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#480721 - 10/05/17 06:34 AM Pasture Herbicide
Caviler03 Offline


Registered: 02/16/14
Posts: 109
Loc: Texas
What is a safe herbicide to use on some pastures that runoff into the pond. I have some terrible bahia and other weeds id like to kill off if possible.

Ideally, I'd like to spread something to the entire pasture and not have to spot spray... Anything out there?

Thanks in advance for suggestions!

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#480723 - 10/05/17 07:21 AM Re: Pasture Herbicide [Re: Caviler03]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 1998
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
Hay there Cav. Hope all is well. How are your Camolot's and Lonestar Legacy lmb doing? I wanted to pass this along concerning the spraying of weeds using Herbicides. My son raises bee's and he would be upset if I did not bring attention to the fact that herbicides are killing bees all over the place. He has told me, if I have to spray do it in the late evening when the bees are back in their hives and not spray during the days when they are foraging for pollen. There is something going on with the bees for sure. I understand they are Federally protected now and one can be libel when spraying near hives and killing the bees. I do not want to start any fuss but like I said my son would be upset if I said nothing. One can use Vinegar for killing weeds and will not harm the bees. Best wishes to u an the new wifey Cav.
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

Tracy

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#480724 - 10/05/17 07:29 AM Re: Pasture Herbicide [Re: Caviler03]
RAH Online   content
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 3746
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
What herbicide is killing bees. As an entomologist, I would really like to know since we have bees on our place and often use herbicides. BTW - One species of wild bumble bee is listed as endangered, not the exotic European honey bee raised by bee keepers. Honey bees are now known to spread disease to wild bees and are contributing to the loss of native bees. Also, just because something seems "natural" does not make it safe.

http://www.xerces.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/xerces-organic-approved-pesticides-factsheet.pdf

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/...nators-disease/

This might be a good choice of herbicide:

https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/67F89CB7-D919-47DD-890F-EBABBBD32E6E/0/Imazapic.pdf

https://www.fs.fed.us/foresthealth/pesticide/pdfs/122304_Imazapic.pdf

And weed control recomendations

http://forages.tamu.edu/PDF/B-5038.pdf


Edited by RAH (10/05/17 07:46 AM)

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#480732 - 10/05/17 10:08 AM Re: Pasture Herbicide [Re: Caviler03]
Caviler03 Offline


Registered: 02/16/14
Posts: 109
Loc: Texas
Hey Tracy! The bass are doing great, now if I could just find some time to fish and catch them!

Thank you so much for the caution of bee's, I had no clue about the issue.

RAH I'll definitely spend some time searching through the articles. I really appreciate you spending time to help!

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#480738 - 10/05/17 11:53 AM Re: Pasture Herbicide [Re: RAH]
DonoBBD Offline


Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 1775
Loc: Ontario, Canada, Eh.
Originally Posted By: RAH
What herbicide is killing bees. As an entomologist, I would really like to know since we have bees on our place and often use herbicides. BTW - One species of wild bumble bee is listed as endangered, not the exotic European honey bee raised by bee keepers. Honey bees are now known to spread disease to wild bees and are contributing to the loss of native bees. Also, just because something seems "natural" does not make it safe.

http://www.xerces.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/xerces-organic-approved-pesticides-factsheet.pdf

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/...nators-disease/

This might be a good choice of herbicide:

https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/67F89CB7-D919-47DD-890F-EBABBBD32E6E/0/Imazapic.pdf

https://www.fs.fed.us/foresthealth/pesticide/pdfs/122304_Imazapic.pdf

And weed control recomendations

http://forages.tamu.edu/PDF/B-5038.pdf


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoid

This is what is killing the honey bees. This is placed on seeds to prevent bugs from eating the seed before it starts to grow. The problem is the new air drills that plant the seeds. The air delivers the seed to the ground and the air then blows off the insecticide. This insecticide cloud then blows on to flowers that the bees land on. They take that back to the hive and kill the hive.
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#480739 - 10/05/17 11:56 AM Re: Pasture Herbicide [Re: Caviler03]
DonoBBD Offline


Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 1775
Loc: Ontario, Canada, Eh.
Originally Posted By: Caviler03
What is a safe herbicide to use on some pastures that runoff into the pond. I have some terrible bahia and other weeds id like to kill off if possible.

Ideally, I'd like to spread something to the entire pasture and not have to spot spray... Anything out there?

Thanks in advance for suggestions!


I use ParIII around our pond twice a year at a rate of 1.5Liter per acre. It is used on golf courses all the time. There is very little run off from this product. Pulled into the grasses and weeds very quick. If it turns hot and dry after spraying it can lift in the air but rare to run off in water.

