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#478086 08/12/17 05:34 PM
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I was afraid to high jack another thread so starting this one. Dragon got me thinking about the spawning habits of my GSF. Here is the story, we built this pond year ago, it never held water. Fixed it twice and we started holding water in about 2014. It did okay, but never really filled...up and down up and down. Early 2016 I find pondboss. We had never stocked the pond, but my boys had thrown some bucket fish into it. Many out of a creek. I joined and lurked around a bit, looking at ways to fix the leaky pond, learning what all we did wrong and nearly threw my hands in the air. lol. Finally fiddled around enough until the pond now holds water fairly well. Last July (2016)we stocked (yes it was hot but truck was here and I didn't know better yet mad ) 25LMB, 200BG, 50RES, 10#FHM, and a carp. I also got some optimal feed that I was throwing out twice a day. Rocked on until around sept or oct thought we would see if we could catch something. Started catching all these little sunfish. I was like, MAN look at the bellies on these guys! They are tearing up the feed. So I posted pics, they were GREEN SUNFISH. So I begin studying all about them. Scares me to death thinking all my newly stocked fish would become GSF poo, so I went to my uncles pond and catch 10 LMB ranging from 8-12", to battle the GSF. I also engage in catch and remove all the GSF possible. My kids know a GSF at 100 yards now. lol.

Fast fwd to today. We now have at least 10 very fat healthy LMB that I have caught 3 of at this point and have been very impressed. We still have who knows how many GSF...we have embraced them now, we have caught I know two that were in the 10" range. I know I have YOY bass. The GSF range from fingerling to a few large ones. As I said in the other post the BG probably get caught 1 for every 15 GSF...maybe. Never caught one of the RES, but that doesn't surprise me anyways. I know there are some healthy BG because the ones we have caught were very nice and healthy. I think we have caught 4 this year.

My goal was to have a balanced fishery with some decent BG but not trophies...but I wanted quite a few 5-7lbs LMB. Not going for a trophy pond..but one that a young kid can catch a fish he or she will remember. Does that make sense?

Now to the questions from the other thread...

ewest...I do not have a seine but that might be possible...I would have to learn about that before trying it or buying the net...I'm sure they aren't cheap and I'm counting myself lucky right now to get to purchase some AM500 for my DIY feeder up from the TSC I was feeding. lol Do you mean the walking type or throwing? If I was to add 50-100 adults would they for the most part to themselves?? I have never thought about the BG and GSF keeping to themselves...I guess I always figured the sunfish would enter mingle if in the same BOW.

John, when you say adult are you meaning in the 6" range? Can those be purchased in Arkansas from the truck if you arrange it or would I need to go to a hatchery? I would really like to do that as I love BG...just want to make for sure before trying to spend money on them.

Farmallsc I feel your pain. Feel free to tell your GSF story on this thread. I would love to hear everyones stories about them. My kids love catching them. I wish I could go back and maybe hold off on putting the 10 LMB in last year...they were skinny from a gravel pit and have done VERY well. lol. I know I have removed at least 5 GSF people would be impressed with on here. No telling how large I could get them feeding and not having the larger predators.

So thats my GSF story. Hope it all made sense..it was kind of long and I'm sure my thoughts were kind of all over the place.


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Peach
When you are given lemons make lemonade! I reall don't think they are that bad. I have warmouth in my pond.....no problem that I can see.

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Peach you weren't doing any damage, I was just using that thread to post my BG fry pictures. I can't wait to see how my pond advances in regards to BG vs GSF vs PS.


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Originally Posted By: peachgrower

John, when you say adult are you meaning in the 6" range? Can those be purchased in Arkansas from the truck if you arrange it or would I need to go to a hatchery? I would really like to do that as I love BG...just want to make for sure before trying to spend money on them.


Peachgrower,
I caught 30 or so 5-7" adult BG from a neighbor's 1/8 acre BG only pond and bucket stocked them in December 2015, about 2-1/2 months after my initial stocking of 150 or so 1.5" CNBG and RES from the fish truck. The adults spawned prolifically in early 2016. The males spawned with the CNBG females in late summer 2016. I had so many BG and FHM this early summer that I had to catch and stock five bass 5" to 8".

The adult stockers became pellet trained spring 2016, and are now as big as any BG I have seen around this area. The CNBG are around 7-8 inches, and nearly round in shape.

Been feeding them Optimal BG and BG Jr.

I found out that CC prefer pellets over BG, and won't control them, or FHM.

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Survey seine nets are not expensive. You can get 2 20' by 4 ft seine nets at WalMart and zip-tie them into one 40' net. Seine surveys are easy to do. Every pond owner should learn how and use them to gather info.

Most lepomis (sunfish) species try to segregate. They each have breeding traits and cues that tend to separate them apart.

Last edited by ewest; 08/12/17 09:16 PM.















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Seines tend to hang up on structure most of us put in our ponds. Mine would be a nightmare to seine with the culverts, rock and brick piles, and brush in it. Besides, it's 11 ft deep at full pool. How would you seine that even without obstructions?

Last edited by John F; 08/12/17 09:23 PM.
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My story begins in earnest this past February. This land has been in the family several decades. The pond used to be an old gin tank. Thinking there were no fish in it, I stocked FHM, BG, Res, and CC, then 3 months later I stocked Tilapia. We hand fed them and they would bubble the water. Me and Mom well we don't see all that well, so wife comes down while we are feeding and takes pictures and video. Not knowing any better, we thought those fish we stocked had grown great! Showed the pictures here and rut-row, what we had coming to eat was GSF! We started fishing and sure enough we had some whoppers! I'd have to look back in my thread, but I had several nice sized ones, I think I caught somewhere around 40 of them in sizes 8"-11".

Fast Forward to present, We fished this week and caught CC, and several GSF in the 3"-4" range, but nothing larger. I'm hopeful a few BG survived, but deep down, I really doubt it.

I have embraced the GSF, they are a blast to catch.



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John F it is a seine survey. You only seine a small part of the shoreline of the pond. See this info from MS pond mgt.at pg 16

http://extension.msstate.edu/sites/default/files/publications/publications/p1428_0.pdf

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Originally Posted By: ewest
John F it is a seine survey. You only seine a small part of the shoreline of the pond. See this info from MS pond mgt.at pg 16


Sorry.

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No need to say "sorry". We all start with no knowledge and learn from there. I did ! Many on here don't know about that either and I hope they read and learn how as its a valuable , inexpensive fun tool to use. Keep asking questions. cool
















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There ain't a dumb question especially in our pond boss family! Well said Ewest

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ewest, will be looking into the seine now. Haven't been able to look at the MSU publication yet but will. I never knew about taking a simple survey. That would be very interesting and fun. The kids would really enjoy that. Might be a good how-to thread!

