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John,
Did you send him a photo of the tag from that bag?


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No, but I sent him the lot numbers and the blue tag number, plus the bag photo. He replied and didn't ask anything further. I'll send him a tag photo asap.

Edit: I sent the tag pic, and also posted it on here with my other two pics in my earlier reply #479673.

I may just be blowing smoke, I don't really know. But the product looks different from the verbal descriptions and some other pics. The formula may have changed, IDK.

Last edited by John Fitzgerald; 09/08/17 02:49 PM.
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Boy, the picture of the guy on the back of that bag sure looks familiar.


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Excellent! I'll stay in touch with them. I want to hear the answers as well.

Then formula hasn't changed. Neither has the process of making that feed. Something is amiss, and we need to know. I've been using MVP and it's been totally consistent from here. Same plant makes it, so it can't be an issue from feed being made at a different location. It can't be ingredients, because they're really picky about that. So, I'm as interested as you are, maybe more.

It will take Dr. Schlegel a few days because he's got several different research points to investigate, from the bottom up.

Last edited by Bob Lusk; 09/08/17 04:02 PM.

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I am going to go ahead and keep feeding it, because the MVP and a few pounds of CC pellets is the only fish food I have, and it's only about seven weeks or so until end of feeding here.

Sounds like Bassmaster61 has the same lot of feed I have, with the same appearance.

I didn't want to make waves about this...almost sorry I asked in the first place.

Last edited by John Fitzgerald; 09/08/17 06:23 PM. Reason: added sentence
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You are not making negative waves. If we are helping Purina discover a flaw in their system/process they will (or should) be happy we are bringing it to their attention. You don't stay in business for as long as Purina by disappointing customers. BM61.


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Bassmaster61: PM sent

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Originally Posted By: Bob Lusk
I sent an email to the top Purina guys to review this thread. Dr. Michael Schlegel replied:

"The product should be dark brown to black and have 9 different sized particles.
 
To follow-up with the plant, it would help to know where the product was purchased and provide a picture of the product, bag, and tag.  It is helpful to have the lot number.  There should be a blue or green sticker on the bag with a 3 digit number followed by 17.  Given this information, we can look into this further at the plant."

He also asked to communicate with John Fitzgerald, so I've emailed and brought the them together.

We'll follow up on this thread so everyone can see the results.
 


That is what my MVP always looked like. I just have trouble getting it from my dealer.


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I find Purina to be consistent with their inconsistency. wink

My first "what the??" moment:

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=304252&page=all

The final straw, no more Purina for me:

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=412242&page=1


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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We used to raise show rabbits and and had major problems with Purina feed. Went around in circles with them to no avail . lost expensive breeders , wound up dropping them and to this day will not buy ANY product from them.

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If I had read the previous threads that sprkplug mentioned, I probably would not have mentioned any inconsistency in the feed. Seems nothing was done before. My local farmers coop also says it takes some effort to get it.

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I'm surprised Mr. Lusk is comfortable having his face on the bag

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canyoncreek's comment above made me bristle a little bit...but that doesn't matter.
I won't apologize for any company's behavior, except mine. And, I won't make any excuses for Purina Mills.

The threads sprkplg offered above are true. The first one (five years ago, by the way), Purina switched production from one of their mills to another of their mills. They figured out there was a production problem, and then they fixed it. It had nothing to do with ingredients. It was painful for all involved, and then they took care of it. It didn't take long for them to solve it.

The second thread also shared a problem. That's when the company sold the mill where AquaMax had been made since 2012, and the production team decided (without telling anyone else through the company) that they would only produce their core products at the remaining extrusion mill. That eliminated fish food from production. By that point, inventory was gone, and Purina reps (once they figured out what was going on), scrambled and found a private mill that would contract to make the feed. So, supply was solved, but even though the recipe was the same, the manufacturing process wasn't. That cost them some customers. That was also about the time Optimal came onto the scene and quite a few folks on this forum switched. Purina solved this production issue by changing plants again. There's been no other issues until this one (that I'm aware of). In this case, there's now a fact-finding mission to figure out what's going on, to see if there's a problem or not. If there is, I expect Purina to figure it out and fix it. If not, I expect to hear about that, too.

