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I would love you to start a new thread addressing your research on these 2 topics. WE have lively discussion about the pros/cons of different fish food for sunfish and their various protein contents.


Dudenhoefer, G., J.E. Wetzel and T. Omara-Alawala. 2011. Evaluation of Selected Commercial Starter Feeds for Sunfish Fry Culture. North American Journal of Aquaculture 73(3): 332-338.

Wetzel, J.E., C.S. Kasper, C. C. Kohler. 2006. Comparison of pond production of phase-III sunshine bass fed 32-, 36-, and 40%-crude-protein diets with fixed energy: protein ratios. North American Journal of Aquaculture 68(3):264-270.

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Originally Posted By: jludwig
Originally Posted By: Jim Wetzel
Get it back on track.

Outcomes of competition between these two sunfishes is not just about reproductive output. It is also a function of direct competition and relative abilities of the two species to deal with their environment.

Post #1.


Have there been any studies/research done on this topic? It seems like it may be hard to accurately research but I would be interested in reading any research relating to this topic.


Do search using pumpkinseed, bluegill, green sunfish and interspecies. Authors looked at who displaced who.

In my most humble opinion based on what I think I see, when a bluegill and green sunfish are both less than 3" and of similar size, the green sunfish more often than not excludes the bluegill. After that it comes down to who is larger.

Something can complicate that relationship that authors did not report.

Both species are capable of adopting a behavioral pattern that is best described as territoriality. The territory encompasses a food source that is predictable yet defensible. There is a distinctive color pattern both species adopt when doing this. Both sexes do it in both species. Such is not in the literature. I described it to you now and call it brats. Go out and watch your smaller fish in shallows of ponds or streams where seeing is good. Make your judgements of what is real based on observation rather a post.


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Jim W. Thanks for returning to the forum. Your credentials speak for themselves. I am sure that your graduate committee quizzed and questioned you much more than what you have endured on this forum. Please consider contributing an occasional article to Pond Boss magazine.
The word on the street is Jim has grown 1 lb bluegills in 10 months indoors. We can learn a lot of good information from this member.


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Originally Posted By: Jim Wetzel
Jim Wetzel = Centrarchid

Information above not up to date nor relevant to quality of what is posted.

Post #2, getting smarter


Thanks for that!

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Originally Posted By: Jim Wetzel
Originally Posted By: jludwig
Originally Posted By: Jim Wetzel
Get it back on track.

Outcomes of competition between these two sunfishes is not just about reproductive output. It is also a function of direct competition and relative abilities of the two species to deal with their environment.

Post #1.


Have there been any studies/research done on this topic? It seems like it may be hard to accurately research but I would be interested in reading any research relating to this topic.


Do search using pumpkinseed, bluegill, green sunfish and interspecies. Authors looked at who displaced who.

In my most humble opinion based on what I think I see, when a bluegill and green sunfish are both less than 3" and of similar size, the green sunfish more often than not excludes the bluegill. After that it comes down to who is larger.

Something can complicate that relationship that authors did not report.

Both species are capable of adopting a behavioral pattern that is best described as territoriality. The territory encompasses a food source that is predictable yet defensible. There is a distinctive color pattern both species adopt when doing this. Both sexes do it in both species. Such is not in the literature. I described it to you now and call it brats. Go out and watch your smaller fish in shallows of ponds or streams where seeing is good. Make your judgements of what is real based on observation rather than a post.



"Based on observation rather than a post".

Outstanding! Welcome Jim.

Last edited by sprkplug; 08/16/17 01:17 PM.

"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Jim W. Thanks for returning to the forum. Your credentials speak for themselves. I am sure that your graduate committee quizzed and questioned you much more than what you have endured on this forum. Please consider contributing an occasional article to Pond Boss magazine.
The word on the street is Jim has grown 1 lb bluegills in 10 months indoors. We can learn a lot of good information from this member.


Accuracy important. The best weights were 1.25 lbs in 16 months. Less than 5% make it along such growth curves. Target was / is 1.5 lbs in 18 months. Females and alternative males hurt average.

The sexy part is performance realized using a 35% crude protein catfish feed once fish pushing 25 grams or about 3".