Centrarchid, I guess we all start with dreams of pure strain fish that are big and healthy, whatever species they might be. I have just read horror stories of GSF taking over and out competing LMB for forage. My forage was to be BG. As I have learned, I have looked back at ALL my mistakes I have made with this pond...oh such a list. There isn't any going back now. Just trying to learn what I can about the two...GSF and BG to try to push back more towards the BG and away from the bucket stocked GSF. I know from what I have learned "it all depends"...but I learn a little more everyday thanks to the great folks here! Sorry a little longer than 50 words.


Pat, I'm making lots of lemonade! lol


Question for all with GSF and BG or information about them. Do you seem to have beds around your pond nearly all summer with GSF all over them? The beds are in very shallow water...and seem to be there for nearly a week, then a day or so without then more beds. This goes on all summer.

Thanks again!


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Here is a link to my GSF story.
100% GSF
For what it is worth, by adding some adult BG (3-7" range over a year or so) caught from my main pond, that pond is completely turned around as far as I am concerned. Fished it just a little bit tonight. Has good BG population and growth now but still easy to catch a small GSF close to the edge. The small greenies seem to hug the bank and any cover with only an occasional adult size GSF caught out in deeper water. Of the larger keeper size fish, 9 out of ten catches will be either BG or BG/GSF hybrid and I catch maybe 2 out of that 9 being hybrid BG. Which I also like a lot.

And here is another persons.
Green Sunfish

Last edited by snrub; 08/13/17 09:49 PM.

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Centrarchid, you described my pond to a tee. I have a very expansive shallow area...probably 3/5th of the pond is between 2-4ft..then drops to probably 8-10 all the way across the levee. I have to get some good measurements soon while its up close to full pool. I have some man made structure, sunken truck tires, a couple cedar trees, a few stacks of pallets but nothing substantial like some. The funny thing about my GSF is I catch them everywhere...they love the shallows but you would not think they were worried to much about predators.

I'm really interested in both BG and GSF spawning habits. I have seen pictures of many beds and mine just have a different look to them. They are very dissimilar in size which I would assume was relative to the size of the fish?? They clean the spot very well, but are not always circular. I have read that GSF spawn once a year...is this true? Since I have these beds in inches of water and very close to shore I would think they were GSF. But I know that BG spawn continually until cool weather. I really need to get a siene net like ewest talked about.

With my goal of more BG and knowing about how GSF are with juvenile BG, am I on the right track by waiting until next year to give the LMB a little more time to work on the GSF then adding another 100 adult BG maybe next spring?

Thanks everyone. I really am enjoying this topic.

Edit: Hey snrub, I have read yours multiple times and the other. So that plan worked for you? That gives me hope. I really don't have a problem with them like I did, but for the goals I have, they just don't really fit. When you say added some over a year a so...about how many do you think? Just as you caught them or a good sized number each time? When your GSF were so prevalent what did the beds look like? Did they line shores all summer long? Some of mine even seem to merge into two or three. Mine do not really make a hole because I have so much gravel. Would it help the BG out if I made a sand spawning zone? I might could do that.

Thanks again!

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Most of the time I can not see the beds in my ponds because I have too much of an algae bloom so the water is not clear enough. But for a while this spring it cleared up enough to see the most shallow beds and a few just beyond. The ones right near the bank, in only maybe 6-8" of water, were either GSF or BGxGSF hybrids. I could not see them well enough to see if they were pure or hybrids, but the yellow on the tips of the tails make the fish with GSF in them really stand out. I could see larger BG on nests in the next row in slightly deeper water and I do not know how much deeper the beds continued because I could not see in the deeper water.

So it appeared to me maybe the GSF spawned in shallower water than the BG, at least in this situation. This is the first year I have really noticed this area to have beds. I have at least a couple other areas of the pond I usually associate with spawning beds.


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Originally Posted By: peachgrower


Centrarchid, I guess we all start with dreams of pure strain fish


Well, maybe not all of us. wink


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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If you only put in limited #s of BG into a pond with established GSF then adding a few more adult BG is a good idea. It will insure that more adult BG are alive and spawning. Here is some info on fecundity (possible reproduction) of BG and GSF.

From Efish http://web1.cnre.vt.edu/efish/families/centrarchidae.html
BG
Reproductive Habits:
· Mature at age 1 or 2
· Spawning occurs May to September
· Males build colonial nests in shallows on sand or gravel
· Females spawn several times a year
· Fecundity is about 80,000 eggs per female per year

GSF
Reproductive Habits:
· Mature at age 1 or 3
· Spawning occurs late May through July
· Males build nests around vegetation
· Fecundity is 2,000-10,000 eggs per female per year
· Hybridizes with many other sunfish species

From the #s of eggs you can see why BG have a reproductive advantage.

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Last edited by Centrarchid; 08/15/17 10:51 PM.
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I'm not trying to start a debate...but I will say that I'm really enjoying reading from you all that are so knowledgeable with this. Every time I read more posts I understand more and more about what I am looking at when I walk to the pond.

So from what I have read there is the possibility that all the BG I stocked last July may or may not have spawned yet? I may not see any result from them until next year...unless the GSF eat all my YOY. Thats what worries me most.

sprkplug....soooo, what did your goal start as?? lol


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I guess I could take a seine sample to see? I'm just afraid with the numbers GSF I have, the number of YOY may be small. I will have to get one of these nets!


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That info is from the Fisheries Science Dept of Va Tech. It also is comparable to the info at Fish Base , AFS book on Bluegill Biology and Handbook of Freshwater Fishery Biology, Life History Data on Centrarchid Fishes of the United... by Carlander on the species. those numbers are yearly egg totals. All the info I have seen indicates that BG have a substantial reproductive advantage over GSF.
















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I see no reason to worry about GSF. They spawn annually and BG/CNBG spawn multiple times. Their fusiform shape makes them more vulnerable to predation than other sunfish.

I have what I consider a forage pond with BG and GSF. It ranges, depending on weather, from 1/8 to 3/8 acre. When I seine and add the results to my larger pond, I don't hesitate to add them along with the BG. Due to predation, I very rarely catch one. When I do, I know it. They out fight a BG every time.

According to Lusk, 99.5% of all fish that are spawned in a pond(not a hatchery) don't survive to be one year old. So, what's the big deal?


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

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A lot of great info here guys. Thanks for taking the time to educate us pondmeisters without the formal education that you guys have.


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Originally Posted By: Centrarchid
Green Sunfish spawn repeatedly each breeding season just like most sunfishes such as BG and CNBG.

Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
I see no reason to worry about GSF. They spawn annually and BG/CNBG spawn multiple times.


Ok who's right here? Do GSF spawn more than once down south? Or could it be that individuals spawn once over 2 separate spawns? I don't know, I'm no GSF spawning expert but maybe someone can explain why we are disagreeing.


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Originally Posted By: ThePondDragon
Originally Posted By: Centrarchid
Green Sunfish spawn repeatedly each breeding season just like most sunfishes such as BG and CNBG.

Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
I see no reason to worry about GSF. They spawn annually and BG/CNBG spawn multiple times.