When I agreed to endorse their AquaMax products several years ago, I'd grown some outstanding fish with those products. Countless numbers of two pound bluegills, some three pound + bluegills, thousands of feed-trained largemouth bass and hybrid stripers.

It does get a little frustrating to have to deal with problems and inconsistency. At the same time, they've always addressed any issues I've confronted them with. (The two that sprkplg shared above are the two biggest ones, and I've not been real nice about it when I talk to them...I expect quality and consistency).

I expect them to find out the facts about John Alexander's issue as stated above, and I expect to find out the truth and share it on this thread.

I also expect that fish food to do what it is supposed to do.

I won't excuse mistakes. I will understand that we are dealing with a company full of people who do jobs. If the whole chain works, then we, as consumers, get what we expect. If not, we have a choice.

Many people on this forum haven chosen to use different brands of fish food. That's fine with me. I happen to still believe in Purina and have a degree of loyalty, because I've been working with them for 22 years to help develop the best fish foods they can build. If they stop making mistakes, we'll all be thrilled. That means I won't have to sit down and spend this time answering for them. If they don't stop making mistakes, but address each one and offer a legitimate response, I'll maintain my loyalty. If they make mistakes and try to excuse them or ignore them, there will be a different story.

So, I expect to hear from upper management at the company about this issue and we'll decide from there. I don't expect them to offer their thoughts on this forum, but I do expect them to tell me (and John Alexander) and we'll share it on this thread.

My parting shot is this...when we all stop making mistakes, I'll be much less tolerant of others mistakes.


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I'm sure this will just be an issue of mislabled bags. They probably changed production run and someone forgot to change the labels.

Bob, I'm glad you lent your mug to their bag, as I'm sure you will try and make sure it is the best product they can produce. If not, at least we have someone with pull to have a voice for us. Keeping high quality at AM, makes all other producers keep up as well. Competition is a great thing.


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I have not had any problem with Aquamax for the two years I have been feeding it, other than at times it is hard for me to come by it. Nor have I had any problems with some Sportsman Choice (Cargill) or Optimal. All, as far as I can tell, appear to be what is listed on the tag and the fish gobble all of it down.

Right now I am feeding 36% Sportsman Choice and 32% Purina sportfish (with a small amount of Optimal and Optimal Jr mixed in for the smaller fish) because Tractor Supply keeps the cheaper feeds on hand (though now I have bought their entire supply other than a broken bag) and I ran out of Aquamax MVP a week ago even though my last order to my dealer is 3 weeks old now.

I like MVP. I like it better than mixing AM 600, 500 and a little 400 like I used to. I wish I had it now but I feed what I can get.

I would just like to have it available a little earlier in the season and on a more consistent basis.

I give everybody involved a little slack because I realize hardly anyone in my area feeds fish and the few that do likely mostly purchase 32% catfish food. As far as I know, the two Purina dealers I have dealt with, I am the one and only Aquamax purchaser they have ever had. So it is not surprising they do not want to get stuck with a bunch of stale inventory. I usually order 2 to 4 weeks ahead of my needs, and still do not always get what I want. I just need more people in my area interested in feeding quality feed.

Last edited by snrub; 09/11/17 04:50 PM.

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When I began feeding aq500 I remember thinking that I had made it to the big time. I was feeding a premium product, the same stuff that the pros on pondboss were using. It seemed to offer a legitimacy to my efforts to grow huge bluegills.

And to be fair, the AQ absolutely grew my fish. The results were incredible. But as my fish continued to grow, I began noticing something I had never seen before. My fish were fat...
As in cut one open, and there was a layer of gelatinous material surrounding their organs. Then others began noticing this with their fish also. Then there began the talk of shortened lifespans,liver damage, etc. To my knowledge nothing concrete or substantial ever came from this talk, so I don't know if there's anything to it. But the seed was planted in my mind, and when the other issues with product consistency and availability reared their heads, that's all it took for me to switch.

