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snrub #471274 05/05/17 09:38 AM
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Any opinions on the pedigree of the first fish? It does not show up in the picture as well as in real life but the border on the opercular tab is a solid white with just a hint of orange. A GSF has a translucent tab border usually of orangish/whitishness and a RES has a solid red or orange. But this fish the tab border was solid white with maybe just a hint of orange.

RESxGSF hybrid??? I'm not sure. Nice fish though. It went back in to grow some more.

The rest of the fish are RESxGSF hybrids that were transferred either my sediment pond or forage pond where they were created from a few GSF contaminating the ponds. I assume they are RESxGSF. The other possibility is CNBGxGSF (I catch a smaller number of those also) because I also had CNBG in the sediment pond. But I believe the rest of the pictures are of RESxGSF.

All caught out of main pond.

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Pretty cool, not as cool as the Warmouth X CNBG hybrids I posted but pretty cool...

LOL

Last edited by BobbyRice; 05/05/17 01:40 PM.

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Bottom 3 fish look like GRES hybrids to me...top fish appears a F3-4 GBG heavily skewed towards BG genetics IMO. I'm not a lepomis expert by any means...


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Here is a RESxGSF hybrid that shows both characteristics very well. Caught from my forage pond.

What I see in the characteristics that to me make it a hybrid are listed below. I encourage others to post what they see, both in agreement and disagree.

This fish comes out of a pond with only RES and a few GSF. No BG or predators present and the only other fish in the pond are GS and FHM minnows.

1. Solid orange specifically on the end of the opercular tab (as opposed to wrapped around) like a RES
2. Translucent whitish border above and below the solid orange tab reminiscent of a GSF (hard to see in this picture but very evident in real life)
3. Green cheek bars like a GSF
4. Longer and narrow pectoral fin compared to a GSF (more like a RES)
5. Lower fin tipping color and belly color similar to a lot of my GSF
6. Blue-green flecks of color in the main body (GSF like)
7. Too large mouth for a pure RES that size


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Last edited by snrub; 05/31/17 03:42 PM.

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I agree with the id.

You should start taking pics of gill rakers !

One thing I see is your RES have a longer more torpedo shape than what I see. See RES pic below.
















snrub #481356 10/19/17 11:20 PM
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Some more RESxGSF hybrids. These two came out of my forage pond and there are no BG in that pond so I know they are of RES parentage.

Third and fourth fish are pure RES for comparison of traits. All out of my forage pond.

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I've said it before; I'll say it again. Those Redear girls will go out with anyone.


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John, from my perspective it looks like those RESxGSF have exaggerated GSF features. Maybe it’s just picture angles, but they look to have larger longer mouths than a normal BGxGSF cross.


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snrub - your hybrids appear similar to those infamous georgia giants.


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Originally Posted By: Theo Gallus
I've said it before; I'll say it again. Those Redear girls will go out with anyone.


Why do you think I like them so much? laugh


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Originally Posted By: Snakebite
John, from my perspective it looks like those RESxGSF have exaggerated GSF features. Maybe it’s just picture angles, but they look to have larger longer mouths than a normal BGxGSF cross.


I get a range of features. Some show more GSF than others. Had I not seen hundreds and hundreds of hybrids from fingerlings to 9+", it might be tempting to just call that fish a GSF. But all you have to do is get a real GSF beside it and the hybrid features become very evident.

The mouth is large on that fish, but if it were a pure GSF either the mouth would be bigger or the fish would not be as tall for that size mouth. The mouth to height (tallness) of the fish is off for a Pure GSF. Pure GSF will have the same size mouth as a LMB of the same length.

Another thing is the opercular tab. These fish have definite darker orange tab borders than what my GSF have. My GSF have a translucent border anywhere from almost white to an orangeish cast. But it is always translucent. It may not show well in the picture but this fish has a mixture of translucent and solid pigment (RES is solid). Some will have an orange dot in the middle of the translucence. Pure RES will always be solid color and none of mine wrap around the opercular tab. They are on the end only whereas the GSF margin wraps around.

