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#480020 09/16/17 12:50 PM
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Got a new idea today and begun to put it into action. As many of you know, winter is cold in Wisconsin, too cold for fish to grow. So I decided to attempt to over winter a few test fry in a 55 gallon aquarium and release them in spring. I plan on this increasing growth of the fry compared to their pond counterparts. I have already captured 7 tests subjects and I just hope the damn angelfish don't eat them.

Any suggestions or ideas?


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Bloodworms and hydrated pellets. You can run pellets through a coffee bean grinder if needed for smaller crumbles to get them started. I like to put pellet crumbles in a wire mesh strainer and shake it back and forth to clean out the dust and small peices. Your angle fish might end up hogging the food though.



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Thanks I'll see if I can find some.


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In an aquarium setting my preference is to get them on a diet formulated for cichlids. Starting size of fish is important and potentially a major challenge if even large breeder angels can eat them. Post a picture so we can we condition.

Hand-paint BG I started with back in July were at least 2" and in good weight so could go straight on a carnivore cichlid pellet. Some smaller fry less than 1" and good health got a short pulse of freeze dried blood worms before going on to small granules. Shorty's hydration approach works very well. When I hydrate pellets only enough water needed to make the moist is used and it made fresh daily. I have a plastic eye-dropper to mix the feed and transfer it to tank.

If your fish are in poor condition, then consider using some super tasty like freeze-dried krill (ground) or frozen blood worms. Really poor condition fish might even better be treated with freshly hatched baby brine shrimp.

This week I will feed training some Coppernose BG, maybe we can compare notes. Mine are still on live baby brine shrimp.


If fish do even half descent then they could be pushing 6" by spring.


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Originally Posted By: Jim Wetzel


If fish do even half decent then they could be pushing 6" by spring.


When the BG get about 3.5" - 4", they will nip the fins off the angelfish.

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Attached some pics of food and a few of the fry. Not 100% sure that they are BG but it doesn't matter but guesses are welcome. Is the food I have good enough? Fry are about 1 inch long.
Also, I'd like to know any ideas to separate the tank. As in, when the BG get too big and start harassing the other fish I'd like to do something. I was thinking some sort of net to cut the tank in half. Ideas?


Plan can always be aborted for the next month ish.

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Last edited by ThePondDragon; 09/16/17 08:31 PM.

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Personally, I would put the BG in a tank by themselves, 100 gallon or larger, and, if it's in the house, it won't need a heater in the winter if you keep the house at about 67-68 degrees or more.

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Great idea but another tank is not an option for me. If you think splitting the tank won't work that's ok I'll just put them back.


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You can relatively divide a 55-gallon aquarium using egg crate lens material cut to fit. I would divide tank in half. To suppress social problems, stock more bluegill. I can keep forty 4" BG in a 55-gallon assuming aggressive filtration and frequent water changes. Keeping density high will suppress breeding issues when temperature maintenance for anglefish realized. Bluegill will get urge to breed even during winter if temperature and photoperiod appropriate.


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Originally Posted By: ThePondDragon
Attached some pics of food and a few of the fry. Not 100% sure that they are BG but it doesn't matter but guesses are welcome. Is the food I have good enough? Fry are about 1 inch long.
Also, I'd like to know any ideas to separate the tank. As in, when the BG get too big and start harassing the other fish I'd like to do something. I was thinking some sort of net to cut the tank in half. Ideas?


Plan can always be aborted for the next month ish.



Your sunfish are Green Sunfish. Care regimen same except for jumping issues later. Feeds OK but get fish onto pellets of similar brands quickly. Flake feeds and dried insect are a lot of buck for you bang.


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Alright, so if I understand you correctly, separate the tank with egg crate, put more BG/SF in, get pellet food to feed them, and clean the tank often.
Also, I don't quite understand, do you mean more BG will stop breeding or stop stress from not being able to breed?

I'm not surprised that they are GSF but I'll hope at least one of them is a BG or a PS.

Thanks for the help.