And I agree with Bob in that this was about the time Optimal appeared on the market. I had been feeding Skretting, and just wasn't satisfied with it. The optimal has my full attention at the moment. I absolutely love what it's doing for my fish, and the personal attention to customer service has won me over. I never had that with Purina.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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That was a problem early on, but one of my favorite things about Purina has been their attention to nutrition. When Dr. Mark Griffin was their nutritionist, he spent quite a bit of time working on that formula to avoid fat and organ issues. He changed the amount of starch (have to have starch to extrude the pellet) and the amounts and types of fats, along with a strong vitamin package to avoid issues of fat. Before he figured it out, we had some fish pushing past 150 Wr. Those fish were obese. After he made a few adjustments, we started regularly seeing fish staying around 110-125, which is more to my liking. While a largemouth bass at 150 Wr looks amazing, its gut is full of a greasy, white fat. Keep in mind, I do think fish need to go into winter with a healthy store of fat, so they don't metabolize muscle tissue. They'll use that fat for energy, even though they are cold-blooded. Then, going into spring, they have developed eggs, didn't lose much mass and have a headstart for the next season. To me, that's an important part of feeding fish. Another thing I learned as we use AquaMax products...the importance of adequate feeding. My clients have a tendency to overfeed. Even if the fish eat it, there's only so much food they need to keep them on a healthy upward growth pace.
My thoughts...


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It took six weeks last year for me to get a bag of AM Grower 400, and it was $65 before tax (shocked). The Tractor Supply Game Fish Chow here is inexpensive, but seven months old, and I don't want stale food. Only thing I can get locally that's fresh is 32% CC pellets. Sure, I can easily order Optimal, and have obtained several bags (both BG and BG Jr) with no problem, but it's expensive, comparatively to MVP. The 50 lb AM MVP bag I recently bought was $38.
Apparently, I may be the only buyer of MVP in this corner of the state, according to the Co-Op. They transferred that bag from their Mena, AR store, and it took over a week. Maybe I need to order late this fall for next spring, maybe a group buy with some other relatively nearby forum members?

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For clarity, here are some guidelines about ordering fish food.
Purina is a manufacturer. They sell to dealers/feed stores. Purina sales reps work with their dealers to provide product on a timely basis. Most of the dealers are independent, with no contractual arrangement with any of their manufacturers, meaning they are free to buy and sell anything they want. Some are loyal to their manufacturers, others are not. Feed stores have core business that receives most of their focus. Fish food isn't part of the core for most dealers, so they aren't likely to educate themselves about the products. That's why buyers need to know what they want.
It's easy for the dealer to blame the manufacturer for a delayed order. But, Purina's trucks run regularly. Their distribution is nationwide. If a dealer orders it, and the distribution facility has it, the dealer will get it on the next truck. On some occasions, the distribution facility has to receive product from the mill, and that can add a week.
Purina receives orders from their dealers weekly. If the product is in stock, they ship it on the next truck. But, here's something important for you to know...if the product isn't in stock, the dealer need to order it again, the next week. That's how Purina Mills works. They don't keep any "back orders". Their dealers know that...at least they should.
So, when I hear a story about it taking three weeks, or a dealer says, "We can't get it", I know that's a dealer not being straight up with their customers, because they probably didn't order the product, or don't know how Purina works.
If you want Purina products, you've got to use "push" marketing. That means there's a demand and the dealer needs to respond to it. "Pull" marketing is when a manufacturer urges their dealer to sell the inventory. Purina doesn't employ "pull" marketing with some of their specialty feeds...and fish food is one of those feeds. If we want to buy it, we have to find a Purina dealer (which is easy to do) and then "push" them to order the product. They don't want to order a product and sit on it. They want it to move. Fish food is expensive, and has an odor to it. Typical dealers won't have it in stock...so we have to push them to get it for us, and then pick it up. When you hear a dealer make excuses about why they can't get a particular fish food, understand that's what it is, excuses. I don't like it, but sometimes we have to stay on a dealer to get what we want. Once they get into a routine with a consumer, they'll become more consistent.
Every Purina dealer can order any Purina fish food product, if they want to, and understand the system.


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I have to say, the Purina dealer I use in a small town in west-central Illinois told me it would take at most two weeks to get MVP. They receive a Purina shipment every week and the two orders I have placed were both at the dealer the next week. I am very pleased with their service. They call me and let me know when my order arrives. However, my MVP pellets were all the same size in my first order and I have not yet opened a bag from my second order. Maybe I just got lucky and stumbled onto the right dealer who doesn't mind small orders for products they do not stock. BM61.