I also get hybrids out of my sediment pond. There it is harder for me to tell for sure if they are CNBG/GSF or RES/GSF. Both potential crosses can be made there as well as potentially northern BG because during high water events they can swim up into this pond (with difficulty but they get there - I have seen them do it). That pond had CNBG and RES originally stocked. The nice thing about this forage pond is that it has never had BG stocked and out of hundreds of fish caught and thousands trapped I have never seen a BG. That gives me confidence that I only have to determine if it is either 1. RES, 2.GSF or 3.a hybrid thereof. That makes it a lot easier for me.

In my main pond I originally had 40 or so HBG as contamination at stocking time. I religiously fished them out and transferred them to my old refurbished pond that already had GSF in it. Got rid of those "things". grin About the time I could not catch any more or at least would very rarely catch one (they are much easier to fish out because of their propensity to bite a hook compared to BG) I decided I really did like hybrids. I'm a pan fish guy, not a big bass guy. So I started stocking my main pond with home raised hybrids from my forage and sediment ponds. Both CNBG/GSF and RES/GSF.

In fact I had even thought about specifically stocking a few GSF females to get some GRES (RESxGSF hybrids). Well as luck or fate would have it, it happened by accident instead of intent.

I get LOTS of naturally occurring hybrids out of my two small ponds. My thinking is that the reason I get so many hybrids is two fold. One is I fish out and remove as many GSF as I can (both trap and hook). So the GSF population stays relatively low compared to the other sunfish. Second both of these ponds have very low visibility most of the year. The forage pond because of a very heavy planktonic algae bloom and the sediment pond mostly because of the high rate of runoff from agriculture ground. I surmise it is the combination of the GSF having limited mating options and the turbid water that give me so many hybrids.

All the hybrids get moved to my main pond. We have caught some up in the 9" range recently and filleted them. I really like the fish. And when the pure BG get persnickety about getting caught I can nearly always depend on a hybrid accommodating my hook.

Last edited by snrub; 10/20/17 10:28 AM.

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More hybrid pictures. I am not certain on the parentage of the hybrids pictured below but I will give them my best guess. I would be interested in others opinions.

My best guess is listed on each picture. I do have northern BG for the most part but also have had CNBG in my sediment pond for two years now and last year transferred many hundreds of the offspring to my main pond. I do catch the CNBG occasionally from the main pond and nearly always from the sediment pond although during high water events a few northern BG have swam up into the sediment pond so there can also be both in it although I have caught no northern BG that I am aware of from that pond.

So most of my hybrid BG are actually CNBGxGSF but I do have both.

Nearly all the hybrids have been raised in my own ponds.

Edit: pic 182346 may be a CNBGxGSF rather than from northern BG. Just hard to tell for sure.

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Last edited by snrub; 10/21/17 11:22 PM.

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One I caught yesterday that particularly shows the RES parentage. This likely was transferred as a fingerling either from my forage or sediment pond into my main pond where I caught it.

RESxGSF hybrid - same fish two pictures

First picture has face of fish shaded so it shows up the GSF'ish green cheek bars really well. Second picture I stood to shade the fish and the orange opercular tab shows up much better. Notice that it looks RES'ish but is not completely solid like a RES. But it is much more solid color than a GSF would exhibit with the solid part being on the end of the ear tab (RES'sih) and the whitish translucent portion wrapping around the tab (GSF'sih).

Just going by the pictures, a person might think it was two different fish. But it is only one fish (you can actually see it is laying in the same spot and position). Just goes to show how lighting and angle can change the perception. I often see things in a fish when I have it live that in pictures the feature can either look less or more pronounced.

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Last edited by snrub; 10/30/17 10:18 AM.

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Nice pictures snrub! Your GSF/RES hybrids are very cool.

I always try to take my RES pictures in the shade so they don't look washed out.



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snrub, would you have any pics of cnbg/res hyb? In my stocking plan I added 1850 res to a 3.25 acre pond along with my 3250 cnbg. In doing so, I think I have seen one or two cnbg/res hyb but not sure of it. I think with the fertile green water, it may have given an opportunity for the spawning but I am not sure.


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I have only seen a couple of fish I thought could have been CNBGxRES hybrids, but I am not good enough at identifying fish to be sure they were. I just knew they looked different than most of my HBG or HRES.

