Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Shotgun01, Dan H, Stipker, LunkerHunt23, Jeanjules
18,451 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,899
Posts557,056
Members18,451
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,407
ewest 21,474
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,110
Who's Online Now
15 members (jpsdad, Donatello, Layne, Freg, Sunil, tws3, rjackson, jludwig, Shorthose, DenaTroyer, Theo Gallus, Tinylake, catscratch, Brandon Larson, Dave Davidson1), 635 guests, and 178 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#478719 08/20/17 08:57 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 411
Likes: 3
OP Offline
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 411
Likes: 3
I can find almost nothing on these guys here. They are the only fish my herp pond has and as a kid they were one of the funnest fish to catch. They are also suitable for making sterile hybrids. Anyone manage them in their ponds?


Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,952
Likes: 184
P
Offline
P
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,952
Likes: 184
I put a few 8" warmouth in my puddle and haven't heard from them since although did catch what I thought was a cross..... beautiful fish

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 411
Likes: 3
OP Offline
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 411
Likes: 3
Try fishing at your feet in water 2" to 6" deep with lots of plant cover right at the surface. They do really well in habitats where the shallows are extensive.

Those in my pond also work the open waters because of no competition.


Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,952
Likes: 184
P
Offline
P
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,952
Likes: 184
Will try it .... they are one of my fav fish.... love to catch on topwater....

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 411
Likes: 3
OP Offline
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 411
Likes: 3
They also like to hang out in muskrat and beaver burrows. One of our livestock watering ponds was also good at supporting Warmouth in the brick lined area where the pump was located. That spot was like a cave. They are also partial to using cans and hollow logs.

What is really cool it their capacity for changes colors. In my experience not other sunfish come close to the Warmouth's ability to change with back ground.


Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,930
Likes: 2
R
RER Offline
Offline
R
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,930
Likes: 2
you mentioned sterile hybrids, Hybrid with what?
I have a buddy that has a small pond with WM and CNBG, it also has lots and lots of hybrids of the two. Are CNBG x WM hybrids sterile?


Goofing off is a slang term for engaging in recreation or an idle pastime while obligations of work or society are neglected........... Wikipedia
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 411
Likes: 3
OP Offline
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 411
Likes: 3
Hybrids I have made involving WM (Warmouth Sunfish). Female parent first in crosses below.

WM x NBG
WM x RES
WM x GSF (Green Sunfish)
WM x PSS (Pumpkinseed Sunfish)
WM x RSS (Red-Spotted Sunfish)
WM X OSF (Orange-Spotted Sunfish)
GSF x WM

None of the hybrids were noted to produce offspring in ponds which I think is most sensitive test. Test involved placing quality adults in ponds devoid of competition at beginning of breeding season in April. No offspring detected the following fall even though fish stocked persisted. Very little sign of nesting detected. The crosses involving NBG and RES commingled with female NBG and RES also failed to produce offspring.


Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
Interesting

Childers found in

Hybridization of Four Species of Sunfishes (Centrarchidae)
WILLIAM F. CHILDERS

Here are the sex ratios (percent male) that Childers got with various hybrid crosses. The male parent is listed first. There is some variation in the numbers from other studies

Redear X Bluegill 97 (3)
Bluegill X Redear 97
Redear X Green 69
Green X Redear 48
Bluegill X Green 97
Green X Bluegill 68 (2)
Redear X Warmouth 55
Bluegill X Warmouth 69 (2)
Green X Warmouth 16
Warmouth X Green 84





Bolnick and Near provided

" The only crosses with total inviability in
both directions are M. salmoides 3 (Ambloplites rupestrus,
Pomoxis annularis, or Pomoxis nigromaculatus) at 28.94 million
years, while 10 other crosses of that age have some
viability in one or both reciprocal directions (see online Appendix).
Centrarchids also retain nonzero viability and heterosis
for much longer than most other taxa."


All there is a difference in producing a fry and having it survive for a period of time up to viability in a pond. See below.

Childers
No hybrid type was significantly different from its maternal parent species in the percentage of zygotes that hatched; however, more than 90 percent of the WR and WB F1 hybrids were morphologically abnormal ( Fig. 1 and 2). Both WR and WB F1 hybrids exhibited high mortality between the hatching and swim-up fry stages. At the time the experiments were terminated, only 2 percent of the WR hybrids and 1 percent of the WB hybrids appeared to be morphologically normal. All of these morphologically normal appearing WR and WB F1 hybrid fry were very sluggish. When petri dishes containing these hybrid fry were tapped with a pencil, the fry responded with weak swimming movements or not at all, and it is very doubtful that any of these fry would have become free swimming. Fifty-five percent of the WG hybrid and 75 percent of the pure green sunfish zygotes developed into normal-appearing swim-up fry ( difference significant to 0.05 level). The WG hybrid swim-up fry appeared to be behaviorally normal. The remaining nine kinds of hybrids were not significantly different from their maternal parent species in the percentages that developed into normal swim-up fry.