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Originally Posted By: ThePondDragon
Alright, so if I understand you correctly, separate the tank with egg crate, put more BG/SF in, get pellet food to feed them, and clean the tank often.
Also, I don't quite understand, do you mean more BG will stop breeding or stop stress from not being able to breed?

I'm not surprised that they are GSF but I'll hope at least one of them is a BG or a PS.

Thanks for the help.


Get them on feed of any sort that it not live, then get them onto pellets. Pellets can be your start if feed training goes well. Aggressive water quality management needed as I keep my sunfish when shooting for growth without reproduction.


Successful reproduction is not needed to complicate tank culturing sunfish. When fish are in good condition, temperature is between 72 F and 82 F, and photoperiod is has more than 14 hour light per 24-hour cycle it is hard to keep BG, Green Sunfish and PS from feeling the need to breed. I have bred many sunfish species in aquariums and ponds and it is too easy. So much so as to be problematic.

Several approaches can be used to suppress breeding. One is sorting fish by sex which your fish are still too small to do visually. Another is maintaining stocking density so high males cannot establish their nesting territories from which they launch attacks on tank mates. More fish in relatively tight confines also works to suppress formation of hierarchy. I have a dozen 75-gallon tanks where each is loaded with either BG, Green Sunfish, or F1 Green Sunfish x Orange Spotted Sunfish. Fish range in length from 3 to 5 inches. Stocking density is pushed to fish cannot single out a tank mate because they can recognize it. The sunfish are like chickens, they can remember only so many faces, thereafter they slip into a schooling mode where aggression is less of an issue.

Catch a bunch and lay them in shallow water in white container, then photograph. We may be able to find PS and BG that way.


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Found this fish food online. Seems to be the only one I'll have access to easily. It is 36% protein.

Will attempt to capture a few more today. Also will be cleaning the tank so I have the option to separate the fry from the other fish. I should have mentioned earlier that there are other smaller minnows in the tank that will be vulnerable to the BG as they get bigger.
How many is enough? Should I shoot for 15, 20, more?

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I have overwintered a small number of RES in an aquarium several times and never had them attempt to breed. I have kept the water temps around 70 degrees and the aquarium lights set on a maximum 12 hour run (photo period).

I would check a Pet store for frozen bloodworms and small cichlid pellets to get started. I like to use a shot glass and a little bit of aquarium water to thaw the bloodworms before putting them in the tank. Sunfish really go nuts over bloodworms and it is a good way to get them used to being fed, start feeding them hydrated pellets as soon as you can.



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The aquarium grade fish feeds with 36% crude protein and other wire formulated for either carnivore or omnivore will do fine. Twenty fish started at about 1" also good.

Shorty, to get a different experience with the RES bump up temperature and photoperiod. Also provide a little live eats like meal worms making so fish starting coming up to your hands. That level of tameness help acclimate fish to tank so they more completely settle in.


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Added 9 more fry today. Caught 1 big 2-3 inch fingerling but I put him in a cage so he wouldn't eat the other fish. May release him but that shows how good my YOY growth rates are. Grand total excluding the fingerling now is 16 fry. I may stop here as this is a good enough number for me.

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Picture a wee bit fuzzy for good ID. Biggest and at least several others Green Sunfish. You may have a PS or two. None scream BG to my eyes.


To facilitate ID, I place fish in a flat pan with just enough water to cover them while they are laying on their sides. It keeps several in focus at same time.

Last edited by Jim Wetzel; 09/17/17 05:54 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Jim Wetzel
Shorty, to get a different experience with the RES bump up temperature and photoperiod. Also provide a little live eats like meal worms making so fish starting coming up to your hands. That level of tameness help acclimate fish to tank so they more completely settle in.


