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#479453 - 09/03/17 10:45 AM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Centrarchid Offline
Fingerling

Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 106
Loc: .
I hope you can access the youtube site to see expanded version. I have trouble seeing the good stuff in the windows of post above.

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#479460 - 09/04/17 09:02 AM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 291
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
Prolarvae in AM of September 4, 2017 getting really active now. Look closely and you should be able to see eyes as golden flecks. What I can see here much better than what you see filtered by camera and internet. Few people, even biologist, see this stuff.



Male Bluegill in adjacent compartment of same system jumped out. Most likely because he was going after flying insect attracted to light above tank. When he moved out the female Hand-paint Bluegill went bratty again. The Hand-paints are really prone to defending feeding territories.


Edited by Jim Wetzel (09/04/17 09:04 AM)
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Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri

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#479462 - 09/04/17 10:06 AM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 291
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
Prolarval Coppernose in nest as they appear morning prior to exodus. Physiologically they are already larvae as would like eat if I put brine shrimp in nest with them. Tonight as lights dim they will swim out in mass such that is looks like smoke. Fathers of other sunfish species I have watched get really aggressive at that time. The black basses have to switch over to tending a mobile brood that somehow stays together in his territory.



The larva is from previous brood that is ~9 days post exodus. You can clearly see color coming from food in its gut. In terms of weight it is about 6 times what it weighed at exodus. They still look nothing like adults. Over the next few days the fin rays and spines will come in very fast.

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Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri

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#479463 - 09/04/17 10:32 AM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: Jim Wetzel]
peachgrower Offline


Registered: 07/02/16
Posts: 352
Loc: Nashville, AR
Thanks so much again for sharing this with us! Its really amazing to see. Makes me want to go out this winter late and try to make a nice spot for spawning.
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#479465 - 09/04/17 11:02 AM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 291
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
Worth while effort to that end is very much a function of your ponds topography. Do you have pics of where the fish currently spawn?

I might be able to talk you through process to make spawning site for a colony that is good enough to pull them up where you can see them and be comfortable. Will require some carpentry, sand and a small boat.
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Aquaculture
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Lincoln University of Missouri

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#479466 - 09/04/17 11:12 AM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 291
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
Magnification of two fish above identical, I just moved slide around.
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#479472 - 09/04/17 01:19 PM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: Jim Wetzel]
ewest Offline
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Registered: 03/08/05
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Outstanding work !!!! If you have not , go see the youtube version !!
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#479473 - 09/04/17 01:51 PM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Bob Lusk Offline
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Registered: 04/10/02
Posts: 3035
Loc: Whitesboro, Texas
Excellent! Thanks, Jim, for sharing this great information people would otherwise not see.
Let's work together to produce a story, or series, for Pond Boss.
Interested?
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#479509 - 09/05/17 09:17 AM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 291
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
No exodus yet. All still in nest. Apparently still a little yolk remained yesterday evening. Some of the prolarvae/larvae are neutrally buoyant so the occasionally bounce up into water column.

Bob, I am giving it some thought on how to proceed. We do some pretty cool stuff here that is likely very well aligned with the interest of Pond Boss.
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Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri

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#479762 - 09/10/17 12:04 PM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 291
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
Interest seems to be dropping off on this. If more interesting, we could start sampling fry and taking higher quality images so you can see what they look like as if you were not old enough to need glasses.

The young fish in the stock tank are proceeding slowly, largely due to low water temperature. Their siblings being reared indoors are now metamorphosing to the fry stage so are at the point they could be transitioned to a feed that will in another week or so completely replace the zooplankton they are currently being fed. The feed training is done at a size which is a lot smaller than typically realized in a pond setting.
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Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri

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#479764 - 09/10/17 12:45 PM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: Jim Wetzel]
sprkplug Offline
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Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 6943
Loc: Freedom, Indiana
Jim it's still interesting, I think it may be a case of the membership trying to figure out what components are immediately applicable to ponds. I know that's true in my case anyway. I enjoy learning the science behind my interests, but on the other hand when It's time to change the oil on my pickup I don't research to learn what species of dinosaur it came from, my immediate need is to identify what weight and type of oil, and where can I buy it?