The only reason I am reasonably comfortable identifying these HRES (RESxGSF) is that I have seen lots and lots of them come from a pond that they are the only possible hybrid because RES and GSF are the only sunfish in the pond (my forage pond).

Below is another RESxGSF that I caught out of my main pond yesterday. Lots of these hybrids were transferred from my forage pond as fingerlings and now they have grown. I return all of these particular hybrids to the pond to grow up because I am curious as to how they will turn out.

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Last edited by snrub; 11/04/17 11:35 PM.

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No sooner than I say I have rarely seen in my pond CNBGxRES hybrids and I catch two in a row of what I think are BGxRES and most likely CNBGxRES (because that is the mix that was in my sediment pond where lots of hybrids were created, transferred to my main pond, where these 4 fish were caught).

So the pics below are not RESxGSF, what this thread is about, but I thought it would be interesting to post the pictures to see the contrast. All fish pictured below were caught today and I got pics of both sides of each fish for better identification.

The first two fish are what I believe are CNBGxRES (or could be RESxCNBG - male of the cross usually stated first). No guarantees and I will be interested to hear what the experts say. I will give my reasoning and what I see and they can agree or disagree.

The first four pictures are of the two alleged CNBGxRES. Here is what I see that makes me believe they are that cross. 1. There is a translucent margin on the opercular tab. Cant remember for sure but I think it was Bill Cody that said a pure BG will always have a solid opercular. No margin. If that is so, the translucent margin indicates this fish is a hybrid if a person believes it has BG genetics involved. 2. I see no GSF genetics in the fish. No large mouth, no green bars below the eyes, relatively long pectoral fin. 3. What I do see below the eye and opercular tab is the yellow mottled patch that is on about 3/4 of my RES and is not a characteristic of any of my BG. 4. orange-ish translucent border on the opercular tab. That could be a characteristic of a GSF, but in this case there are no other GSF characteristics so the orange could come from RES genetics. 5. Could it be a RES with just a poorly defined red/orange tab? Possibly but the top of the fish has bright blue/purple that is very characteristic of some of my CNBG but never my RES. 6. The possible genetics in my ponds are BG, CNBG, RES and GSF. I have never seen, to my knowledge, any other sunfish species that stood out as being different than the mentioned four. Therefore by the characteristics I see and process of elimination I deem the first 4 pictures of two fish to be either RESxBG or BGxRES.

Fish 3 and four are just what I consider to be normal CNBGxGSF HBG. They could be northern BGxGSF but the probability is much higher that it is CNBG genetics because nearly all of my hybrids came from my sediment pond and CNBG is what was stocked along with RES in that pond with a few GSF from unknown source providing the GSF portion of the HBG. I put the regular HBG in there for comparison. They are nice fish, fillet out well and I like them. The first two fish went back in the pond. The HBG went to the holding pen to be invited to dinner.

Edit: the translucent opercular tab border is not very pronounced in the picture for fish #2 but if you look closely you can see it. It was very evident in person. Funny I caught the first two fish back to back in the same area.

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Last edited by snrub; 11/20/17 11:37 PM.

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Thank you snrub for the pic's of suspected res/bg hybd. The two fish I caught were very similar. About the only difference was in the color of the fish and that could be due to your water color or the picture itself. My two were a little more of a brownish/copper colored checkered pattern on the two side of the fish. Yours look to be a blueish/grey color from the pic. So, maybe others might join in with an opinion.

Last edited by TGW1; 11/21/17 09:17 AM.

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My BG have really turned colorful this fall. So much so I mentioned how pretty they were to my wife. I have lots that have that bright blue almost purple across the back and some of the females have such a bright almost iridescent yellow belly. Other colors enhanced to. The bright blue across the back is another BG feature that I do not see in my RES.

Last edited by snrub; 11/21/17 11:18 AM.

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Another alleged RESxGSF hybrid caught tonight. Pretty fish.

Second fish a regular HBG for comparison. This HBG looks more like a regular BG than some.

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Last edited by snrub; 11/22/17 12:02 AM.

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Snrub, This may be a bit off topic from your work with RES, but you seem to have a strong interest in monitoring hybrids. From what I've read, you have CNBG and northern BG in your pond. Do you notice many differences? I get that GSFxBG=HBG which to leads to a more aggressive growth which is common when cross breeding many things. The CNBG and BG must certainly cross in your pond so do you see any "mixed" BG? And are they any more aggressive or come in on the end of a hook any more frequently? I wish I could put some CNBG in my pond up here.


