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#474375 - 06/18/17 08:16 AM Need to Understand HBG Genetics
LarryHale Offline


Registered: 01/08/15
Posts: 117
Loc: SC
2 years ago, I stocked 50 HBG in my 1/3 acre pond. They have spawned and I now have what appears to be several hundred. I don't think the YOY can be considered HBG, but also not sure they can be called BG either, considering the cross with a female sunfish. What do you experts think?
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I Was Born Without Gills, Therefore I Fish!

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#474378 - 06/18/17 09:01 AM Re: Need to Understand HBG Genetics [Re: LarryHale]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1112
Loc: NE Missouri
I'm going to follow along on this one. I didn't think my HBG would be so prolific. Feel like I need to know a little more about them.
Thanks for posting.


Edited by SetterGuy (06/18/17 10:44 AM)
_________________________
3 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

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#474386 - 06/18/17 09:49 AM Re: Need to Understand HBG Genetics [Re: LarryHale]
sprkplug Offline
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Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 6943
Loc: Freedom, Indiana
First generation cross, F1.
Offspring of first generation cross, F2.
Offspring of F2, F3. Etc.

I would still consider the offspring to be HBG, although popular concensus states that the further removed from the original F1's the offspring are, the less desireable they become due to loss of hybrid vigor.

This is where the oft repeated warning about HBG turning into GSF, comes from. Scientifically impossible, but for practical intents and purposes, a possible concern. I still recommend always stocking HBG with a predator capable of severely curtailing recruitment, but my experiences thus far seem to point to the F2 and F3 generations as showing good potential for growth also. But, my HBG endeavors are not typical of most pond settings.
_________________________
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.

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#474391 - 06/18/17 10:37 AM Re: Need to Understand HBG Genetics [Re: SetterGuy]
LarryHale Offline


Registered: 01/08/15
Posts: 117
Loc: SC
Originally Posted By: SetterGuy
I'm going to follow along on this one. I didn't think my HSB would be so prolific. Feel like I need to know a little more about them.
Thanks for posting.


Setterguy, did you mean HBG?
_________________________




I Was Born Without Gills, Therefore I Fish!

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#474392 - 06/18/17 10:42 AM Re: Need to Understand HBG Genetics [Re: LarryHale]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1112
Loc: NE Missouri
I've got HSB, SMB, and YP for my predators. Right now, I would say, after stocking HBG two years ago, that they don't seem to be able to keep the HBG population under control. (I stocked very few HBG compared to other species) I catch HBG at a rate of two to one when fishing, comparing it to all other species combined.
I'm just wondering if I'll eventually end up with so many HBG that the only choice I'll have is to start LMB stocking. (Probably to the detriment of all my other fish.)
I had thought that HBG would produce 90% male offspring, so overpopulation wouldn't be a issue. Of course, I also heard they didn't bite swimmers.. wink
_________________________
3 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

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#474394 - 06/18/17 10:45 AM Re: Need to Understand HBG Genetics [Re: LarryHale]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1112
Loc: NE Missouri
Originally Posted By: LarryHale


Setterguy, did you mean HBG?


Yes! Sorry about that.. (fixed it)
_________________________
3 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

Top
#474395 - 06/18/17 10:59 AM Re: Need to Understand HBG Genetics [Re: LarryHale]
John Fitzgerald Online   content


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 1575
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
One of my neighbors stocked HBG and CC over 10 years ago into a 3/4 acre pond. The CC finally were fished out or died off and the HBG population has exploded. Most of the HBG caught now look almost like small GSF and the largest ones that actually look like HBG are no more than a half pound and maybe 7 to 8 inches. They restocked CC in there last year. No LMB are in the pond as far as I know and can tell. Stocking a few FEMALE LMB in that pond would result in some very large LMB in about three years.
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#474396 - 06/18/17 11:33 AM Re: Need to Understand HBG Genetics [Re: SetterGuy]
sprkplug Offline
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Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 6943
Loc: Freedom, Indiana
Originally Posted By: SetterGuy
I've got HSB, SMB, and YP for my predators. Right now, I would say, after stocking HBG two years ago, that they don't seem to be able to keep the HBG population under control. (I stocked very few HBG compared to other species) I catch HBG at a rate of two to one when fishing, comparing it to all other species combined.
I'm just wondering if I'll eventually end up with so many HBG that the only choice I'll have is to start LMB stocking. (Probably to the detriment of all my other fish.)
I had thought that HBG would produce 90% male offspring, so overpopulation wouldn't be a issue. Of course, I also heard they didn't bite swimmers.. wink