Table 9.—The degree of viability of 16 different kinds of fishes produced by pairing gametes from red-ear sunfish, bluegills, green sunfish, and warmouths. Data from experiments Sl-S11 are combined.
Parent Species ----# of Eggs----% Hatched----% NormalFry
R x R ---------------512-----------39------------- 27
B x R--------------- 512---------- 41------------- 33
G x R--------------- 552---------- 46------------- 37
W x R--------------- 548---------- 321------------ 2**
B x B--------------- 681----------- 87------------ 75
R x B--------------- 742----------- 86------------ 83
G x B--------------- 639----------- 87------------ 69
W x B--------------- 699----------- 61--------------1
G x G--------------- 639----------- 78------------ 75
R x G--------------- 597----------- 80------------ 79
B x G--------------- 589----------- 73------------ 70
W x G--------------- 678----------- 76------------ 55
W x W--------------- 295----------- 58------------ 49
R x W--------------- 317----------- 62------------ 58
B x W--------------- 311----------- 58------------ 44
G x W--------------- 276----------- 62------------ 47

°R. = red-ear sunfish, B = bluegill, G = green sunfish, W = warmouth. tPercentage based on number of eggs at the time sperm and eggs were mixed together and the number that hatched. $Percentage based on number of eggs at the time sperm and eggs were mixed together and the number of morphologically normal-appearing fry. §More than 90 percent of these larvae were morphologically deformed. **These fry appeared morphologically normal, but all were behaviorally abnormal.

Last edited by ewest; 08/21/17 10:01 AM.















ewest #478775 08/21/17 09:51 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 411
Likes: 3
OP Offline
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 411
Likes: 3


I was aware of Childer's efforts and used them as a guide. I made the crosses I had more than once. Sex ratios not important other than both sexes needed to test fertility. Data presented above does NOT address fertility of hybrids. Some flat out needs to be repeated.

Sex ratios do not mean squat if only single mating's used. I am being forward on that because pseudo-replication has seriously degraded the validity of some of that science. Yet it keeps getting past forward without any scrutiny.




Last edited by Jim Wetzel; 08/21/17 10:23 AM.

Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
Jim see above I was in the middle of posting when you replied.
















Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 8
W
Offline
W
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 8
Originally Posted By: Jim Wetzel
Hybrids I have made involving WM (Warmouth Sunfish). Female parent first in crosses below.

WM x NBG
WM x RES
WM x GSF (Green Sunfish)
WM x PSS (Pumpkinseed Sunfish)
WM x RSS (Red-Spotted Sunfish)
WM X OSF (Orange-Spotted Sunfish)
GSF x WM

None of the hybrids were noted to produce offspring in ponds which I think is most sensitive test. Test involved placing quality adults in ponds devoid of competition at beginning of breeding season in April. No offspring detected the following fall even though fish stocked persisted. Very little sign of nesting detected. The crosses involving NBG and RES commingled with female NBG and RES also failed to produce offspring.

Just searched up this thread. I'm new and just learning a lot of this. I'm interested in trying to raise some hybrid warmouth fingerlings although not quite set up for it yet. If you see this Jim, may I ask how the different f1 warmouth hybrids performed as far as growth rate, vigor etc (I'm not interested in fertility since I prefer it be low)?The warmouth would seem to be a natural substitute for the GSF since they are so similar but the warmouth don't seem as prone to stunt even if there is some reversion and may grow a little larger. Also, in Florida they are not native and not welcome. I'm probably oversimplifying this. One more question, did you generate the F1 hybrids in a tank type setting? Thanks, Jim M

Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,861
Likes: 298
A
Offline
A
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,861
Likes: 298
I like warmouth, too. Unfortunately, their large mouth gape means they compete too much with LMB for food, or so I've heard.


7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 8
W
Offline
W
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 8
Thanks for the reply. Maybe the warmouth/BG hybrid might be large enough to replace the Largemouth Bass as the top predator, depending on what is considered forage in the pond.

Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,879
Likes: 278
J
Online Content
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,879
Likes: 278
Originally Posted By: warmouthy
Maybe the warmouth/BG hybrid might be large enough to replace the Largemouth Bass as the top predator, depending on what is considered forage in the pond.


IMHO Warmouth and particularly GSH have evolved with large gapes to fill an attrition niche. They possess the ability to be top predator in monoculture. Having the ability to consume their own kind at larger sizes help them to more greatly limit their own production relative to other panfish. This adaptation helps them occupy cramped quarters in shady small intermittent creeks or in low DO waters heavily shaded by cypress. Being self limiting may help them prevent DO depletion and starvation that would occur with BG under the same scenarios. They occupy a very specialized niche. My experience with GSF only cultures is that maximum size is limited to ~8" and that they are unable to withstand harvesting without stunting. With a WM/BG hybrid, the situation would be worse because of the smaller gape.