Ok who's right here? Do GSF spawn more than once down south? Or could it be that individuals spawn once over 2 separate spawns? I don't know, I'm no GSF spawning expert but maybe someone can explain why we are disagreeing.


I would love to know this also. All I do know is that I see beds all summer around my pond and I believe they are GSF. I would love to think they were BG, but you can see the yellow border around the fins from the bank. I bet it is forum motto.."It all depends". Which probably couldn't be truer. My BOW is probably different than another one a mile or so down the road...much less states different. So many factors.


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Because many sunfish can , depending on location and other factors, spawn more than once a year , and some do , the number of spawns is not critical. The best measure of fecundity (reproductive capacity)is the number of eggs produced by an average female over a year. That is why Fisheries Scientists use that measure in their work. See the prior post which noted the numbers for GSF and BG. A direct answer is in most US locations BG have multiple spawns. The further north the fewer in number of spawns. IMO this is due to weather- photoperiod and temps are at their best over a shorter spring/summer period. GSF have been noted in some locations to spawn more than once but I have seen no data indicating that they spawn 4-10 times like BG do in most southern locations.

FYI there are threads here on "Rolling spawns" that cover much of this in detail. Here is one http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post127721

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Originally Posted By: Centrarchid
What criteria do I or one of my students have to meet to provide suitable evidence demonstrating within season iteroparity of Green Sunfish? What journal do you want it in?


I've never been shy on here when it comes to asking the uncomfortable questions, so I'll pose the one that's on everyone's mind: who are you, again? I'm not trying to stir things up, it's just that your post count is low, and very recent. You certainly came on strong here as of late, so maybe it would help bolster your case if the impressive vocabulary also contained a few specific credentials, and less ego?

I'm of the opinion that you may well be correct, but " Because I said so", won't carry much weight around here.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Not everyone is familiar with or knows about this forum. Some new members will always be arriving and some members leaving. The problem with forum 'labels' is one does not know who is actually on the "other end". If you look at the profile for Centrarchid, one will see that he is an instructor (Professor) of Aquaculture in Missouri. For one to be a full Professor, as opposed to an assistant or associate professor, they have earned tenure and normally have to have published papers, and be regularly publishing in professional journals. I am sure that Centrarchid will send you his professional resume if asked.

As a moderator, I apologize for doubtful behavior of some of the members due to the fact the forum often gets participants that make unusual or unproven claims without verified evidence. Speaking as a moderator, this forum prides itself as providing accurate information about pond management topics. By far we are not all knowing. We try to dismiss wives tales, myths, and try to separate facts from fiction. Most of our basic knowledge or facts come from information published in peer reviewed journals and fishery books. Thus without data as a backup for statements that appear contrary, some members will be naturally questioning new information that does not agree with published literature. I had to deal with some of these same doubts, when I wrote articles in PBoss magazine about smallmouth bass being able to survive well in warm water ponds and southern ponds.

As far as publishing the new information about frequency of GSF spawning one could start by putting a technical note; in Fisheries Magazine, The North American Journal of Aquaculture or better yet, get one or two of your students or you put together a short article with a couple picture or some data (1200-2500 words) for Pond Boss magazine about spawning habits of green sunfish or several of the common sunfishes. It would be a good way to get one of your students with an article in print. Dr. Wes Neal (Assoc Prof Mississippi State), Dr. Brian Graeb Assoc Prof at South Dakota State and some of their students regularly have articles in Pond Boss magazine. Previously Dr. David Willis Professor SDSU until his untimely death with occasionally a student wrote articles for each issue of PBoss magazine. Dr Claude Boyd regularly has an article about water chemistry in each PBoss issue. We welcome all new authors of fishery and pond management articles at Pond Boss magazine to keep readers up-to-date about fish raising information, especially new ideas and data.

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Well said guys. I shouldn't make blanket statements about fish behavior. We have often said that all ponds are different. Also, location matters a lot. I have often said that I have very limited knowledge about fish behavior in more Northern climates. I know quite a bit about what happens, or generally happens, around my area. But everything changes when we go from West Texas to East Texas. Having a curious nature, I've killed a lot of fish when I start wondering what would happen if..... But that doesn't mean much when the location, climate, soils are different.

I've studied and read a lot about GSF. I like those mutts. Generally, GSF spawn once per year. However, how about the GSF that spawns with a BG and it's progeny re spawn with BG or CNBG? At what point, generations later, does the GSF traits weaken and spawning becomes more often? I don't know and haven't seen any University or peer reviewed studies about it.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Dave, that's exactly the reason behind my current ponds/fish philosophy. I used to think there were at least a few unshakable cornerstones of aquatic management, with our usual "it depends" filling in most everything else. Now I've decided that I know better, and "it depends" actually applies to every single aspect, with the possible exception that liquid water is wet.

That's why my advice these days is to take all advice with a grain of salt. No one will know your pond, your fish, your situation as well as you do. Listen to the pros, then balance their advice with your own observations. There are no constants, only variables.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Looks like we have lost Centrarchid, Hopefully only temporarily! I have enjoyed his recent participation.


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Was wondering who this guy is, his profile is blank. I could tell he is intelligent and knows a lot but maybe not so much on how to present it without looking .... well you know. The pond boss saying it "depends " really does !

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This is my opinion: If you have the credentials to be an authority on a subject in a forum, then you should use your real name, otherwise those credentials could be made up, at least in the minds of some readers. On other forums (on different subjects) I have been on, those highly credentialed people in the field would always use real names.

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I have always enjoyed this forum much more than others I have been a part of because of the maturity levels here on PB. No name calling, bashing, hazing, cutting down, or intentional hair raising - Just good ole' conversations. Some joking goes on between closer members and we all laugh. This forum does not require thick skin to be a member, but I guess you still need some skin to handle some of the disagreements.

EDIT: Sorry Peach for contributing to the highjack!

Last edited by Quarter Acre; 08/16/17 11:48 AM.

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Get it back on track.

Outcomes of competition between these two sunfishes is not just about reproductive output. It is also a function of direct competition and relative abilities of the two species to deal with their environment.

Post #1.


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Welcome Jim to the forum jump in and have fun

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Jim Wetzel
Associate Professor of Aquaculture
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2006 – Present (11 years)
Research and teaching of Aquaculture

Education

Southern Illinois University, Carbondale Purdue
Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.), Zoology/Animal Biology
1995 – 2004

Purdue University
Master's degree, Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences
1990 – 1993

Welcome aboard and we appreciate you are here!

We look forward to hearing more about this topic

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Welcome Dr. Wetzel.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Originally Posted By: Jim Wetzel
Get it back on track.

Outcomes of competition between these two sunfishes is not just about reproductive output. It is also a function of direct competition and relative abilities of the two species to deal with their environment.

Post #1.


Have there been any studies/research done on this topic? It seems like it may be hard to accurately research but I would be interested in reading any research relating to this topic.

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Jim Wetzel = Centrarchid

Information above not up to date nor relevant to quality of what is posted.