Not quite, the original HBG stockers, (the first offspring of the male BG and female GSF, otherwise known as F1's), are reputed to be primarily male, with many studies placing the male bias at 95%. In other words, the fish you initially purchased, which should be F1's, would display the severe male bias. Keep in mind however, that even taking that 95% figure to heart, that still leaves 5 females out of every hundred fish. And depending upon fry viability and survival, which in my opinion needs much greater study, those few females could lead to excessive numbers in the absence of adequate predation.

Also, the male bias carrying over to succeeding generations needs to be thoroughly explored and either proven or disproven, once and for all. Somewhere around here I have the results of one such study, or did have before we moved...not so sure now. I'll bet ewest can dig it up though.

My wag is that the severe male bias does not carry over, but that's just my gut feeling, nothing more.
_________________________
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.

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#474398 - 06/18/17 01:56 PM Re: Need to Understand HBG Genetics [Re: LarryHale]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1112
Loc: NE Missouri
Thank sprkplug,
I didn't and don't, want to hyjack this thread. It's just been getting to be more and more of an issue at my pond. I'm not to the point that I wish I'd never stocked them, but I would like to know a little more about what to expect, and what I might do about it. It's why I've been thinking about cutting off the feeder, to see if that will help control the HBG fry..
_________________________
3 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

Top
#474399 - 06/18/17 02:02 PM Re: Need to Understand HBG Genetics [Re: LarryHale]
John Fitzgerald Online   content


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 1575
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
SetterGuy,
You could get eight or 10 advanced size FEMALE LMB and control the hybrids well, IMO. (catch them out of the nearby COE lake)
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#474400 - 06/18/17 02:09 PM Re: Need to Understand HBG Genetics [Re: LarryHale]
Bill Cody Offline
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Field Correspondent

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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12014
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
All interested need to remember the basic genetics of HBG.

Firstly - The best available hybrid bluegill (HBG) is the result from cross breeding a male bluegill (BG) and a female green sunfish (GSF). Most often, but not always the MALE BG and FEMALE GSF are used by hatcheries for the genetic cross breeding, but there is no rule that is what has to happen. Hybrid BG (HBG) can also occur with either species as male or female. Hybrid bluegill percentage of males ranges from 66%-99% (often 80-95%) depending on the parent species. mBG (male BG) X fGSF (female green sunfish) is a common genetic cross for HBG and results in the higher percentage of males(hopefully 90%-95%). IMPORTANTLY - Percentage of males ranges from often 80%-95% depending on the parent species. If your cross is the alternative cross a fBG (female BG) X mGSF (male green sunfish) then your percentage of males will be in the lower range 66%-80%. See the twist? The source of your stocker HBG and which parent was the MALE is a big very important part of your HBG fishery.

Secondly- Once you have F2 HBG (second generation) the male or female can reproduce with any type of HBG from any generation. Each non-standard cross will likely produce closer to a 50% mix of males & females. Again see the twist? Some of this could be going on in the ponds with the problems described of too much reproduction from HBG.





Edited by Bill Cody (06/18/17 02:16 PM)
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#474401 - 06/18/17 02:10 PM Re: Need to Understand HBG Genetics [Re: LarryHale]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1112
Loc: NE Missouri
Thanks John,
Sounds good. If I could find 8 guaranteed female LMB, I would consider it. Are my YP fry slower and easier to catch than the HBG? I'm not overpopulated with YP, or RES.
_________________________
3 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

Top
#474402 - 06/18/17 02:42 PM Re: Need to Understand HBG Genetics [Re: SetterGuy]
John Fitzgerald Online   content


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 1575
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
Originally Posted By: SetterGuy
Thanks John,
Sounds good. If I could find 8 guaranteed female LMB, I would consider it. Are my YP fry slower and easier to catch than the HBG? I'm not overpopulated with YP, or RES.