Last edited by Jim Wetzel; 08/16/17 01:37 PM.

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Great Information. I have lots of 3 to 4" Fat bellied GSF in my pond. As matter of fact, last week I caught several and returned them. I was after Tilapia, but GSF and CC bite was heavy. This week my pond has lots of Top Algae, so I haven't fished it, but as soon as it clears, I will try and take some pictures.

I feed Cargil 45% protein in 1/8" size.



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Jim,
That's good to know about catfish food. My larger BG consume a good bit of my 32% catfish feed. I was afraid it was going to waste, and they might not be metabolizing it.

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Last winter we ran an indoor trial on Northern Bluegill starting around 5 g with a 32% crude protein catfish chow comparing it to 35% crude protein catfish feed, 40% CP trout feed and a 45% CP salmon feed. Not saying brand names. The 32% CP did not perform as well in terms of performance or cost effectiveness. Best diets were at top of CP range with one having better performance and another better cost effectiveness when ignoring labor costs. All were provided the same feeding regimen.

This is getting off topic.


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I was just thinking about Dave Willis's favorite reply. "We really don't know." I once asked him "Well if you don't know, who does?" His reply "Beats me, we really don't know or aren't sure on a lot of this stuff. How does it work for you?"

Al Hall and Bob Lusk both live about 150 miles East from me. My ponds don't work like theirs.

I'm not an expert on anything. More of a student with more years with ponds behind me than in front. Most of the things I think I know seem to keep changing.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Originally Posted By: Jim Wetzel
Last winter we ran an indoor trial on Northern Bluegill starting around 5 g with a 32% crude protein catfish chow comparing it to 35% crude protein catfish feed, 40% CP trout feed and a 45% CP salmon feed. Not saying brand names. The 32% CP did not perform as well in terms of performance or cost effectiveness. Best diets were at top of CP range with one having better performance and another better cost effectiveness when ignoring labor costs. All were provided the same feeding regimen.

This is getting off topic.


I will start a new thread.

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Well said Dave. Couldn't agree more.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Welcome again Jim! Glad you are here!

I went to see my dad last night, he was having surgery so I was not able to snap any pictures of the beds. I'm under a truck changing a transmission now, so won't be today either. Although I have looked at the shore in passing yesterday and earlier today. The males are in fact on those beds, and I can see the yellow tinge around the fins. They sprint off if I get close. I know for a fact they have been there two days now. Will check again tomorrow and track dates. Then try to track the return. Rains seem to really effect these beds from what I have seen. I do not know if that is a fact or not...but seems to. Seems they always pop up after a rain. I'm going to start recording this on a piece of paper. I will try to get you pictures soon also.

I'm anxious to see the thread on feed also. Have been feeding TSC trophy 36% this year, but my AM500 came in today. Hope to pick it up tomorrow.

I too love this forum. I have been on so many different ones I have lost count, this one by far is the most friendly and mature. My 7 year old daughters could look at this and I would never give it a second thought. You can't do that on just any forum..well in fact they do when I'm laying around with the computer. lol


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Peach
We were using the same 36% protein from TSC and my BG look awful this year. So I'm going back to cargill 4512 (45%protein-12%fat) like I was before. No sure what's the issue

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May be whey why GSF are off a bit from what I caught last year. I fed optimal by hand, but this year I have built an RC51 design feeder and have been feeding the TSC feed and its almost like watching sleeping fish hit the water. The hand fed optimal was amazing to watch. The fish were brighter colored...or it seemed, and always had full bellies.

When you say yours look awful...what do you mean?


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Originally Posted By: peachgrower
Welcome again Jim! Glad you are here!

I went to see my dad last night, he was having surgery so I was not able to snap any pictures of the beds. I'm under a truck changing a transmission now, so won't be today either. Although I have looked at the shore in passing yesterday and earlier today. The males are in fact on those beds, and I can see the yellow tinge around the fins. They sprint off if I get close. I know for a fact they have been there two days now. Will check again tomorrow and track dates. Then try to track the return. Rains seem to really effect these beds from what I have seen. I do not know if that is a fact or not...but seems to. Seems they always pop up after a rain. I'm going to start recording this on a piece of paper. I will try to get you pictures soon also.

