Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Starting over: Trout, LMB or SMB?

I have a .5 to .75 acre pond in my back yard in Northern Michigan. We had the pond dug in 2009. It is fed by ground water, an artesian well and a flow through creek. I asked for 20 feet of depth, but I am guessing is it probably more like 15 feet deep in the deepest areas.

In 2009 and 2010 I stocked 3-5 inch trout: Rainbows, Browns and a few Brookies as well as FH minnows. I fed the trout twice a day during most periods of open water. The rainbows did very well, surviving the dog days of summer and the thick ice cover of winter. Last year the remaining rainbows were in the 10 to 12 pound range. It appears all the trout are gone now (unless there are some wary Browns that don't break surface to eat pellets).

In 2010, I bucket stocked a few small LMB, BG and a bunch of Pumpkinseed Sunfish from a small local lake.

Initially, I saw signs of panfish beds in various areas, but after a couple years, it appeared that all of the warm water fish were gone. Kids fishing this year have only been able to catch Creek Chubs.

The pond does not have any good gravel bedding areas. The water is coffee colored due to tanic acid from White Pines along the feeder creek.

Great Blue Herons regularly stalk the shallows, although I haven't seen any yet this year. I get 1 or 2 River Otters, who visit the pond for a few days twice a year. This Spring it appeared they were eating mostly Crayfish.

Pond is loaded with frogs. It appears the only fish are Creek Chubs and FH minnows. You can see the FH minnows nesting on the underside of lily pads.

I like the idea of a self sustaining and diverse fish population, but I am wondering whether I should stick with what I know works: Rainbow Trout? When the water is cool, they put on quite a show for guests at feeding time.

Maybe the warm water fish are more easy prey for the River Otters? Or they don't like the tanic acid? Or they need better breeding habitat (gravel areas)? Or, it could be I have not given them a realistic chance by proper stocking?

What would you do?

C&S, welcome (relatively speaking since this is post #6 for you !! from SW MI. You are lucky you have good source of cool water that allows you keep trout year around. Many wish they had that!

There is a lot to consider here including having a need to have a better idea of what your goals would be as that would guide the next steps.

While you research, pursue options and wait for more feedback, I would say you may be forage poor. Unless you have a 'put and take' fish like trout and have a regular pellet feeding program, any other self-sustaining population would need more forage.

You might want to use this opportunity without predators to build a diverse forage base with crayfish (how many and what type do you have now, can you trap some and identify?). You could then give time for the FHM to self-populate. They should be doing that already if no predators and plenty of spawning locations (lily pads). How about various shiners, since you have creek in flow you should be able to establish a variety of dace, mudminnows, chubs, golden shiners, spotfin shiners etc.

I'm wondering if you have enough water exchange that you can get away without aeration? It would seem in a deep BOW of that size that you would need aeration especially with trout?

To add to what CC said above, I would like to know more about the "feeder creek". Does it empty into your pond?

Do you have aeration and do you run it during the winter?

No matter what fish you put in, the Otters will be a continuing problem.

Waiting for answers to esshup's questions. Plus how much ice thickness during winters? Typically How deep is the snow cover and how long does it persist? Winter kill and tannin water conditions need to be discussed.

Wow! Thanks for the quick responses.

Some answers and more info:

Feeder creek dumps directly into the pond from the SE and flows out at the NE corner. Nice, because the wind blows all the pollen, leaves and junk from the surface to the exit culvert. During most of the year, it is a small creek capable of supporting nothing larger than small Creek Chubs. Obviously, it rushes like a monster and floods the pond in the Spring and Fall. Some Rainbows have tried unsuccessfully to spawn upstream in the feeder creek. Nice gravel, but not enough flow for spawning Trout.

At the moment, both culverts are washed out from flooding. The exit culvert sets the level of the pond. Due to erosion around the exposed culvert, the pond level is down 1.5 feet. I am thinking I need to cement the exit culvert in and maybe just install a walking bridge over the point where the creek enters the pond. I will need a state permit for either project.

I have never run any aeration. I figured I didn't need it, because of the flow through creek. I was also worried I might just mess things up - especially in the Summer. Most of the Trout manage to survive the hottest days in late August. I have seen big Rainbows become very stressed and die off due to extreme warm conditions at the end of Summer, but only a few. The surface temp of the pond during the peak heat of Summer gets very warm.

I have never noticed any dead fish from winter kill. I understand that it could be happening, and they could be at the bottom of the pond. I was hoping/assuming that the creek flow was the saving grace for Winter. Ice gets thick in Winter, but not nearly as thick as on the bigger water nearby. Maybe, 6 to 8 inches. I think it is limited by heavy snow on top of ice and warmer ground water. Pond is iced over December through February/Early March.