If you know (or learn) how to determine LMB sex, you could catch 8 or 10 twelve-fourteen inch females out of the nearby COE lake and bucket stock them. I think the perch fingerlings would be as hard or harder to catch than HBG fingerlings.
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#474403 - 06/18/17 03:05 PM Re: Need to Understand HBG Genetics [Re: LarryHale]
LarryHale Offline


Registered: 01/08/15
Posts: 117
Loc: SC
Bill and Sprkplug, thanks for the education. Guess I need to get some predators into my BOW. Do you think HSB alone can control the HBG overpopulation? I truely think a 1/3 acre pond is too small for LMB.
_________________________




I Was Born Without Gills, Therefore I Fish!

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#474408 - 06/18/17 08:04 PM Re: Need to Understand HBG Genetics [Re: LarryHale]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1112
Loc: NE Missouri
Originally Posted By: LarryHale
Bill and Sprkplug, thanks for the education. Guess I need to get some predators into my BOW. Do you think HSB alone can control the HBG overpopulation? I truely think a 1/3 acre pond is too small for LMB.


Agreed. Good post. It's apparent, I should have known a lot more about HBG before I put any in the pond. Part of the reason I am very reluctant, at this point, to add anything else.
I think I'll just continue to harvest every HBG I come across. The original stockers have grown very well, are big and heavy. I've become much more proficient at cleaning them, and they taste very good. (And if nothing else is biting, the HBG will be.)
If I end up with a million of them, that never get to be half the size of these original stockers, I have no one to blame but myself.
_________________________
3 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

Top
#474409 - 06/18/17 08:16 PM Re: Need to Understand HBG Genetics [Re: LarryHale]
Bill Cody Offline
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Field Correspondent

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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12014
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
LH - 1/3 ac is not too small for LMB. The fewer LMB there are in 0.3 ac the bigger they tend to get and vice versa. At 20 LMB in 0.3ac with lots of food you could see some at 3-4 lbs maybe one or two 5 lb depending on numerous variables. However most common is 1 - 3 lbs for LMB in 0.5 ac or less.

HSB in adequate numbers could control HBG where the main variables are size of stocker HSB and size of the predominant smaller HBG. Remember the fish has to easily fit into the mouth in the HSB which is a small mouth compared to a LMB of the same length.

Owners with too many HBG in smaller ponds (>1ac) could use trapping with larger homemade box traps to remove lots of the intermediate size HBG. HBG readily enter fish traps.

If I had HBG in a smaller pond I would not hesitate adding male LMB caught off nests and HSB. Those two predators would provide predation from two habitats shallow water and more open water. I would use the male LMB because they are easier to obtain and recognize than the females. Neither the male LMB nor HSB would reproduce so you have a good control of the number of predators in the pond i.e. better management of the fishery numbers.

I know of some fish farms that sell wild HBG (mixed parentage) as HBG. Buyer beware.


Edited by Bill Cody (06/18/17 08:25 PM)
_________________________
Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management

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#474416 - 06/18/17 09:39 PM Re: Need to Understand HBG Genetics [Re: LarryHale]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1112
Loc: NE Missouri
I have 25 HSB in my one acre pond now. Although I've never caught one, 10 were in the 6-8" range when stocked in Oct of 2015. I think I've seen them swimming in open water, just below the surface. I'll look into finding male LMB. I have sunken cedars and plastic pipe trees (also sunken) for cover. Very little weed cover along the banks. Hopefully LMB would still do well. I'll do research on identifying male LMB..
Thx!
_________________________
3 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM, HBG, SMB, and HSB..
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

Top
#474418 - 06/18/17 09:51 PM Re: Need to Understand HBG Genetics [Re: LarryHale]
John Fitzgerald Online   content


Registered: 10/27/15
Posts: 1575
Loc: S. end of Elkins, Arkansas
Bill Cody: Why not all female LMB? Do they get too large for what is wanted? BTW, I once caught a male LMB at 6.2 lbs.

