) to see what I can hook onto. To answar some of the questions, the pond was like this last year too. There is dry land corn on 2 sides of the pond but I dont think any run off can get to the pond, its built with high banks and an overflow tube.
We did have trouble with suspended clay early on as it was difficult to get plant growth on the edges and the entire area was escavated during pond construction so when it would rain lots of dirt would enter the pond. I will do the jar test to see if thats still a problem.
The pump is back going again and the voltage might be a good idea to check as it runs on 200 ft of cord, as it has for 2yrs but a bad connection is possible.
Since the second stocking I have seen only one fish (BG) dead at the side of the pond and that was last fall. So would I be correct to say that if I was losing fish at this time I would find them floating at the edge??????

Well, I set a bobber with a worm and took to walking the banks casting a spinner bait. After an hour or so I made it around the pond without a bite. Checked the bobber, (it was under of coarse) had another baby cat fish. If I was going for a great cat fish pond I would say Im there. Its very easy to catch them, you will either get a baby cat or more likely a 2 pounder + or - a little.
The heavy brown color that was there thursday is gone? I filled a quart jar that im looking at right now. It has a hint of green but for the most part its just cloudy. You cant see thru it but if you hold your hand up to one side you can make out the color of your skin. We will see if anything settles to the bottom and I will post the results tomarrow.

From all the info I have recieved over the past heres my thinking, Ill make a case both ways.

The BG and LMBs have to be in there because:
1. They were stocked twice.
2. There has never been one dead floating at the bank.
3. The cats are thriving, they have to be eating somthing.
4. Just cant catch them since the water clarity is so bad.
5. cat fish, frogs, snails & minnows do well in the pond so the BG and LMB should too.

The BG and LMB cant be in there because:

1. Cant catch them.
2. Never see the LMB jump like others do in there pond.
3. Never see them at the surface.
4. They all died and instead of floating they just sank to the bottom.
5. If the BG and LMB were in there they would have finished off the minnow population long ago.

Which is it??????????

you are rushing things,let the water get wright and fish will bite,it takes time.i believe 100% your fish are in the pond.i've wrote 20 times on this site with my lake,can't catch a bass.when the water clears you will start catching them.i think(no pro )you are rushing things.i've caught more bass in the past 6 weeks than i have in the past 2 1/2 years out of my lake.guess what!!!my water was allways a off muddy color.my water finally got about 12"of vis. and the bite got 100 times better.i've added on too my pond several times over the last year and just when the water was getting fair i would flood the new section and the water would get off color and guess what 12 months of poor bass fishing.

Mike - I'd echo most, if not all of what Ric has stated. You're heading toward a train wreck (with a dip net and shovel in hand) if you don't get sufficient aeration going - and soon!
Also, based on your statements, I'd avoid any further advice from the fish hatchery guy. 1) grass carp don't seem to be a solution for any of the problems you've listed. 2) Pond dye is the LAST thing you'd want to add to your pond right now - make that the second-last thing - don't put any copper-based products in there or you could crash your excessive bloom and DO level, which as also what a lake dye could do (as the algae can absorb the pigment and die as a results). 3) DO NOT FERTILIZE! Your excessive bloom - probably a blue-green algae ("pea soup") - is an obvious indication that your pond already contains more than enough nutrients. 4) LMB are more sensitive to low O2 levels than catfish. I went to Pike Peak last summer. Now I know how a LMB feels when O2 is a problem. I could hardly walk around, much less enjoy myself (the TX Coast does't prepare one for such environments). Bass are quite capable of feeding in murky water. They possess sensory nerves along their lateral line that help them detect their prey - and many lures. But, they won't expend their energy if they're oxygen-stressed. 5) As already stated, "green to brown" is definitely NOT a good sign. Your algae population is crashing, and will likely take the DO with it - if it hasn't already done so.
At this point, I'd stay focused on getting the pond aerated and hopefully avoid a total fish-kill. Forget the CUTRINE (which, btw, is quite a bit different than copper sulfate) and the lake dye, at least for now. Once you've (hopefully) avoided an O2 disaster, you might consider steps to gradually reduce your bloom to more stable levels.

Thanks for the replies, Lee I hope your right!
Kelly, controling the bloom is what I have been trying to do for 2 years. To make sure you understand, this pond has never been fertilized and has had an air pump going almost non stop since 2002. The heavy bloom comes and goes and I have seen this green to brown situation before. As I said a couple posts back, the brown color is gone now. The quart sample I took this morning has a Slightly green tint too it but is mostly just cloudy (you cant see thru it)
The only other thing I did was last year. I put in 3 gallons of somthing from TSC for algea control, dont remember what it was called.
So you dont think the low visibility is the problem with catching BG and LMBs? Do you think they are already gone and just sunk to the bottom? Anything else I can do?

Thanks for the help

If you've seen the green-to-brown situation before, you may have lost some/most/all of your LMB during one of the previous crashes. Are you certain that such was not the case?

There's no telling what the stuff was from TSC. They used to carry CUTRINE PLUS down here, then switched to a cheaper/inferior algaecide - but "forgot" to reduce their selling price....

Aerators significantly reduce the potential for oxygen problems. However, the operative word is "reduce" - not "prevent". Warm water is less capable of holding dissolved oxygen than cool water. I don't know your water-temps up there, but (inadequately) aerated ponds can suffer from oxygen difficiencies in warm weather when coupled with a catastrophic algae or plant-biomass crash; same as a bank account that has more withdrawals than offsetting deposits.

Certain ? no way to be sure but the only time we have found floating fish was in the fall of 2002 a few months after the first stocking? Where else would they be? We do get a nice bloom but Im starting to wonder if the bloom has anything to do with the clarity?

Mike,
You're in good hands with Kelly. He knows what he's talking about.
Kelly,
Thanks for the help I was over my head.

Your previous descriptions lead me to believe that the bloom-level is dictating your water's clarity. If turbidity was an issue (muddy water), you probably wouldn't see the green/brown/clear cycles.

A good phytoplankon bloom is generally desired. However, I think it might be the excessive blooms that are causing the cycle-effect.

Do I have enough aeration? I cant answar. The pond is 5/8 to 3/4 acres in size, 9 ft at deepest, averages about 4ft. aerator is located in about 5ft of water towards one end of this kidney shaped pond.
Perhaps when I look at the jar tomarrow that will shed some light to the clarity problem. I will post the results.

Just want to say thanks to all who post to help with my problem.......THANK YOU!!!