I'm anxious to see the thread on feed also. Have been feeding TSC trophy 36% this year, but my AM500 came in today. Hope to pick it up tomorrow.

I too love this forum. I have been on so many different ones I have lost count, this one by far is the most friendly and mature. My 7 year old daughters could look at this and I would never give it a second thought. You can't do that on just any forum..well in fact they do when I'm laying around with the computer. lol


Criteria I also like to meet is knowing if given male repeating reproductive effort. Females harder to assess but some males have marks. Be certain to rule out hybrids, some have yellow.


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This may be a stupid question. But how do you go about assessing that around the shore? If say I had a net and caught them would they go back to the bed when released?? I know birds are funny about a disturbed nest. Are fish? I know if my daughters see them they'll toss a hook over there. I never thought about if they would return to the nest until this discussion. If caught will they go back and finish their job? I have used binoculars from about 10 to 15ft away and you can make them out really well. I may need to try that again. That was the only way I could see them last year without them darting away.


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I've found that although my fish can be spooky, they will ignore me if I crouch down.


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All fish food protein's not created equal, so just going by the numbers may be misleading. My WAG, is that depending on where that protein came from, BG can't utilize the all of the 36% protein listed on Sportsman's Choice's bags, so the results may not be there. FYI, Cargill also makes Sportsman's Choice. Maybe it's their Game Fish Chow line?


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Originally Posted By: peachgrower
May be whey why GSF are off a bit from what I caught last year. I fed optimal by hand, but this year I have built an RC51 design feeder and have been feeding the TSC feed and its almost like watching sleeping fish hit the water. The hand fed optimal was amazing to watch. The fish were brighter colored...or it seemed, and always had full bellies.

When you say yours look awful...what do you mean?


They are thin

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Jim - Have you performed any feed trials with sunfish and the Optimal fish food?


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Originally Posted By: peachgrower
This may be a stupid question. But how do you go about assessing that around the shore? If say I had a net and caught them would they go back to the bed when released?? I know birds are funny about a disturbed nest. Are fish? I know if my daughters see them they'll toss a hook over there. I never thought about if they would return to the nest until this discussion. If caught will they go back and finish their job? I have used binoculars from about 10 to 15ft away and you can make them out really well. I may need to try that again. That was the only way I could see them last year without them darting away.


Some males have wounds or other imperfections making them unique. More than once yellow grubs have served as distinguishing marks. Angling wounds are good also.

I have angled males of nest many times and released them. They may take a few minutes to return and losses of some brood will occur but usually male will return to broodiness.

You can set up an inverted 5-gallon bucket to use as a seat with good viewing of multiple nest. Once the fish get used to you then your movement will not get them to move off. I have had acclimated fish even bite me once fear is lost. Some interested stories I can relate on that. Some even involve a version of mean-mouth I made in college.

Last edited by Jim Wetzel; 08/16/17 08:55 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Jim - Have you performed any feed trials with sunfish and the Optimal fish food?


No. I have use many brands but we do not like to report them when making comparisons. Science already weak when someone else makes diets, not since also offending manufacturer if their formulation does not do as well as a competitors. We generally characterize feeds based on proximate composition (CP, Lipid, Energy, Ash and Amino Acid Profile and sometime Fatty Acid Profile).

Ideal studies involve diets we make where we know what goes in and control effects of storage which can be more than you want to know.


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Welcome aboard Jim. There are some old studies that indicate that BG and IIRC HBG did as well on 32% as on higher protein feeds. I suspect that those studies were done in the context of cost efficiency for food growout and not max size. Much of the newer feed studies are proprietary and most of us have no access to the results. No doubt each environment is different and that leads to varying results. The task for us all is to present the info for consideration , all the info , in a balanced manor so that readers can make informed choices with knowledge of the risks. Glad you can join in the discussion and presentation.

Last edited by ewest; 08/16/17 09:32 PM.















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Thanks for 'resurrecting' yourself, Doc.

Welcome to Pond Boss!


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