Cody answers with - I suggested male LMB instead of female LMB because the males would be easier to see guarding a nest compared to females. Also the males during the spawning season should be emitting white milt when the abdomen is squeezed. Two pretty positive ways to tell you have a male bass. Whereas the female during spawn could be plump or it could be a male with a very full belly. Also a post spawn female could superficially appear as a thin body male. Male LMB will get big enough to adequately control reproduction of HBG.


Edited by Bill Cody (06/19/17 10:18 PM)
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#474419 - 06/18/17 10:00 PM Re: Need to Understand HBG Genetics [Re: LarryHale]
sprkplug Offline
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Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 6943
Loc: Freedom, Indiana
Male LMB are easier to sex as they guard the nests. Either sex will work, and females do have larger growth potential, but in this case the primary objective is to have only one sex in the pond. Easier to do with males.
_________________________
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.

Top
#474427 - 06/19/17 04:35 AM Re: Need to Understand HBG Genetics [Re: LarryHale]
nehunter Offline


Registered: 07/20/15
Posts: 57
Loc: NE
Will the HBG breed with another HBG or will they breed with another green sunfish or full blood blue gill when all three are in your pond?

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#474428 - 06/19/17 07:12 AM Re: Need to Understand HBG Genetics [Re: LarryHale]
sprkplug Offline
Ambassador
Lunker

Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 6943
Loc: Freedom, Indiana
Yes, they will attempt to breed with HBG,BG, and GSF. It's the success of the pairing and the viability of the offspring that is the variable. Lots more study needed in my opinion.
_________________________
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.

Top
#474445 - 06/19/17 10:38 AM Re: Need to Understand HBG Genetics [Re: LarryHale]
ewest Offline
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Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 18987
Loc: Miss.
Keep in mind the basic assumption "there are to many HBG". Be sure that is true first. HBG are aggressive even to the point of being caught out. That may be why you are catching so many.

Some info - not saying it is the only answer but there is a lot of unknown

Reproductive Isolation between a Hybrid Sunfish and
Its Parental Species

MARTIN W. BRUNSON
Rice Research Station
Louisiana Agricultural Experiment Station
Louisiana State University Agricultural Center
Post OJfice Box 1429
Crowley, Louisiana 70527, USA

H. RANDALL ROBINETTE
Department of Wildlife and Fisheries
Mississippi Agricultural and
Forestry Experiment Station
Mississippi State University
Mississippi State, Mississippi 39762, USA

Abstract

Attempts to backcross F1 male bluegill( Lepomis
macrochirus) x green sunfish (Lepomis cyanellus)
hybrids with females of each parental species were unsuccessful
both in ponds and in the laboratory. In laboratory
experiments, fertilization was accomplished but
embryos failed to survive longer than 36 h. In ponds,
nesting and courting activity were observed but successful
reproduction did not occur. Additionally, 1,874
of 1,983 F1 hybrids examined (94.5%) were males.

It is apparent that gametes from BG x GS hybrid
sunfish used in this study are not compatible
with gametes from their parental species.

Of 200 BG x GS hybrid sunfish examined in
the laboratory, 191 (95.5%) were males and 9
(4.5%) were females. During the course of another
study involving 12 farm ponds stocked with these
hybrids, 1,783 hybrids were collected, measured,
and sexed over 24 months (Brunson and Robinette
1986); of these 1,683 (94.4%) were males.
These results are similar to results reported from
Illinois by Childers (1967) for the same hybrid.
Laarman (1973), however, reported 87% hybrid
males in Michigan, and Crandall and Durocher
(1980) reported 66-68% hybrid males in Texas.
These variable sex ratios indicate geographical differences
in genetic makeup within the respective
species, and point to the importance of genetic
background of brood fish in successful reproduction
of desirable hybrids.
The preponderance of males in the F• generation
results in a favorable influence upon fish
growth and average size. The reduced population
fecundity resulting from the low percentage of females
results in low recruitment of F2 hybrids and
consequent avoidance of overcrowded conditions.