I see our membership as diverse, and there is absolutely a faction that delves into the details. But I also think there is probably a larger segment that is looking for more pond how-to, rather than how it happens?

It's only one guy's opinion, and worth what you paid for it, but maybe integrating some of the info into a real world pond setting will help illustrate the repercussions and possibilities of what your discovering?
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"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.

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#479765 - 09/10/17 12:55 PM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: Jim Wetzel]
John Fitzgerald Online   content


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 1575
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
It's very interesting. I have been following it. Could the same technique be used to raise a batch of albino channel catfish? I have the adults in my pond.
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#479767 - 09/10/17 01:21 PM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 291
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
"How to" can be improved by understanding "how it" happens. Understanding biology of systems / ponds you are interested in can help make informed decisions in how to manage. I have managed ponds quite a bit and many are for recreational fishing purposes, like more here. The process is a lot more rewarding when you can conceptualize what is going on at the level of individual animals and how it interacts with their life cycle.

Petroleum products I use are not derived from dinosaurs, at least not on any appreciable level.
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Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri

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#479769 - 09/10/17 01:57 PM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: Jim Wetzel]
sprkplug Offline
Ambassador
Lunker

Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 6943
Loc: Freedom, Indiana
Originally Posted By: Jim Wetzel
"How to" can be improved by understanding "how it" happens.
Petroleum products I use are not derived from dinosaurs, at least not on any appreciable level.


Absolutely agree. My trouble seems to be in finding an audience willing to expand upon their awareness in the manner I envision.

Here's the curiously re-badged / re-named dinosaur I was referring to. https://www.sinclairoil.com/dino-history
_________________________
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.

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#479772 - 09/10/17 02:50 PM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 291
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
I am more than a little interested in dinosaurs which could further derail site if entertained. I keep a few as pets studying their every move.
_________________________
Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri

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#479773 - 09/10/17 03:11 PM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: Jim Wetzel]
sprkplug Offline
Ambassador
Lunker

Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 6943
Loc: Freedom, Indiana
grin grin
_________________________
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.

Top
#479775 - 09/10/17 03:45 PM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: Jim Wetzel]
ewest Offline
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Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 18987
Loc: Miss.
Originally Posted By: Jim Wetzel
"How to" can be improved by understanding "how it" happens. Understanding biology of systems / ponds you are interested in can help make informed decisions in how to manage.


Jim I have been preaching this for years. The more you know/understand the better choices you can make.

I am definitely interested.
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#479778 - 09/10/17 05:04 PM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 291
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
Good. That will justify effort to get photographing system for small stuff back online this week. Images so far are using a little scope I purchased for about $150.

I would call these guys mesolarvae. Rays coming yet tail still heterocercal. I can get fish at this size (not saying age on purpose) to take feed. About 15 days post-exodus (after leaving the nest).



_________________________
Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri

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#479798 - 09/11/17 11:06 AM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: Jim Wetzel]
peachgrower Offline


Registered: 07/02/16
Posts: 352
Loc: Nashville, AR
I too am very interested. I just do not have anything to add so I do not post. I just check it everyday for updated pictures on the little guys, and a description of where they are at in their lives. I agree on knowing where it came from will change your decisions later on.

This is a very simplified case, but when I was teaching ag (FFA), when I was about to fit a show calf for a show, knowing how the calves hair was taken care of directly effected what I was going to try to do with it. When you had 20 or 30 calves at a fair, time is VERY important, if a calf had not been taken care of correctly the months before the show, I wasn't about to try to spend an hour or so fitting it, when it would not effect the end result any. Now one that had been taken care of correctly and had its hair trained, well I would spend the time. If I spent that amount of time on every calf...well, I would have still been fitting after the fair was over. lol

Watching this has really prompted me to want to try to fix up a better area for spawning before next spring. Love the pics and info Jim...most over my head, but I'm really enjoying it. Thanks for taking the time!
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#480165 - 09/19/17 09:38 PM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 291
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
Fry still alive and growing albeit slowly. They are on the cusp of being fry now, nearly a week behind full siblings of same brood being kept indoors.