Post #2, getting smarter


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I would love you to start a new thread addressing your research on these 2 topics. WE have lively discussion about the pros/cons of different fish food for sunfish and their various protein contents.


Dudenhoefer, G., J.E. Wetzel and T. Omara-Alawala. 2011. Evaluation of Selected Commercial Starter Feeds for Sunfish Fry Culture. North American Journal of Aquaculture 73(3): 332-338.

Wetzel, J.E., C.S. Kasper, C. C. Kohler. 2006. Comparison of pond production of phase-III sunshine bass fed 32-, 36-, and 40%-crude-protein diets with fixed energy: protein ratios. North American Journal of Aquaculture 68(3):264-270.

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Originally Posted By: jludwig
Originally Posted By: Jim Wetzel
Get it back on track.

Outcomes of competition between these two sunfishes is not just about reproductive output. It is also a function of direct competition and relative abilities of the two species to deal with their environment.

Post #1.


Have there been any studies/research done on this topic? It seems like it may be hard to accurately research but I would be interested in reading any research relating to this topic.


Do search using pumpkinseed, bluegill, green sunfish and interspecies. Authors looked at who displaced who.

In my most humble opinion based on what I think I see, when a bluegill and green sunfish are both less than 3" and of similar size, the green sunfish more often than not excludes the bluegill. After that it comes down to who is larger.

Something can complicate that relationship that authors did not report.

Both species are capable of adopting a behavioral pattern that is best described as territoriality. The territory encompasses a food source that is predictable yet defensible. There is a distinctive color pattern both species adopt when doing this. Both sexes do it in both species. Such is not in the literature. I described it to you now and call it brats. Go out and watch your smaller fish in shallows of ponds or streams where seeing is good. Make your judgements of what is real based on observation rather a post.


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Jim W. Thanks for returning to the forum. Your credentials speak for themselves. I am sure that your graduate committee quizzed and questioned you much more than what you have endured on this forum. Please consider contributing an occasional article to Pond Boss magazine.
The word on the street is Jim has grown 1 lb bluegills in 10 months indoors. We can learn a lot of good information from this member.


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Originally Posted By: Jim Wetzel
Jim Wetzel = Centrarchid

Information above not up to date nor relevant to quality of what is posted.

Post #2, getting smarter


Thanks for that!

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Originally Posted By: Jim Wetzel
Originally Posted By: jludwig
Originally Posted By: Jim Wetzel
Get it back on track.

Outcomes of competition between these two sunfishes is not just about reproductive output. It is also a function of direct competition and relative abilities of the two species to deal with their environment.

Post #1.


Have there been any studies/research done on this topic? It seems like it may be hard to accurately research but I would be interested in reading any research relating to this topic.


Do search using pumpkinseed, bluegill, green sunfish and interspecies. Authors looked at who displaced who.

In my most humble opinion based on what I think I see, when a bluegill and green sunfish are both less than 3" and of similar size, the green sunfish more often than not excludes the bluegill. After that it comes down to who is larger.

Something can complicate that relationship that authors did not report.

Both species are capable of adopting a behavioral pattern that is best described as territoriality. The territory encompasses a food source that is predictable yet defensible. There is a distinctive color pattern both species adopt when doing this. Both sexes do it in both species. Such is not in the literature. I described it to you now and call it brats. Go out and watch your smaller fish in shallows of ponds or streams where seeing is good. Make your judgements of what is real based on observation rather than a post.



"Based on observation rather than a post".

Outstanding! Welcome Jim.

Last edited by sprkplug; 08/16/17 01:17 PM.

"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Jim W. Thanks for returning to the forum. Your credentials speak for themselves. I am sure that your graduate committee quizzed and questioned you much more than what you have endured on this forum. Please consider contributing an occasional article to Pond Boss magazine.
The word on the street is Jim has grown 1 lb bluegills in 10 months indoors. We can learn a lot of good information from this member.


Accuracy important. The best weights were 1.25 lbs in 16 months. Less than 5% make it along such growth curves. Target was / is 1.5 lbs in 18 months. Females and alternative males hurt average.

The sexy part is performance realized using a 35% crude protein catfish feed once fish pushing 25 grams or about 3".

Last edited by Jim Wetzel; 08/16/17 01:37 PM.

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Great Information. I have lots of 3 to 4" Fat bellied GSF in my pond. As matter of fact, last week I caught several and returned them. I was after Tilapia, but GSF and CC bite was heavy. This week my pond has lots of Top Algae, so I haven't fished it, but as soon as it clears, I will try and take some pictures.

I feed Cargil 45% protein in 1/8" size.



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Jim,
That's good to know about catfish food. My larger BG consume a good bit of my 32% catfish feed. I was afraid it was going to waste, and they might not be metabolizing it.

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Last winter we ran an indoor trial on Northern Bluegill starting around 5 g with a 32% crude protein catfish chow comparing it to 35% crude protein catfish feed, 40% CP trout feed and a 45% CP salmon feed. Not saying brand names. The 32% CP did not perform as well in terms of performance or cost effectiveness. Best diets were at top of CP range with one having better performance and another better cost effectiveness when ignoring labor costs. All were provided the same feeding regimen.

This is getting off topic.


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I was just thinking about Dave Willis's favorite reply. "We really don't know." I once asked him "Well if you don't know, who does?" His reply "Beats me, we really don't know or aren't sure on a lot of this stuff. How does it work for you?"

Al Hall and Bob Lusk both live about 150 miles East from me. My ponds don't work like theirs.

I'm not an expert on anything. More of a student with more years with ponds behind me than in front. Most of the things I think I know seem to keep changing.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Originally Posted By: Jim Wetzel
Last winter we ran an indoor trial on Northern Bluegill starting around 5 g with a 32% crude protein catfish chow comparing it to 35% crude protein catfish feed, 40% CP trout feed and a 45% CP salmon feed. Not saying brand names. The 32% CP did not perform as well in terms of performance or cost effectiveness. Best diets were at top of CP range with one having better performance and another better cost effectiveness when ignoring labor costs. All were provided the same feeding regimen.

This is getting off topic.


I will start a new thread.

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Well said Dave. Couldn't agree more.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Welcome again Jim! Glad you are here!

I went to see my dad last night, he was having surgery so I was not able to snap any pictures of the beds. I'm under a truck changing a transmission now, so won't be today either. Although I have looked at the shore in passing yesterday and earlier today. The males are in fact on those beds, and I can see the yellow tinge around the fins. They sprint off if I get close. I know for a fact they have been there two days now. Will check again tomorrow and track dates. Then try to track the return. Rains seem to really effect these beds from what I have seen. I do not know if that is a fact or not...but seems to. Seems they always pop up after a rain. I'm going to start recording this on a piece of paper. I will try to get you pictures soon also.

I'm anxious to see the thread on feed also. Have been feeding TSC trophy 36% this year, but my AM500 came in today. Hope to pick it up tomorrow.