Cheers Don.
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7/8th of an acre, Perch only pond, Ontario, Canada.

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#480743 - 10/05/17 12:16 PM Re: Pasture Herbicide [Re: DonoBBD]
RAH Online   content
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 3746
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
From someone who actually tested things and published results in a scientific journal: (imidacloprid is a neonic).

"Given the weight of evidence, chronic exposure to imidacloprid at the higher range of field doses (20 to 100 μg/kg) in pollen of certain treated crops could cause negative impacts on honey bee colony health and reduced overwintering success, but the most likely encountered high range of field doses relevant for seed-treated crops (5 μg/kg) had negligible effects on colony health and are unlikely a sole cause of colony declines."

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0118748


Edited by RAH (10/05/17 12:22 PM)

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#480745 - 10/05/17 12:25 PM Re: Pasture Herbicide [Re: Caviler03]
RAH Online   content
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 3746
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
Be sure to read the label online before following recommendations from any posting forum, including those that I provided. I checked that my recommendation was safe to fish and other aquatics, and that it actually controls the grass you mentioned in your post, but you should verify so that you don't spend money buying and applying a product that will not control your primary weed (which seems to be bahiagrass).


Edited by RAH (10/05/17 12:26 PM)

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#480759 - 10/05/17 05:54 PM Re: Pasture Herbicide [Re: Caviler03]
DonoBBD Offline


Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 1775
Loc: Ontario, Canada, Eh.
The worst part about discussing cause and effect is there is always another study that states the exact opposite. All falls back on who is funding the study.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/06/c...rge-study-finds


http://science.sciencemag.org/content/356/6345/1393
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7/8th of an acre, Perch only pond, Ontario, Canada.

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#480760 - 10/05/17 06:28 PM Re: Pasture Herbicide [Re: DonoBBD]
Bocomo Online   content


Registered: 05/06/12
Posts: 1062
Loc: Boone County, MO (pond)
Originally Posted By: DonoBBD
The worst part about discussing cause and effect is there is always another study that states the exact opposite. All falls back on who is funding the study.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/06/c...rge-study-finds


http://science.sciencemag.org/content/356/6345/1393


These studies are about pesticides, not herbicides.
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#480763 - 10/05/17 08:13 PM Re: Pasture Herbicide [Re: Bocomo]
RAH Online   content
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 3746
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
They are not even studies. They are commentary on the actual studies. Of course insecticides kill insects if exposure is sufficient. The issue is whether the impact is acceptable relative to the benefit that is supplied. Antibiotics have adverse effects on gut bacteria, but they also kill off serious infections. The important thing in science is not to let emotion and ideology color the interpretation of the science.


Edited by RAH (10/05/17 08:18 PM)

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#480774 - 10/06/17 08:56 AM Re: Pasture Herbicide [Re: Caviler03]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 1998
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
Thanks guys for posting up. My son is a commercial bee keeper and he and I have had many discussions over spraying herbicides at the farm. As per his request to me, "if you need to or have to spray herbicides, spray in late evening or at night". And after all I have read, I think its most likely the safest way to use a herbicide when it comes to bees or other pollinators. And one of the reports above listed Vinegar as a herbicide as a low risk.
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

Tracy

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#480779 - 10/06/17 10:51 AM Re: Pasture Herbicide [Re: Caviler03]
RAH Online   content
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 3746
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
And I am an entomologist, but I still think folks should use Google Scholar to verify anything I post to a forum:

https://honeybeesuite.com/beekeeping-myths-half-truths-and-rumors/

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#480785 - 10/06/17 12:39 PM Re: Pasture Herbicide [Re: Caviler03]
DonoBBD Offline


Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 1775
Loc: Ontario, Canada, Eh.
So what is your view RAH on the pollen of corn bore resistance corn?
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7/8th of an acre, Perch only pond, Ontario, Canada.

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#480786 - 10/06/17 01:28 PM Re: Pasture Herbicide [Re: Caviler03]
RAH Online   content
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 3746
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
This corn expresses the Bt proteins used as a direct spray on organic crops, and each protein and the corn pollen have no effect on Hymenoptera (bees). The activity of these proteins is limited to the larval stage of certain Lepidoptera (butterflies and moth caterpillars). But don't take my word for it. Do a search in Google Scholar.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-7652.2011.00595.x/full

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0001415


Edited by RAH (10/06/17 01:40 PM)

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#480789 - 10/06/17 02:09 PM Re: Pasture Herbicide [Re: TGW1]
RAH Online   content
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 3746
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...