With panfish as a goal, a better plan might be LMB/BG with say 10 to 20 WM/acre/year which are stocked at sufficient size to avoid LMB predators. The WM will help the LMB control some of BG and provide an added fishing opportunity. In this setting you would grow many small bass, but no large ones. Any LMB > 10 " could be harvested with no ill effects and you could harvest the WM at the same size. BG will grow larger provided you further limit BG numbers and/or feed. For this scenario to work at its optimum you must either stock LMB at sufficient numbers initially, allow an LMB spawn before adding panfish, or establish LMB and WM before adding BG. When I "say optimum" what I mean is a scenario that is easily sustainable and maintained. If you stock LMB and BG at numbers appropriate for large LMB, you would be able to have good growth of the intial BG stockers but it would become increasingly difficult to manage for large BG because of insufficient LMB reproduction and BG overproduction. Even so, once the balance is tipped to large numbers of small LMB, the pond will sustain this trophy BG friendly balance largely on its own (why work to get it there when you can start out that way?). I think the introduction of WM or GSF helps a trophy panfish pond produce larger panfish. Its just a matter of what you want in your pond.

Last edited by jpsdad; 07/04/18 08:19 AM.

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


jpsdad #493230 07/04/18 11:33 AM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 8
W
Offline
W
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 8
Originally Posted By: jpsdad
Originally Posted By: warmouthy
Maybe the warmouth/BG hybrid might be large enough to replace the Largemouth Bass as the top predator, depending on what is considered forage in the pond.


IMHO Warmouth and particularly GSH have evolved with large gapes to fill an attrition niche. They possess the ability to be top predator in monoculture. Having the ability to consume their own kind at larger sizes help them to more greatly limit their own production relative to other panfish. This adaptation helps them occupy cramped quarters in shady small intermittent creeks or in low DO waters heavily shaded by cypress. Being self limiting may help them prevent DO depletion and starvation that would occur with BG under the same scenarios. They occupy a very specialized niche. My experience with GSF only cultures is that maximum size is limited to ~8" and that they are unable to withstand harvesting without stunting. With a WM/BG hybrid, the situation would be worse because of the smaller gape.

With panfish as a goal, a better plan might be LMB/BG with say 10 to 20 WM/acre/year which are stocked at sufficient size to avoid LMB predators. The WM will help the LMB control some of BG and provide an added fishing opportunity. In this setting you would grow many small bass, but no large ones. Any LMB > 10 " could be harvested with no ill effects and you could harvest the WM at the same size. BG will grow larger provided you further limit BG numbers and/or feed. For this scenario to work at its optimum you must either stock LMB at sufficient numbers initially, allow an LMB spawn before adding panfish, or establish LMB and WM before adding BG. When I "say optimum" what I mean is a scenario that is easily sustainable and maintained. If you stock LMB and BG at numbers appropriate for large LMB, you would be able to have good growth of the intial BG stockers but it would become increasingly difficult to manage for large BG because of insufficient LMB reproduction and BG overproduction. Even so, once the balance is tipped to large numbers of small LMB, the pond will sustain this trophy BG friendly balance largely on its own (why work to get it there when you can start out that way?). I think the introduction of WM or GSF helps a trophy panfish pond produce larger panfish. Its just a matter of what you want in your pond.


Thanks, those are good points. I've got a lot to learn and I'm just gettin' started.

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
With any hybrid it is critical to know the reproduction potential to then guess if X can replace Y.

Last edited by ewest; 07/05/18 09:16 AM.
















Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
Bob Lusk, GaryK, GrizzFan, PhotographerDave
Recent Posts
Relative weight charts in Excel ? Calculations?
by jpsdad - 03/28/24 07:40 AM
Brooder Shiners and Fry, What to do??
by Freg - 03/28/24 07:28 AM
Happy Birthday Bob Lusk!!
by Donatello - 03/28/24 07:20 AM
Reducing fish biomass
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:17 PM
New 2 acre pond stocking plan
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:05 PM
1 year after stocking question
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:02 PM
Questions and Feedback on SMB
by Donatello - 03/27/24 03:10 PM
Paper-shell crayfish and Japanese snails
by Bill Cody - 03/27/24 10:18 AM
2024 North Texas Optimal BG food Group Buy
by Dave Davidson1 - 03/27/24 08:15 AM
Dewatering bags seeded to form berms?
by esshup - 03/26/24 10:00 PM
Freeze Danger? - Electric Diaphragm Pump
by esshup - 03/26/24 09:47 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5