RES go nuts on bloodworms poured out of a shot glass which will acclimate them to the tank and get them feeding right away. The ones out in my shop were feeding vigorously within two hours of being put in tbe tank and it was a two hour drive home to get them here. I have been keeping water temps out in my shop tank at 80 degrees all summer. I also use a shot glass to dip a little tank water to hydrate feed daily. I actually had a small 2" RES jump into the glass earlier this summer while getting water to hydrate feed. I also have to watch my fingers at the surface of the tank as they swarm and nibble. Occasionally I'll have a 4" to 5" RES jump out hit my finger as I'm dropping hydrated pellets on the surface. Daily tank cleaning along with a water change has made them very tame.



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Originally Posted By: Shorty
Originally Posted By: Jim Wetzel
Shorty, to get a different experience with the RES bump up temperature and photoperiod. Also provide a little live eats like meal worms making so fish starting coming up to your hands. That level of tameness help acclimate fish to tank so they more completely settle in.


RES go nuts on bloodworms poured out of a shot glass which will acclimate them to the tank and get them feeding right away. The ones out in my shop were feeding vigorously within two hours of being put in tbe tank and it was a two hour drive home to get them here. I have been keeping water temps out in my shop tank at 80 degrees all summer. I also use a shot glass to dip a little tank water to hydrate feed daily. I actually had a small 2" RES jump into the glass earlier this summer while getting water to hydrate feed. I also have to watch my fingers at the surface of the tank as they swarm and nibble. Occasionally I'll have a 4" to 5" RES jump out hit my finger as I'm dropping hydrated pellets on the surface. Daily tank cleaning along with a water change has made them very tame.


That is what I strive for when tank spawning. The fish show little or no fear even while I loom over tank. Try adding a bowl 2/3 filled with gravel into corner of tank. Size bowl so diameter 1.5X diameter of largest male.

Can you sex the RES by looking at them?


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Originally Posted By: Jim Wetzel
Can you sex the RES by looking at them?


I am pretty sure that I can, I would have to pull them out and get a good look at them individually to be sure, anything over 5" should be easy to sex. I do know that the single largest RES (7"+) in the tank is female. I looked her over good when I moved them into a bigger a tank back in July when she was 5". All of these were 1-1/2" to 2" when I picked them up in May with the exception of one 3" RES which is now the 7" female I mentioned above. I do have a 75 gallon tank in the house that I can overwinter a few RES in.

Last edited by Shorty; 09/17/17 09:26 PM.


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You have much needed to do a little overwinter breeding. Can you partition off about 1/3 of tank for largest and most intensely colored male? Prior to actual breeding mode I look for bright red opercular tabs.


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See following.

http://www.nanfa.org/articles/pdf/BantamSunfishspawning.pdf


My undergraduate student led second effort.
http://www.nanfa.org/articles/pdf/Warmouthspawning.pdf



BG, RES, GSF, and PS are the same in a tank setting.


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Night time update
I have released the large GSF due to stress it may cause other fish and I'd prefer to have more similarly sized fish.
I have at least 1 fry eating flakes so far. He is the largest and healthiest of the bunch. The other fry are oblivious to feeding time.

Is there a way to get them to eat? I assume they will get better with time and size. It may be because they are under transplant stress and will get smart and feed over time.


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Seeing one tank mate will be a strong motivator. Assuming fish where not too dinged during capture and introduction process, they will come on to feed within a day or so. Green Sunfish, PS, and BG have been the easiest natives for me to feed train.

I like to apply small amounts multiple times per day. Fish I keep in home are trained by popping with food as soon as I get up, just before going of to work, after getting home and couple more times before going to bed. Having light on at all times during feed training is typical way I do it indoors, otherwise the complete darkness realized indoors causes stress in its own right.

Amount of feed applied is not enough to consume in five minutes. Rather it needs to be gone in 30 seconds or less. Consider blocking direct light over section of tank housing your sunfish until feed training complete.

Since many are Green Sunfish, start thinking about how to prevent jumping from tank if lid is not already tight.


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I do have a decently secure lid. It may not be able to completely prevent fry from jumping but as they get bigger all holes are too small.
I'm hoping my tropical fish can help teach the fry although they were never good about eating either.
Thank you for all the help.


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