Kurzawski and Heidinger (1982) reported
favorable results from the cyclic stocking
of parent species to produce subsequent hybrid
generations and reported no problems with backcrossing.
Lewis and Heidinger (1978b) stated that
backcrossing between hybrids and parent species
apparently does not occur and attributed this to a
probable behavioral isolation. Results in the present
study indicate that a genetic isolating mechanism
may also be involved, at least between the
BG x GS hybrid and its parent species in northeastern
Mississippi.

Evaluation of Male Bluegill X Female Green Sunfish Hybrids for
Stocking Mississippi Farm Ponds

MARTIN W. BRUNSON
Rice Research Station, Louisiana Agricultural Experiment Station
Louisiana State University Agricultural Center
Post Office Box 1429, Crowley, Louisiana 70527, USA

H. RANDALL ROBINETTE
Department of Wildlife and Fisheries
Mississippi Agricultural and Forestry Experiment Station
Mississippi State University
Mississippi State, Mississippi 39762, USA

From an angler's viewpoint, increased growth is
highly desirable .However, perhaps more important
to the angler is the presumed high catchability of
hybrid sunfish. This vulnerability to hook-and line
capture has been alluded to by many authors
but relatively few experimental data exist to substantiate
such statements. Childers (1967) cited
one instance where a population of more than
10,000 BG x GS hybrids was decimated by anglers
during the first week of fishing.

HYBRIDIZATION OF FISHES IN NORTH AMERICA
(FAMILY CENTRARCHIDAE)
by

W.F. CHILDERS



Sex Ratios of F1 hybrids
Sexually mature F1 hybrids were collected from each population and sexed. Of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids, seven were predominately males (RB, BR, and BG were 97 percent males; WG were 84 percent males; and RG, GB, and BW were approximately 70 percent males), two were approximately 50 percent males (GR and RW), and one was predominately female (GW was 16 percent males). Ricker (1948) determined the sex of 428 BR F1 hybrids in Indiana and found them to be 97.7 percent males.

Sex determination in sunfishes is very poorly understood. Bluegills, green sunfish, and their F1 hybrids apparently have 24 pairs of chromosomes, and the sex chromosomes are indistinguishable from the autosomes (Bright 1937). Bright also reported that the chromosomes are so similar in shape and size that he was unable to detect specific differences. Roberts (1964) found that red-ear, bluegill, and warmouth sunfishes each have 24 pairs of chromosomes; green sunfish from North Carolina had 24 pairs; but green sunfish from West Virginia had only 23 pairs.

The unbalanced phenotypic tertiary sex ratios of the F1 hybrid sunfish could result from unbalanced primary genetic sex ratios, specific differences in the strength of sex-determining factors, an overriding of the genetic sex by environmental factors, or differential mortality of the sexes.

Since the WG F1 hybrids were 84 percent males and the reciprocal cross hybrids were 16 percent males, it is possible that the strength of sex-determining factors of warmouths are 5.25 times more powerful than those of green sunfish. Specific differences in the strength of sex-determining factors cannot alone explain the sex ratios of the remaining eight kinds of viable hybrids, since none of these were predominately females.

RB and BG F1 hybrids were both 97 percent males. If differential mortality were the cause of these unbalanced sex ratios, much of the mortality would have had to occur after the swim-up fry stages, since in the stripping experiments total mortality between fertilization and the swim-up fry stages was only 14 percent for the RB and 27 percent for the BG F1 hybrids.