I too love this forum. I have been on so many different ones I have lost count, this one by far is the most friendly and mature. My 7 year old daughters could look at this and I would never give it a second thought. You can't do that on just any forum..well in fact they do when I'm laying around with the computer. lol


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Peach
We were using the same 36% protein from TSC and my BG look awful this year. So I'm going back to cargill 4512 (45%protein-12%fat) like I was before. No sure what's the issue

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May be whey why GSF are off a bit from what I caught last year. I fed optimal by hand, but this year I have built an RC51 design feeder and have been feeding the TSC feed and its almost like watching sleeping fish hit the water. The hand fed optimal was amazing to watch. The fish were brighter colored...or it seemed, and always had full bellies.

When you say yours look awful...what do you mean?


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Originally Posted By: peachgrower
Welcome again Jim! Glad you are here!

I went to see my dad last night, he was having surgery so I was not able to snap any pictures of the beds. I'm under a truck changing a transmission now, so won't be today either. Although I have looked at the shore in passing yesterday and earlier today. The males are in fact on those beds, and I can see the yellow tinge around the fins. They sprint off if I get close. I know for a fact they have been there two days now. Will check again tomorrow and track dates. Then try to track the return. Rains seem to really effect these beds from what I have seen. I do not know if that is a fact or not...but seems to. Seems they always pop up after a rain. I'm going to start recording this on a piece of paper. I will try to get you pictures soon also.

I'm anxious to see the thread on feed also. Have been feeding TSC trophy 36% this year, but my AM500 came in today. Hope to pick it up tomorrow.

I too love this forum. I have been on so many different ones I have lost count, this one by far is the most friendly and mature. My 7 year old daughters could look at this and I would never give it a second thought. You can't do that on just any forum..well in fact they do when I'm laying around with the computer. lol


Criteria I also like to meet is knowing if given male repeating reproductive effort. Females harder to assess but some males have marks. Be certain to rule out hybrids, some have yellow.


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This may be a stupid question. But how do you go about assessing that around the shore? If say I had a net and caught them would they go back to the bed when released?? I know birds are funny about a disturbed nest. Are fish? I know if my daughters see them they'll toss a hook over there. I never thought about if they would return to the nest until this discussion. If caught will they go back and finish their job? I have used binoculars from about 10 to 15ft away and you can make them out really well. I may need to try that again. That was the only way I could see them last year without them darting away.


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I've found that although my fish can be spooky, they will ignore me if I crouch down.


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All fish food protein's not created equal, so just going by the numbers may be misleading. My WAG, is that depending on where that protein came from, BG can't utilize the all of the 36% protein listed on Sportsman's Choice's bags, so the results may not be there. FYI, Cargill also makes Sportsman's Choice. Maybe it's their Game Fish Chow line?


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Originally Posted By: peachgrower
May be whey why GSF are off a bit from what I caught last year. I fed optimal by hand, but this year I have built an RC51 design feeder and have been feeding the TSC feed and its almost like watching sleeping fish hit the water. The hand fed optimal was amazing to watch. The fish were brighter colored...or it seemed, and always had full bellies.

When you say yours look awful...what do you mean?


They are thin

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Jim - Have you performed any feed trials with sunfish and the Optimal fish food?


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Originally Posted By: peachgrower
This may be a stupid question. But how do you go about assessing that around the shore? If say I had a net and caught them would they go back to the bed when released?? I know birds are funny about a disturbed nest. Are fish? I know if my daughters see them they'll toss a hook over there. I never thought about if they would return to the nest until this discussion. If caught will they go back and finish their job? I have used binoculars from about 10 to 15ft away and you can make them out really well. I may need to try that again. That was the only way I could see them last year without them darting away.


Some males have wounds or other imperfections making them unique. More than once yellow grubs have served as distinguishing marks. Angling wounds are good also.

I have angled males of nest many times and released them. They may take a few minutes to return and losses of some brood will occur but usually male will return to broodiness.

You can set up an inverted 5-gallon bucket to use as a seat with good viewing of multiple nest. Once the fish get used to you then your movement will not get them to move off. I have had acclimated fish even bite me once fear is lost. Some interested stories I can relate on that. Some even involve a version of mean-mouth I made in college.

Last edited by Jim Wetzel; 08/16/17 08:55 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Jim - Have you performed any feed trials with sunfish and the Optimal fish food?


No. I have use many brands but we do not like to report them when making comparisons. Science already weak when someone else makes diets, not since also offending manufacturer if their formulation does not do as well as a competitors. We generally characterize feeds based on proximate composition (CP, Lipid, Energy, Ash and Amino Acid Profile and sometime Fatty Acid Profile).

Ideal studies involve diets we make where we know what goes in and control effects of storage which can be more than you want to know.


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Welcome aboard Jim. There are some old studies that indicate that BG and IIRC HBG did as well on 32% as on higher protein feeds. I suspect that those studies were done in the context of cost efficiency for food growout and not max size. Much of the newer feed studies are proprietary and most of us have no access to the results. No doubt each environment is different and that leads to varying results. The task for us all is to present the info for consideration , all the info , in a balanced manor so that readers can make informed choices with knowledge of the risks. Glad you can join in the discussion and presentation.

Last edited by ewest; 08/16/17 09:32 PM.















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Thanks for 'resurrecting' yourself, Doc.

Welcome to Pond Boss!


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Dave Davidson said: "I'm not an expert on anything."

Not true!!!

You've got being a Texas hick down cold!!!!


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Ouch!

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Yep, and getting better every day.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

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Jim, I'm glad you came back.. I enjoyed readying your previous posts.


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Originally Posted By: ewest
Welcome aboard Jim. There are some old studies that indicate that BG and IIRC HBG did as well on 32% as on higher protein feeds. I suspect that those studies were done in the context of cost efficiency for food growout and not max size. Much of the newer feed studies are proprietary and most of us have no access to the results. No doubt each environment is different and that leads to varying results. The task for us all is to present the info for consideration , all the info , in a balanced manor so that readers can make informed choices with knowledge of the risks. Glad you can join in the discussion and presentation.


I need to look back to see if they reared fish in ponds or not. That makes a huge difference. In a pond setting, as stock density increases relative to what the forage base provides, the feed quality becomes more important as you approach the feedlot state. At low stocking densities you can have feed being more impactful by simply improving productivity and quality of forage base.


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I wish I could get good results with BG as I do with CC using the same feed. I can buy 50 pounds of 32% CC pellets for $22 including taxes, whereas 40 pounds of Optimal BG costs $50. Likely the Optimal would have better results for BG, but about half of it would get consumed by CC before the BG get to it. I don't know if results for CC would be much better with Optimal BG than with 32% CC pellets.

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You know I love you, Guvnor!!!


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Originally Posted By: John Fitzgerald
I wish I could get good results with BG as I do with CC using the same feed. I can buy 50 pounds of 32% CC pellets for $22 including taxes, whereas 40 pounds of Optimal BG costs $50. Likely the Optimal would have better results for BG, but about half of it would get consumed by CC before the BG get to it. I don't know if results for CC would be much better with Optimal BG than with 32% CC pellets.


