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https://www.xylem.com/siteassets/brand-s...-aeration12.pdf


Here is the link to the membranes i used. with the specs. I am not into figuring out all that information on flow rates but maybe one of the geniuses here can help me out let all us DIY cheapo guys know how they compare to something they use.

Disc material Specially blended highgrade
EPDM
Diameter 178 or 229 mm
(7 or 9 in)
Airflow range per disc 0.8–7 Nm³/h
(0.5–4.5 scfm)
Standard oxygen transfer
efficiency (SOTE)
Approx. 6.5% per m
submergence (2% per ft)
Standard aeration
efficiency (SAE)
2.5–6 kg O2 /kWh
(4–10 lb O2 /hph)

This is obviously way over my head as i am a pipefitter by trade not sanitation specialist or aerator engineer. But after this post if closed i am sure i will be highly educated in the matter.


Just an average guy trying to keep up two ponds.
Main pond 9000 sq ft with 1700 sq ft island 5.5ft avg depth
Second pond 2400 sq ft 4ft avg depth
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Originally Posted By: Krystofer
Originally Posted By: esshup
It's a ________ (fill in the blank) setup for a cheap price. With that said, the way we start to calculate on how to design an aeration system for a pond is how many gallons of water each diffuser membrane moves to the surface per minute.

Now if you can figure that out you can compare that to the Vertex diffusers.

Us pond professionals that are paid to figure out aeration systems for peoples ponds can't do what you are doing. If we design and sell something and it doesn't work or the customer has a fish kill, who foots the bill? The customer that didn't want to spend the money for a system with R&D/Testing behind it or the company that built the system? If we did something like you did, and the glue comes apart, it costs us to go back and fix it, or do we tell the customer that they have to fix it? The DIY guys don't figure in labor and miles traveled to do the work, they are doing it in their spare time.

I'd be curious to see what the diffuser cost you if you take your hourly rate (what you get paid for working) and multiply that by the time you have building the diffuser and connections, plus the time you spent looking up where and what to buy to build it. Then add in the actual materials. Even the water bottle top. Now, what did that diffuser cost?




As stated 15$ total cost. Sure are a bunch of fluid dynamic engineers on here. I built a glue together diffuser. It works. Its cheap. I can build them in 20 min with a time of 3 hours for glue to set. This was to save money period. I am sure with a few formulas and minutes i could figure all these numbers out to give exacts and find out the cost ratios for running pumps and water turn over rates ect... but in the long run i dont care about that. I turn the pump on at night and off in the morning. Been running for a week just fine. If i have problems i will solve it then. This was not to be an engineering thread just a hey guys and gals this might be a cheap solution for those not willing to bit e the bullet on a commercialized aeration system. I am happy and that is really all that matters. The rest of you can carry on in your negativity and for those that said good job thank you. Hope i gave some Macgyver Ideas to some of you. Have a good day all and Happy Ponding!!!


Actually, there ARE a bunch of engineers on here....

I get what you're saying Krystofer, and yes it can be a little frustrating here at times. Many here take ponds and fish really, REALLY, seriously. They are trying to help, I promise. You have to remember that an engineer isn't satisfied with the operation of the thing until he or she maths it almost to death. grin it's just in their nature.

But what they're telling you is true....Lots of fine bubbles is what you're looking for in a diffuser for a pond setting. That doesn't mean that what you have isn't perfectly good enough for your particular needs....doesn't mean that at all.

But some of these guys make their living selling and installing this stuff, and when you're doing it for someone else all the time it better be right. And after awhile of doing this, you begin approaching every project with this mindset. It can be easy to forget that sometimes, good enough is exactly that....good enough.

Even if the math doesn't look like what we think it should.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Exactly. ^^^^ This guy gets it. I totally understand that mindset. I am a Gen Supt for a major mechanical company that employs around 10 PE's. I definitely understand the engineer ways in our work force. I am glad they have the same kind of people in the pond world too. I just wanted to say that this membrane was a designed pond/wastewater treatment membrane.


Just an average guy trying to keep up two ponds.
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Ahhh yes the old DIY air system... Can't say much my first one was a bit sketchy as well... lol

And I got a lot of slack over it smile Specially my pump... a Eco 7 plus. A lot of folks out here used my system tho. And I can't tell you how many PM's I got on it asking for help. Remember them days guys..haha no one could believe I was pumping 8 foot with this pump but I was I got video for proof... and then some pumps same model would not pump past 6 feet so I got lucky with mine. At that time I used 9 inch fine bubble diffusers from what was then called diffuser express. They worked great for me and my setup at the time. I used this setup for almost 4 years, but and there is always a but, my ponds biomass at that time was pretty light then.

Fast Forward to now. I have since swapped out my pump with a Gast 0523 1/3hp pump. (Much better and stronger pump) and I have also replaced my diffusers with Vertex fusers. Much better diffuser! How do I know this well 2 reasons.

1. From everyone out here showing me the math and movement of the Vertex diffusers. From experts out here that do this for a living and absolutely know what there talking about.

2. And this one on my own. I could tell just by being in my boat next to the water boil my boat moves away much faster now. The boil isn't that big but dang the water movement is crazy!!

Does that mean my fist setup sucked and wasn't any good? No Sir... It was what I could afford and it worked for 3.5 years. I just had the extra money to upgrade so I did as I could. Now I just have a little more peace of mind that I have the right stuff in place. At first this did not matter to much to me but as I grew and managed my pond and my fish started to get larger and larger and better quality and quantity you start to realize all the work you put into your fish you will start to think about your air setup more and more and how to improve it cause the last thing I want is a fish kill cause I got a 15 dollar diffuser instead of a 35 dollar diffuser. Just using that as an example... It will start to weigh on ya.... smile

RC

RC


The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!
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I have read your DIY post. It was a good push in the direction of I can do it myself. Thanks for that. I have similar reactions to my floating dock with water movement but i am not sure if my water boil is average or bigger than vertex. Maybe i can Youtube some and compare.