Edited by RAH (10/06/17 02:10 PM)

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#480813 - 10/07/17 08:52 AM Re: Pasture Herbicide [Re: Caviler03]
wbuffetjr Online   content


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 666
Loc: in the mountains
Rah, I am not disagreeing because I am definitely not an entomologist. What about this?
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-41512791

This is the other article linked in that article
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40382086

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#480814 - 10/07/17 10:23 AM Re: Pasture Herbicide [Re: Caviler03]
RAH Online   content
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 3746
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
With our current highly sensitive analytical methods, many things can be found in antarctic ice too. In toxicology, the mantra is that "the dose makes the poison". Even water will kill you if you drink too much. Your second link is a case in point. The study shows that in one crop (canola) planted in the winter in one country, that some harm can be demonstrated to bees nesting very close by. All the land around my place is planted to crops treated with these same insecticides and both our honey bee hives and our wild bees are doing spectacular. Our bee keeper has at least 9 other locations and he says our bees produce the most honey and have the highest survival. We do ask him to keep his hives far from our commercial vegetable field so they won't compete with the wild native bees that we rely on.


Edited by RAH (10/08/17 05:25 AM)

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#480850 - 10/09/17 10:54 AM Re: Pasture Herbicide [Re: Caviler03]
DonoBBD Offline


Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 1775
Loc: Ontario, Canada, Eh.
RAH the bee devastation will happen all at once with the neonic.

Not knocking the science but the real world problem with the neonic is how the seeds are planted. The science is looking at the neonic being taken up by the treated plant and being in the pollen.

The big problem is how the seed is now planted. Years ago corn seed, you paid a premium for large flats. The disk planters worked best with large flats. Now today you pay a premium for large rounds. Today's planters push the seeds to the ground from long air tubes and a very large fan. Any extra neonic on the seed will then blown off into a very large dirt/neonic cloud that is incredibly toxic in the prevailing wind side of the day of planting.

If you have a flowering wild flower field that most all your worker bees are heading to that gets dosed with planter cloud you will loose many many bees. If they live they will bring back neonic and raise the amount in the honey.

In the end we our self are just big bugs it just takes more product to effect us.

I personally think in the future we will look at neonic as the DDT of the past.

Cheers Don.
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7/8th of an acre, Perch only pond, Ontario, Canada.

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#480856 - 10/09/17 11:27 AM Re: Pasture Herbicide [Re: Caviler03]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 1998
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
I bet ya Cav is thinking when he asked about what to use at his place, " what did I start up here" lol I think the truth is we do not understand the whole picture that is going on with the bees. So, it's probably best to use a little common since here. Herbicides seem to be necessary for farmers to produce the food for the world. And the same with the pesticides. Like said before, if you have to spray, it's probably best to spray at night and having known people who are true farmers they will work all hrs of the day anyway, so should be no big deal to spray at night when the pollinators are at home and sleeping. Anyone that owns a business or owns a farming business knows it takes 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year to be successful.
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.
Thank The Good Lord the government in Washington DC gets little done.
Outlawing guns will make a lot of us down here in the South
Outlaws and proud of it

Tracy

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#480858 - 10/09/17 11:53 AM Re: Pasture Herbicide [Re: Caviler03]
Caviler03 Offline


Registered: 02/16/14
Posts: 109
Loc: Texas
^^^^spot on Tracy!

I'd like to spray something to eliminate the problems I'm having and allow my Bermuda grass to take over. Of course, I would not want to harm any bees in the process.

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#480875 - 10/09/17 06:14 PM Re: Pasture Herbicide [Re: Caviler03]
kswaterfowler Offline


Registered: 04/17/16
Posts: 26
Loc: East Central Kansas
I spray a lot of herbicide on my property and I am also a beekeeper. Guess what they are all still alive. I'll be spraying Buccaneer Plus as soon as we get a hard freeze then a day in the 60s to kill broke and fescue so my native grasses can recolonize. Sprayed sericea with escort xp in Sept, and pasturguard in June.

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#480879 - 10/09/17 09:34 PM Re: Pasture Herbicide [Re: Caviler03]
RAH Online   content
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 3746
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
Like any group or people, some beekeepers are superstitious and some make decisions based on evidence. If people did not normally make decisions based on gut feel, scientists would not need to be trained to discard bias and look at what the facts tell them.


Edited by RAH (10/10/17 06:35 AM)

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#480892 - 10/10/17 08:38 AM Re: Pasture Herbicide [Re: Caviler03]
liquidsquid Offline


Registered: 11/20/11
Posts: 1832
Loc: East Bloomfield, NY USA
This year the beekeepers near us have had a banner fall due to the warm weather, and perfect conditions for fall wildflowers (asters and goldenrod). About 100 hives just down the road smelled like a honey factory from quite a distance! It's no wonder that the bears didn't attack.
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