I couple dragonfly nymphs also present and likely getting a couple of the fish. Midges likely dominated the dragonfly's fare. Still too many fish as they will over run forage base soon. Need to cull about three quarters of them as all I want is between 10 and 20. This late summer has been exceptional for the tank water temperature. Normally temperatures would consistently be in the lower 60's by now yet we are staying in the upper 60's to lower 70's. Still below optimal
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Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri

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#480184 - 09/20/17 10:25 AM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: Jim Wetzel]
peachgrower Offline


Registered: 07/02/16
Posts: 352
Loc: Nashville, AR
Jim, Is the temperature the only factor effecting growth of the brood in inside compared to outside? What is optimal water temperature?? Mid 70's of what? Are both tanks getting the same forage?

Would love to see a video of the little guys. Do they stay in a ball or do they separate from one another at this stage?

Thanks for keeping us in the loop!! Was wondering yesterday how it was going.
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#480191 - 09/20/17 01:26 PM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: peachgrower]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 291
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
Originally Posted By: peachgrower
Jim, Is the temperature the only factor effecting growth of the brood in inside compared to outside? What is optimal water temperature?? Mid 70's of what? Are both tanks getting the same forage?

Would love to see a video of the little guys. Do they stay in a ball or do they separate from one another at this stage?

Thanks for keeping us in the loop!! Was wondering yesterday how it was going.


Temperature, photoperiod, stocking density, water column characteristics and forage all differ between groups. Optimal temperature range for larval thru fry stages not worked out to my knowledge. Extrapolating from adult Northern BG may not be wise. We shot for mid to upper 70'S F when rearing fish for research purposes where rapid growth desired.

I have been having trouble making videos. Most of the fish were culled so as to reduce labor and needs for brine shrimp indoors. Camera does not focus on them well from above and underwater camera is on drugs when used for very small fish.

The larval through fry stages do form a large school although is not as tight as you would see with larval LMB. It is nothing like the schools you see with the larger catfish species that appear to roll as a ball while feeding. In cylindrical tanks when well fed, the small fish form a polarized torus (donut). When hungry they move about with a more random directions they face as looking for eats. After first feeding indoors, the torus is maintained for the balance of the work day. The fish in the outdoor tank are seldom so well fed to more constantly moving about. Distribution still not random.

Larval stages differ markedly between sunfish species and even between subspecies. Differences I think are critical to why some species are particular to some habitats and not others. A huge area of research possible with this.

The behavior discussion could go on for a very long time so will stop.
_________________________
Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri

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#480194 - 09/20/17 03:17 PM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 291
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
Something just happened with larger fry developing of the indoor system. Sometime since yesterday morning they started to clump up much tighter in small groups. I associate this with the transition from being highly mobile and pelagic to being more sedentary and associated with structure. With some sunfishes this can be associated with adoption of home ranges. No pecking order action yet but that is not far off. Fry about 2/3" total length and starting to get chunky when looking at them from above.
_________________________
Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri

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#480203 - 09/21/17 07:02 AM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
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Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 13130
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
Do you expect the pecking order to include predation like bass fingerlings?
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It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP

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#480204 - 09/21/17 07:29 AM Re: Breeding Bluegill In A 400-gallon Stock Tank [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 291
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
Not generally. The formation of the small shoals requires a mechanism to disperse surviving fry. Even with bass I have watched that go through same changes at much larger size, intrabrood cannibalism is not the rule. Age-1 bass and larger sunfish generally knock the age-0 brood back low enough that cannibalism does not kick in withing the age-0. The artificial thing you have with breeding bass in a pond without predators is where I see the intrabrood cannibalism.

In a tank setting where size disparity is extreme you can get cannibalism. Under those conditions you typically have additional loss in value due to more than cannibalism.

If you mean predation by taken on larger prey items, then yes, that is point where I expect the fish to take on bigger stuff as well. They still have diet dominated by zooplankton that is taken as it floats past cover patches the fry associate with. I think the more dominant fry in a given group can direct more attention to foraging while subordinates have to avoid getting displaced as they forage making foraging less efficient. Spotted Bass and SMB do much the same until they split into their exclusive little territories they advertise with their tricolored tails and parr marks.

I have seen LMB do similar but only the lateral stripe is obliterated that I can see easily. LMB more likely to keep moving about in little shoals.


Edited by Jim Wetzel (09/21/17 05:58 PM)
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