Just an average guy trying to keep up two ponds.
Main pond 9000 sq ft with 1700 sq ft island 5.5ft avg depth
Second pond 2400 sq ft 4ft avg depth
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So i watched an underwater vertex membrane video and i do have to say i dont think there was much difference in air streams. I was not upclose to the vertex like i was on mine in the pool, but they looked very similar. I think sure the vertex might produce a smaller bubble but i wont be able to tell that with my experience or vision. I did watch the four disc vertex in a pond video and it seems to move move water outward but i assume that is because it is a four disc. I think adding one more in my deep end should be all that i need. My pond is pretty small.


Just an average guy trying to keep up two ponds.
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Second pond 2400 sq ft 4ft avg depth
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Originally Posted By: Krystofer
i am not sure if my water boil is average or bigger than vertex. Maybe i can Youtube some and compare.


Man for 40 bucks get a Vertex diffuser and test them side by side. Make your own Youtube videos comparing them. Have fun with it and add to the PB knowledge base! I know I would be very interested in the results!

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 08/10/17 03:22 PM.

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Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
Originally Posted By: Krystofer
i am not sure if my water boil is average or bigger than vertex. Maybe i can Youtube some and compare.


Man for 40 bucks get a Vertex diffuser and test them side by side. Make your own Youtube videos comparing them. Have fun with it and add to the PB knowledge base! I know I would be very interested in the results!


I think i will if i get some money together. Sounds like a plan.


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Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
Originally Posted By: Krystofer
i am not sure if my water boil is average or bigger than vertex. Maybe i can Youtube some and compare.


Man for 40 bucks get a Vertex diffuser and test them side by side. Make your own Youtube videos comparing them. Have fun with it and add to the PB knowledge base! I know I would be very interested in the results!


I agree!!!!!!!


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Krystofer,

You misunderstand. I am saying you data is missing. Further, just by looking at your design, I bet you have introduced a lot of destructive interference which will increase your costs or reduce your efficiency. Both are not good for your bottom line. We were trying to point that out to you to help you improve your design. If you want to toss insults, thats fine, but don't expect a lot of help from those who have been there and done that. This is unique group of pond enthusiasts with thousands of years of experience. Someone here has done it before and can save you money in the long run if you are willing to listen.

If you don't want to hear any negative feedback, that is okay. I learn from others. I want people to show me how I can improve my setup. Without feedback, we would still be using sails and oars.

About the $40 for a diffuser, one fish kill will cost you far more.

Best of luck with your ponds.


Brian

The one thing is the one thing
A dry fly catches no fish
Try not to be THAT 10%
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Have we asked him what his goals for the pond are?? Does he have any fish?


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: highflyer
Krystofer,



About the $40 for a diffuser, one fish kill will cost you far more.

Best of luck with your ponds.


That's no joke! This is what I did not understand at first until the management part of my pond kicked in. Raising these fish like "some" of us do is kind of like how folks raise deer. Not on that same scale money wise I suppose but each nice sized fish or deer took a lot of time and money to get to a certain size / quality. Here is the best advise I could give you.

"Use what you have to for now for your air setup I totally get the "I cant afford thing" I was there, but do your best to listen to what being said out here so one day when you can afford it you will know what you need to do to upgrade your system to the best it can be"

I still consider my system a DIY but just with better parts now!! smile

RC


The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!
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I am totally onboard with the corrective criticism tone of thought, it just seemed like the criticism i was receiving was not of that tone. More like hey your idea is never going to work this is the system i sell and you have to use it for your pond to work. I totally get that people do this for a living and might have a superior system. I at no means need a top of the line system. My pond has some crappie (not stocked must have been dropped in by bird feathers) LMB, CC, and some pan fish. I bought this house and fish were already in there. I am not looking at raising the best fishing hole in the world. I just knew my water quality sucked due to the excessive amount of duck weed taking over. I am not going to put any more chemicals and now that i have aeration i should keep the fish from starving out of oxygen until next spring when i can keep the duck weed help back. If i plan on upgrading my system i will definitely look at a vertex diffuser just for comparison only. I think the pool is a great way to see how the two work. And i am sure some people would like to make their own set up rather than buy.


Just an average guy trying to keep up two ponds.
Main pond 9000 sq ft with 1700 sq ft island 5.5ft avg depth
Second pond 2400 sq ft 4ft avg depth
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 26
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Originally Posted By: highflyer
Krystofer,

You misunderstand. I am saying you data is missing. Further, just by looking at your design, I bet you have introduced a lot of destructive interference which will increase your costs or reduce your efficiency. Both are not good for your bottom line. We were trying to point that out to you to help you improve your design. If you want to toss insults, thats fine, but don't expect a lot of help from those who have been there and done that. This is unique group of pond enthusiasts with thousands of years of experience. Someone here has done it before and can save you money in the long run if you are willing to listen.

If you don't want to hear any negative feedback, that is okay. I learn from others. I want people to show me how I can improve my setup. Without feedback, we would still be using sails and oars.

About the $40 for a diffuser, one fish kill will cost you far more.

Best of luck with your ponds.


Curiousity. I am glad you have some criticism but what specifically do you think adds to the destructive interference. Maybe i can improve on that or decide if your statement holds water... no pun intended.


Just an average guy trying to keep up two ponds.
Main pond 9000 sq ft with 1700 sq ft island 5.5ft avg depth
Second pond 2400 sq ft 4ft avg depth
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