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Good questions. Most of which I do not have answers for.

Some background. My main pond is 3 acres and was 2-3 years old before any CNBG were introduced. So the pond was likely at carrying capacity and had northern BG in the tens if not hundreds of thousands.

I stocked 100 CNBG and 175 RES in my 1/10th acre forage pond. They spawned and the pond likely went to carrying capacity with a large percentage being CNBG. I fished out what I could what had grown to be 5-7" original CNBG and put them in the main pond. I also trapped lots of fingerlings and put in the main pond. At year two of the sediment pond I had a fish kill and dip netted thousands of CNBG out before they surely would have died and put them in the main pond. So I put maybe a few thousand CNBG into a pond that likely had tens of thousands or more of northern BG.

The point of all of this is that my main pond being 30 times larger, even if both ponds were at carrying capacity and all the CNBG from the forage pond went into the main pond there would still be at least 30 times more northern BG compared to CNBG. I suspect it is closer to 100 to one. Point being I rarely, but do occasionally, catch a CNBG. The females I sometimes have a hard time telling. I will catch a fish with the wide vertical stripes common to CNBG and I think it may be a CNBG but my fish ID skills are not good enough to tell for sure. Once in a great while I will catch a nice male with traditional markings that it is certain to be a CNBG. So the CNBG are a very minor part of my total fish population in my main pond.

Will they intermix? My understanding is that they will and one reason I got some was for genetic diversity. Are they "hybrids" with hybrid vigor? My understanding is they are not. Since they are actually the same species (each a sub-specie) they do not take on the trait of a hybrid but will take on mixed characteristics. If the experts say otherwise, believe them over me. That is just how I understand it.

I am not far enough along to know if I have any mixed northern BG/CNBG. It is possible at this point because I had transferred the 6" nominal adults last year as I caught them. They have had time to spawn. But since I am having trouble identifying female CNBG for sure I'm not sure I will be able to tell a mixed one when I see it. That could very well be what I am seeing with the wide vertical bars on some of my fish. The CNBG could already be intermixing.

I'm not a purist so it does not matter to me. I like the hybrids and I like both types BG. As long as they are healthy pan fish that is my goal for the main pond - a pan fish pond. I have been harvesting some really nice 9"+ HBG that were originally created in my sediment pond and transferred to the main pond. (a few GSF got in that sediment pond and created a LOT of CNBGxGSF hybrids and a much lower amount of RESxGSF hybrids - these also got transferred to the main pond at fish kill time and some before on purpose).

That is what I think I know to date. Next year I will try to notice and take pictures if I see what I think are CNBG northern BG crosses.

References:
fish kill post in sediment pond thread
Main pond thread
Sediment pond thread

Edit to add a another picture of one I caught today.

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Last edited by snrub; 11/23/17 11:51 PM.

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Thanks for the response last week. The holiday got in the way and I didn't get around to any followup. Along with your RES projects, maybe this would give you cause to dig a new puddle just for breeding northern BG x CNBG smile

BTW, I've read through all of your threads and projects and really appreciate what you've done and continue to do. I think you and I have similar goals - nice pan fish before predators, place for family to enjoy, and a hobby that doubles as an inspirational learning environment for chronic tinkerers.


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Thanks for the kind words. I think I missed your reply when you posted it.

Did some fishing today and caught a number of hybrids from my main pond (as well as a lot of BG and one foot long CC). These will have been hybrids produced either in my sediment pond or forage pond and transferred to my main pond as fingerlings.

The first one I believe to be a RESxGSF hybrid. The other two are likely CNBGxGSF as those were the two possibilities in my forage pond that was stocked with CNBG and RES with a few GSF introduced somehow. Also caught several smaller ones, but these three were decent size.

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Last edited by snrub; 03/21/18 10:33 PM.

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This fish has the appearance of a pure RES but lacking much of the red/orange coloration on the opercular tab. It does have a narrow orange band but it is small and is such that leads me to believe it might be a RESxBG or RESxCNBG hybrid.

Any opinions on the pedigree?

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Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

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