We use what call feeding cylinders to keep grass carp from eating feed intended for Bluegill that might keep most of you catfish out. It is a modification of a feed ring. Screened lid might, I say might, increase value of the feeding structure for the fish as it protects from overhead predators (@#$%!$#@% herons).

If interested I will see about posting an image and better description of design. Setup does not help control competitiveness of Green Sunfish.


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Back to the GSF. When the GSF and BG come together, like in many of the ponds represented in this thread. Jim in your experience and observiation, do the GSF or BG traits dominate? I'm guessing you see hybrid vigor through the first gen. I have read that the GSF traits dominate and over time the HBG look more like GSF than a BG. Can the cross go both ways...male GSF X female BG or male BG x female GSF? If not why? Also I have read that the majority of HBG are male...what causes this? They are not sterile like a mule or do you see that??

Sorry if I'm asking to many questions but when they pop in my head they don't leave until I ask...yeah I was that kid in school. lol


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Originally Posted By: peachgrower
Back to the GSF. When the GSF and BG come together, like in many of the ponds represented in this thread. Jim in your experience and observiation, do the GSF or BG traits dominate? I'm guessing you see hybrid vigor through the first gen. I have read that the GSF traits dominate and over time the HBG look more like GSF than a BG. Can the cross go both ways...male GSF X female BG or male BG x female GSF? If not why? Also I have read that the majority of HBG are male...what causes this? They are not sterile like a mule or do you see that??

Sorry if I'm asking to many questions but when they pop in my head they don't leave until I ask...yeah I was that kid in school. lol


To my eye the F1 hybrid is intermediate. Never played with direction much on that one but to my understanding it will go either way naturally if female of a either species is having a hard time finding a conspecific mate. The hybrid does feed more aggressively but in my food-fish setting the pure Bluegill outperforms the hybrid and pure Green.

Hybrid Green x Bluegill do have reduced reproductive output but possibly for more reasons than simply fertility. Reduced fertility is low when hybrid bred to hybrid due to aneuploidy (look it up) but not as bad when backcrossed to either parental species of even a third to make a trihybrid. Mismatch of behaviors is what I see to be a real problem for the male hybrid where they put nest close together like Bluegill but defend larger area like a Green. This can be a real problem when defending nest bound brood. I suggested that to Roy Heidinger when I was a student but I do not think he gave it much credit. The more I have watched the more confident that mechanism also operates. Behavior of hybrid fry and fingerlings may not be good for avoiding predators like LMB. If you get the chance, try to observe how a Bluegill vs Green Sunfish behave when threatened by a LMB. They differ.

Sex determination mechanism not well worked out. Look for a paper by Wang on the subject. I will assert based on over a hundred broods where we tracked sex ratio that it is genetically based on not like mammals or birds and it involves either multiple loci or alleles. Matings between individual Bluegill can give skewed sex ratios that rival that of hybrids. Skewed can be strong or weak and towards either male or female. Somehow males promoted by heterozygosity and hybrids really push that.

Green x Bluegill are not sterile as indicated above. There are some hybrids that are dead sterile (no fertility) or only one sex is fertile. More funky stuff we have seen where viability is strongly impacted by direction of cross.

More could be said about sex ratios but that would require a sit down.


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As per wikipedia.

Aneuploidy is the presence of an abnormal number of chromosomes in a cell, for example a human cell having 45 or 47 chromosomes instead of the usual 46. It does not include a difference of one or more complete sets of chromosomes, which is called euploidy.


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I think I found the abstract of the article you were talking about...for everyone interested.

There is increasing evidence that temperature effects on sex ratio in fish species are ubiquitous. Temperature effects on sex ratio could be influenced by parent, strain, and population, whether in fish species with temperature-dependent sex determination or genetic sex determination plus temperature effects. In the present study, effects of genotype-temperature interactions on sex determination in bluegill sunfish were further investigated, based on our previous results, using four geographic strains: Hebron, Jones, Hocking, and Missouri. In the Hebron strain, the two higher-temperature treatment groups (24 °C and 32 °C) produced more males than the low-temperature treatment group (17 °C) from 6 days post-hatching (dph) to 90 dph. In contrast, the low-temperature treatment produced more males than the other two higher-temperature treatments in the Jones strain. No significant effects of temperature on sex ratio were detected in the other two strains. Our results from sex ratio variance in different treatment times suggest that the thermosensitive period of sex differentiation occurs prior to 40 dph. Our results further confirmed that genotype-temperature interactions influence sex determination in bluegill. Therefore, to significantly increase the proportion of males, which grow faster and larger than females, a consumer- and environment-friendly approach may be achieved through selection of temperature sensitivity in bluegill.

Zhi-Gang Shen, Han-Ping Wang,* Hong Yao, Paul O’Bryant, Dean Rapp, and Kun-Qian Zhu
Aquaculture Genetics and Breeding Laboratory, The Ohio State University South Centers, 1864 Shyville Road, Piketon, Ohio, 45661


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Originally Posted By: peachgrower
As per wikipedia.

Aneuploidy is the presence of an abnormal number of chromosomes in a cell, for example a human cell having 45 or 47 chromosomes instead of the usual 46. It does not include a difference of one or more complete sets of chromosomes, which is called euploidy.


Chromosome number among the larger sunfishes is conserved. Problem is loci distributions are not. During gamete formation the mismating can break some chromosomes and make others larger. Net effect is so copies of loci lost or gained and in a hybrid that can be accompanied by big chunks of chromosomes. Some of the changes are fusions of chromosomes, splitting of chromosomes, additions and outright losses.


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Jim, you said the GSF and HBG both have an increased area they protect compared to a BG. Does that mean that the nest itself will be larger in size? I have noticed that I have some fairly large nests compared to the rest. Some even look like the nests may combine. Do they clean the area they protect or the clean area is just for the brood?

Thanks for putting up with all my questions!!


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Originally Posted By: peachgrower
I think I found the abstract of the article you were talking about...for everyone interested.

There is increasing evidence that temperature effects on sex ratio in fish species are ubiquitous. Temperature effects on sex ratio could be influenced by parent, strain, and population, whether in fish species with temperature-dependent sex determination or genetic sex determination plus temperature effects. In the present study, effects of genotype-temperature interactions on sex determination in bluegill sunfish were further investigated, based on our previous results, using four geographic strains: Hebron, Jones, Hocking, and Missouri. In the Hebron strain, the two higher-temperature treatment groups (24 °C and 32 °C) produced more males than the low-temperature treatment group (17 °C) from 6 days post-hatching (dph) to 90 dph. In contrast, the low-temperature treatment produced more males than the other two higher-temperature treatments in the Jones strain. No significant effects of temperature on sex ratio were detected in the other two strains. Our results from sex ratio variance in different treatment times suggest that the thermosensitive period of sex differentiation occurs prior to 40 dph. Our results further confirmed that genotype-temperature interactions influence sex determination in bluegill. Therefore, to significantly increase the proportion of males, which grow faster and larger than females, a consumer- and environment-friendly approach may be achieved through selection of temperature sensitivity in bluegill.