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The local dealer for Purina here is Farmers Cooperative. I am told the local stores cannot order Purina fish foods directly (corporate policy). A couple of their other stores can but both are 60 to 100 miles away. The local store manager has to cajole one of the other stores into ordering the product, then, once it's in, do a store to store transfer. It's a hassle for them, and they aren't enthusiastic about doing it. If the outlying store fails to order, they have to be called again. That's how it can take weeks and weeks. If I don't find a good supply chain in the future, I am likely stuck with ordering Optimal or feeding catfish pellets, which the BG do eat along with the CC. The local TSC has the Game Fish Chow fresh in the spring (March). They get a pallet and don't replenish until it's sold. They don't end up selling it all, so it gets old and stale by now.

So, someone who wants to feed fish in this area is kind of stuck.

Most people whom I have talked to around here who have stocked CC off the fish truck just feed dog food by hand, and not even every day. I continue to be amazed by their lack of knowledge about the existence of dedicated fish foods.

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I'll be honest, if I were raising the fish in my pond for the dinner table, I wouldn't feed anything but 32% catfish feed. Cheap, and easily obtainable.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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John, piecing together information from both you and Bob I'm starting to get a picture of how the two dealers I have dealt with work.

I did a large early season order from one of several Coops last spring. I got the order fine in a few weeks time. Funny thing is, the coop I picked it up at had to get it throuh a sister coop. I suspect the master coop of the group does the ordering for several stores. But I have to drive 20 miles to pick this feed up.

So the rest of last year and this year I have been using a small mom and pop feed store 5 miles from me that caters mostly to surburban farmers (whereas the coops are mostly commercial farm oriented). They are very happy to get the feed for me and seem to be eager to do it.

But I run into weird problems. I do not know if it is at my dealers end, or the warehouse end. For example I ordered 6 bags MVP one time and the route truck dropped off LMB. I took one bag of the LMB to play with, the dealer returned the LMB and got my MVP. Another time I ordered MVP and the route truck dropped off AM600. Store reordered the MVP and in the mean while I fed some of the AM600. Got some MVP in but only 3 of the 4 bags I ordered. Went on vacation and told daughter (who was feeding the fish for me) to check with the store as I had ordered more MVP. They never got it in so told her to get the AM600 they had left and order some more. They got 1 of 4 bags of MVP in (I assumed the warehouse was out). It has been 3 weeks since I last ordered and still no MVP. What Bob said may come into play. Maybe the dealer only ordered once. Or maybe the warehouse is out or who knows.

Meanwhile I have fed 5 25# bags of the Sportsman Choice feed and have one 50# bag of the Purina cheap multi species stuff I am working on now. And Tractor Supply locally is out now (one other person besides myself must have bought a bag of what they had) so it will be a 30 mile trip north to another TSC if I want more of it.

Just weird stuff. All the dog, cat, goat, rabbit, chicken, cattle, hog and whatever feed one needs. And even 32% catfish food from multiple sources still available and I may be down to that from now till the first of December when water temps typically drop to 50. But finding good fish food locally is like looking for hens teeth in my area. I could always go to Optimal and I may or mix it with CC food.

Seems like in todays age it shoukd be simpler.

Last edited by snrub; 09/12/17 06:56 PM.

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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
I'll be honest, if I were raising the fish in my pond for the dinner table, I wouldn't feed anything but 32% catfish feed. Cheap, and easily obtainable.


Sprkplug my fish (to my satisfaction) did great my first year on 32% catffsh food.

Then PBF convinced me I was doing the wrong thing.

So I dutifully switched to better feed.

I have never had any problem with my fish not wanting to eat anything I have thrown out there (except maybe a fishing lure......LOL)

Edit: I only now feed about 3# per acre or less so my fish are only getting feed in a suplimental way. I'm not particularly going for trophies, although I would not turn one down, but rather large numbers of really nice catchable fish.

Last edited by snrub; 09/12/17 07:01 PM.

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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
I'll be honest, if I were raising the fish in my pond for the dinner table, I wouldn't feed anything but 32% catfish feed. Cheap, and easily obtainable.


I am only raising the CC for table fare. The CNBG, I am feeding to get the largest possible BG. Then, maybe some of them might become table fare.

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