It is not known which sex is the heterogametic condition for the sex chromosomes of the four experimental species; however, Haldane (1922) formulated a rule which furnishes a clue: “When in the F1 offspring of a cross between two animal species or races, one sex is absent, rare, or sterile, that sex is always the heterozygous sex.” Using Haldane's rule, Krumholz (1950), in a study concerning BR F1 hybrids, pointed out that the males of both bluegills and red-ear sunfish are probably homozygametic for sex and the females heterozygametic. The application of Haldane's rule to all possible F1 hybrids produced from red-ear sunfish, bluegills, and green sunfish indicates that the female is the heterozygametic sex in these three species. Hybridization of male warmouths with females of the three Lepomis species resulted in partial or complete lethals, suggesting that in the warmouth the male is the heterogametic sex.

4.2 Reproductive success of hybrids
The reproductive success of each of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids was investigated in one or more ponds. The occurrence and abundance of F2 hybrids were determined by seining, trapping, shocking, poisoning or draining the ponds after the F1 hybrids were one or more years of age. RB, BR, and BG failed to produce abundant F2 generations when in ponds which contained no other species of fishes. In contrast to these results, BR F1 hybrids produced abundant F2 generations in two ponds in Indiana (Ricker 1948). The other seven kinds of F1 hybrids produced abundant F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing no other fishes. Three of the seven kinds of F1 hybrids which produced large F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing no other fishes were also stocked in ponds with largemouth bass. RG F1 hybrids and GB F1 hybrids, when stocked with largemouth bass, produced only a few F2 hybrids. No F2 hybrids were found in the pond stocked with BW F1 hybrids and largemouth bass. WG F2 hybrids and GW F2 hybrids were stocked in ponds containing no other fishes. Both of these F2 hybrids produced large F3 populations.

Backcrosses, outcrosses, a four-species cross, and a three-species cross involving F1 hybrids are listed in Table III. The BW × B backcross was made by stocking adult male BW F1 hybrids and adult female bluegills in a pond which contained no other fishes. The other 12 crosses listed in Table III were made by stripping gametes from ripe adults and rearing the young to the free-swimming fry stage in the laboratory.

R × RW, W × RW, B × RW, G × RW, R × GB, and RB × W young were killed after they developed into free-swimming fry because of the lack of ponds in which they could be stocked. All six kinds of fry appeared to be normal and probably would have developed into adults. Free-swimming fry of the remaining six crosses in the laboratory were stocked in ponds and did develop into adult fishes. BW × B, G × GW, and B × RG populations produced large numbers of young.



Edited by ewest (06/19/17 11:07 AM)
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#474464 - 06/19/17 02:13 PM Re: Need to Understand HBG Genetics [Re: ewest]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4293
Loc: SE Kansas
One other thing to consider. What if a hand full of contamination fish other than the stocked fish got in the pond at some point?

Say for example a few GSF or a few BG or a few of each. Then even if the F1's did not produce successful F2's, there could still be lots of recruitment from the contamination fish or the contamination fish crossing with F1's.

Unwanted fish getting into ponds unannounced has been known to happen.


Edited by snrub (06/19/17 02:14 PM)
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#474465 - 06/19/17 02:29 PM Re: Need to Understand HBG Genetics [Re: snrub]
LarryHale Offline


Registered: 01/08/15
Posts: 117
Loc: SC
Originally Posted By: snrub
One other thing to consider. What if a hand full of contamination fish other than the stocked fish got in the pond at some point?

Say for example a few GSF or a few BG or a few of each. Then even if the F1's did not produce successful F2's, there could still be lots of recruitment from the contamination fish or the contamination fish crossing with F1's.

Unwanted fish getting into ponds unannounced has been known to happen.


Great point, snrub!
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I Was Born Without Gills, Therefore I Fish!

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#474466 - 06/19/17 02:48 PM Re: Need to Understand HBG Genetics [Re: LarryHale]
sprkplug Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 6943
Loc: Freedom, Indiana
The studies posted by ewest are the same ones I used to have. Actually, they are the same ones that get presented everytime. Look at the dates when some were published, going on 50 years old or older.I wish someone would take a fresh look, with fresh experimentation. If the HBG are not prone to recruitment amongst themselves, nor are they likely to cross and backcross, where did the multitude of stories regarding reversion to GSF come from?
_________________________
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.

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