Zhi-Gang Shen, Han-Ping Wang,* Hong Yao, Paul O’Bryant, Dean Rapp, and Kun-Qian Zhu
Aquaculture Genetics and Breeding Laboratory, The Ohio State University South Centers, 1864 Shyville Road, Piketon, Ohio, 45661


That's it.


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@peachtree.


You know you were already biting off a lot when managing just the BG versus GSF interaction. Now you are really complicating the whole mess by overthinking it. This other stuff will not relevant unless you do something to promote barnyard folly action.


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Maybe you should rotenone or drain pond to start over. You will sleep better.


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Here are a few more Wang studies. There are some great articles by Neff on the subject where they did extensive diving and observation over years, there are also great genetic articles on Centrarchidae genetics by Bolnick and Near - TEMPO OF HYBRID INVIABILITY IN CENTRARCHID FISHES (TELEOSTEI: CENTRARCHIDAE), plus much more.

Inherent Growth Capacity and Social Costs of Bluegill and Hybrids of Bluegill and Green Sunfish: Which Fish Really Grows Faster?
R. S. Hayward & H. P. Wang
Abstract
There is interest in knowing whether the bluegill Lepomis macrochirus or a hybrid of bluegill and green sunfish L. cyanellus (F1: male bluegill × female green sunfish; hereafter called B × G hybrids) can be grown faster to food market size (225–340 g). The predominant view is that the hybrid grows faster. In this study, the inherent growth capacities (IGCs) of age-1 bluegills and B × G hybrids were determined over four successive 25-d periods (May–August 2000) by holding them individually at 22°C and feeding them to apparent satiation three times daily. The hybrid's IGC was greater during period 1 but fell to only 33% of the bluegill's over the three subsequent periods; the consumption and gross growth efficiency (GGE) of the hybrid showed similar declining patterns. The growth-in-weight trajectory of bluegills crossed above that of the hybrids at about 30 g. Gonadosomatic index values suggested that hybrid growth rates declined below those of the bluegill because the former invested more energy in gonads as age-1 fish. A follow-up study, conducted under similar conditions from August 2000 to March 2001, found that individually held age-1 bluegills starting at 30 g reached more than 100 g in 200 d, gaining nearly twice the weight achieved by hybrids of similar starting weight that were reared in parallel. The costs of social interaction in terms of reduced consumption, growth, and GGE were also quantified for bluegills and hybrids by comparing individually held fish with group-held fish over periods 1–3. Social costs reduced the growth rates of grouped bluegills more than those of grouped hybrids over the 75-d period. Our findings indicate that while the IGC was higher for the hybrids as early age-1 fish, the long-term IGC (e.g., to food market weights) is higher for bluegills; however, this result may be obscured, in part, by the bluegill's higher social costs. Reduction of bluegill social costs in certain culture settings should result in growth rates that approach their higher IGC. Also, social costs varied in response to short-term shifts in the IGCs of both fishes, indicating a previously unknown influence on social interactions in fishes.

Use of Compensatory Growth to Double Hybrid Sunfish Growth Rates
Robert S. Hayward , Douglas B. Noltie & Ning Wang

Abstract
We studied the use of compensatory growth (CG) to grow fish larger than control fish that were fed every day without restriction. Five treatment groups of 10 juvenile hybrid sunfish (F1 hybrid of female green sunfish Lepomis cyanellus × male bluegill L. niacrochirus) received repeating cycles of no feeding and refeeding; fixed no-feed periods of either 2, 4, 6, 10, or 14 d distinguished the treatment groups. No-feed periods elicited the CG state and were immediately followed by days of ad libitum refeeding. Refeeding periods within each treatment group (D2, D4, D6, D 10, or D14) were continued until mean daily food consumption by fish no longer exceeded that of controls fed ad libitum every day (i.e., ad libitum refeeding was continued for as long as hyperphagia persisted, then another no-feed period began). Fish in two groups, D2 and D 14, consumed more food and significantly outgrew controls by 2 and 1.4 times, respectively, in 105-d experiments. Gross growth efficiency (GGE, fish weight gained/weight of all fish consumed) did not differ among the control and treatment groups over full experimental periods; however, GGE was higher than controls during some refeeding periods in group D14 (i.e., when CG was active). Findings show that the CG response can be exploited in some fishes to cause them to substantially outgrow conspecifics that are fed every day without restriction, with no loss of growth efficiency. Our use of hyperphagia to gauge durations of refeeding periods was critical to achieving growth improvements through CG.

A new approach to quantifying morphological variation in bluegill Lepomis macrochirus
Authors S. P. Gerry, J. Wang,D. J. Ellerby

Abstract
Bluegill Lepomis macrochirus showed intraspecific morphological and behavioural differences dependent on the environment. Pelagic L. macrochirus had more fusiform bodies, a higher pectoral fin aspect ratio, a larger spiny dorsal fin area and pectoral fins located farther from the centre of mass than littoral L. macrochirus (P < 0·05). The shape of the body and pectoral fins, in particular, were suggestive of adaptation for sustained high-speed and economical labriform swimming. Littoral L. macrochirus had a deeper and wider body, deeper caudal fins and wider mouths than pelagic L. macrochirus (P < 0·05). Additionally, the soft dorsal, pelvic, anal and caudal fins of littoral L. macrochirus were positioned farther from the centre of mass (P < 0·05). The size and placement of these fins suggested that they will be effective in creating turning moments to facilitate manoeuvring in the macrophyte-dense littoral habitat.


Group holding impedes compensatory growth of hybrid sunfish
. Robert S Hayward e Ning Wang. Douglas B Noltie

Abstract
An earlier study with a repeating no-feed/refeed schedule (D2 schedule) elicited compensatory growth (CG) in age-0 hybrid sunfish (F1: female green sunfish, Lepomis cyanellus×male bluegill L. macrochirus) held individually and fed ad libitum on feeding days. Weight gain under these conditions exceeded that of daily-fed controls. The present study sought to determine whether similar growth improvement would result when hybrid sunfish were held in groups and fed to satiation on the D2 schedule. In Experiment 1, age-0 hybrid sunfish were held in groups of 10 fish per 25-l chamber at 24°C and fed four times daily to apparent satiation on feeding days. Under this regime, fish fed according to the D2 schedule gained less weight than the controls (P<0.10). Experiment 2 was run in an effort to duplicate the results of the previous study. When age-0 fish were held individually at 24°C and fed ad libitum on feeding days, those fed on the D2 schedule gained significantly more weight (P<0.10) than the controls. These results indicate that group holding in combination with satiation feeding impedes the full expression of the CG capacity of hybrid sunfish. The major impediment under group holding may be the negative effects of social interactions on food consumption and growth efficiency.
















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Originally Posted By: Jim Wetzel
Maybe you should rotenone or drain pond to start over. You will sleep better.


I hear ya. No I sleep fine. lol. Since I decided the GSF are okay its all good. Just trying to learn now. Before pond boss I was one of those call everything sunfish a "perch" guys. Never knew a GSF existed. I guess I'm just trying to understand them, their habits and such. I was an agriculture teacher (FFA) for ten years, taught animal science, plant science, and such , now teach welding at a small community college and am a diesel mechanic for my father in law. I just love to learn. Thanks for putting up with me.

Thanks ewest for posting those articles. Never knew such existed. The more I study this, the more I figure out I have been missing out and misunderstanding ponds and fish for so many years.


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Double check your Wang's as not all Wang's are equal.


I am not fan of the compensatory growth concept. We have not been able to repeat it at growth rates that are likely essential for commercial production. I remember back in 1990's when that was coming out. Growth we had with hybrid Bluegill that we thought were poor were better than that where compensatory growth comes into play.


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As you know there is a ton of info out there . Way more than the affiliated Wangs. There is some great stuff available the problem is sorting out all the noise. More to follow. Compensatory growth is interesting as a concept but not real applicable to supplemental feeding.

WRT BG and HBG most folks want a direct comparison but the real comparison is single sex male BG to HBG due to sex % in HBG. Studies support this comparison. See Wang # 1 above for example.

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Originally Posted By: ewest
As you know there is a ton of info out there . Way more than the affiliated Wangs. There is some great stuff available the problem is sorting out all the noise. More to follow. Compensatory growth is interesting as a concept but not real applicable to supplemental feeding.

WRT BG and HBG most folks want a direct comparison but the real comparison is single sex male BG to HBG due to sex % in HBG. Studies support this comparison. See Wang # 1 above for example.


To do the BG versus HBG properly, they need to have the same father and potentially the same spawn date. Then have three or more half sibling families that are reared under very consistent conditions such as the same RAS. You can do that pretty easily using pre-made nests if you can get females to ripen on same day. It does not take much to get females to synchronize as it seems to be their natural way. Then grow out broods to point where the can be tagged and if need be females removed or at least equalized across broods. We priced out such an effort but could not find a way to fund it. Doing it in a RAS may not give same results as ponds


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What does WRT stand for?


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With respect to - common blog/email lingo.
















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Jim, I'm enjoying reading your posts. My problem, and I suspect the problem of other members also, lies in figuring out how to ratchet down your level of intensity to something approachable, applicable, and manageable in a backyard farm pond.

I'm sure there's a goldmine of info in there, I just need to figure out how to peel off a couple tough, outer layers of commercial aquaculture in order to get down to the delicious, tender pondmeister center.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Jim, I'm enjoying reading your posts. My problem, and I suspect the problem of other members also, lies in figuring out how to ratchet down your level of intensity to something approachable, applicable, and manageable in a backyard farm pond.

I'm sure there's a goldmine of info in there, I just need to figure out how to peel off a couple tough, outer layers of commercial aquaculture in order to get down to the delicious, tender pondmeister center.


I see. Focus will then be on feeding regimen and things relating to behavior. Peachtree's interest in outcome is in part due to behavior.

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I need to look back to see if they reared fish in ponds or not. That makes a huge difference. In a pond setting, as stock density increases relative to what the forage base provides, the feed quality becomes more important as you approach the feedlot state. At low stocking densities you can have feed being more impactful by simply improving productivity and quality of forage base. [/quote]

Above should be directly in line.


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Some of this is over my head, but it's about fish, so I just hang on for the ride. I enjoy learning and talking to you guys.

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WRT- with regard to


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Jim and other new readers. There is a lengthy list of abbreviations or acronyms used on this forum. See this from our archives in the heading of Common Pond Q&A (Archives).
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92442#Post92442

I will put this very informative thread about bluegill, green sunfish and hybrid bluegill (HBG) in the archives under 3 respective topics:
Growing Some Big Bluegill
Common pond fish primer (sunfish edition) – Green Sunfish section
Hybrid Bluegill –HBG

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Sunfish genetics chart


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sunfish genetics chart.jpg
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Originally Posted By: ewest
Sunfish genetics chart




I really, really do not like how they got the Bantam Sunfish and GSF as closest kin. I work with both a lot plus played a lot with most of the others in the genus. The Bantam Sunfish based on a lot of things I think should either be more closely allied with Enneacanthus or equally related to Lepomis and Enneacanthus. If Bantam's closest if the GSF, I am a monkeys uncle.

Flier also more like an intermediate between the rockbasses and crappies.


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And one more. The Warmouth!! Something ain't correct their either. Behavior and coloration just not agree with being like the other Lepomis.


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Two things I think need to be to improve upon that study. First, look at multiple nuclear loci plus mitochondrial DNA. Secondly, BG from multiple wild sources so as include multiple CNBG stocks, NBG from the the Mississippi Drainage, NBG from the Mobile River Drainage, HpBG's, and BG from the northern part of their range on the eastern seaboard.

I predict the BG will all of a sudden by diverse like Cutthhroat Trout out west.


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That replaces the same chart posted here years ago but lost due to photo bucket. It is not new and notes that methods are evolving and not a final analysis. The big change in the last 20 years in many fields is the ability to isolate and measure things in much smaller amounts.
















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And more loci faster. They are on the verge of comparing entire genomes.

Paper above would have benefited from better sampling regardless of technique used in the lab. Then part of my problem would have been resolved.

I think the Bluegill should be split into at least three species. Currently that not being case benefits my work but we may need to stop moving things around.


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Here is the other missing chart from the past.



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I am familiar with latter paper as well. Table by itself hard to make sense of without balance of paper. Some of the viability of crosses between species that are not closely related may be impacted by ploidy issues. You should look at effort to make intergeneric hybrids in sunfishes. Hybrids to my eyes as photographed do not look look intermediate.


I have done some Frankenfish action, with later efforts to follow up on paper above, and got really poor hatch when going between genera. For me that was useless because adult are what I wanted to mess with. Very few of the hybrids survived into the larval stage, then you had a lot of hoppers that died as juveniles. When you have to fertilize a couple hundred thousand eggs to get 3 fish large enough to see what they look like, the effort is not worth it.


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The point in the chart for purposes of posting here are the last 3 columns and the concept that reciprocal crosses can be very different. Only a few here are into the ins and outs of genetic theory and practice. We both know that there is a lot out there and it often is contradictory and or confusing for many reasons. Dave Willis and I once tracked down some of the authors of peer reviewed studies on BG/GSF/HBG that had differing results and at the end we came to the conclusion that some of the difference was due to some of the GSF stock not being pure. Even the authors had no answers other than variation.

Last edited by ewest; 08/19/17 05:22 PM.















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Argument we have is that purity is not all that important when even the pure stocks can vary. Plus, considerations in the source hatchery and grading can make a huge difference. Fast growers and slow growers establish their patterns early. Using fish from extremes can mess up the search for understanding.


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There is a lot we don't know and or understand. That is why people keep looking into things and asking why.
















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