The FH minnows should be doing pretty well, since their only real predator at the moment is Creek Chubs. I know the Chubs are ferocious.

I am going to set some minnow traps tonight and see if I can identify the Crayfish and whether I get anything but FH minnows and Creek Chubs.

I am willing to dissuade the River Otters, if necessary. Although, they are pretty bold and just click at the family when we are in the yard.

Last twist: because of the flow through creek, I discovered I need a state permit to stock fish. My creek feeds one of the premier SMB fisheries in the state, so while I don't think they will have a problem with Trout, SMB, Perch or Walleye (which are all in the lake fed by the creek), the state might be concerned about LMB?

Response to permit request is supposed to take less than a week. There is an excellent state approved fish farm nearby where I can get any of these fish. They are famous for their Trout.

I appreciate all the experience and wisdom on this forum!

I am getting antsy about sending in my fish stocking permit request.

I am leaning toward: Rainbows, SMB and YP.

Assume pond is only 1/2 acre.

Anybody have numbers recommendation, or think I should do something else?

Hatchery has YP available in 3-5" or 5-7" ranges and SMB at 3-5" range.

I can feed the Rainbows and was thinking about getting 75 4-6" fish.

I am clueless about the correct number of SMB and YP to get.

Thoughts on substituting some Browns for Rainbows?

Thanks!

I'd think about aerating in the winter or when the pond is iced over. Not in the summer due to the reasons you stated.

Also on the stocking permit, it's better to pick fish that are in the water downstream, you will have a better chance on getting approved.

No more than 50 SMB and you could stock more YP if they are pellet trained and you will be feeding every day the pond water is over 55°F-60°F. I'd throw a couple hundred YP in there and see how they do.

Dissuade the otters by whatever legal means you can. They will eat a number of fish, and will target the biggest/slowest ones first.

Esshup, thanks for the advice on stocking numbers and the winter aeration.

I think I will submit my stocking permit application tomorrow.

If the YP are "pellet trained" will they eat the same floating food as the Trout?

I will research what I need for winter aeration, and I might have more questions.

Of course, I was planning to dissuade the Otters by legal means. (Not winking). It is tough, because one of the main reasons I built the pond was to observe wildlife in the backyard. The Otters are very entertaining when they show up, but it seems like I get more of a kick out of them than my kids or my wife, and I can't let them decimate the fish in my pond.

If you stock esshups' recommended numbers of SMB-YP then use the rainbow as a bonus fish stocked at low density around 15-20/ac. The more you reduce the SMB-YP for more trout you can add. The more you overstock or higher the standing crop of total fish, the more it will reduce your water quality and increase your chance of a fish kill esp during winter.

Thanks Bill Cody. Okay, so tap the brakes.

How about 40 rainbows, 10 Browns, 40 SMB and 100 YP(larger size)?

I guess we are worried about the Winter when I am not feeding and they are all huddled into the same area fighting for oxygen and nutrients?

I do plan to look seriously into winter aeration.

"How about 40 rainbows, 10 Browns, 40 SMB and 100 YP(larger size)?" That is a reasonable number for 0.5 acre. Your YP will grow biggest if they are pellet trained when you buy them. Adult YP are rather difficult to train to eat pellets. Trout pellets will work for growing YP. Plan on your SMB eventually eliminating your minnows unless the pond has ample dense cover.

I suspect your bass and pumpkinseed winter killed. Trout likely survived winter by moving close to the inlet stream with oxygen.
Do you live at the pond to monitor winter aeration?

Great. Thanks.

The pond is right out my back door, so I will be able to closely monitor winter aeration.

Stocking Permit? Never heard of that. We don't need a stinking stocking permit.

How would anyone know?

The people that furnish the fish have to check. We (the people that furnish the fish) have to have a copy of the stocking permit in our possession before stocking the fish. If not, and the pond owner gets caught, we get in just as much trouble and pay as much in fines as the pond owner.

I know, I know, but that is the law in Michigan. Not here in Indiana though!!

I just checked my minnow trap.

After less than a day, it was loaded with Creek Chubs. I would estimate 1.5 pounds. 10+ in the 6 to 7 inch range.

I took a quick look, but it did not appear there was anything but Creek Chubs in the trap.

I knew I had Creek Chubs, but it looks like the pond is teeming with them. If the pond is at it's breaking point with Creek Chubs, I am guessing this could cause a problem for the fish I plan to stock?

A few mature Bass would have a field day.

Michigan considers it public water, because of the flow through creek.

If it's public water, does the public have the right to fish it?

Lots of small ponds around here get no other stocking than bucket stocking from other ponds or public waters.

The public can't fish on my pond unless they can navigate to it on public waters - which they can't. I guess they could wade 3/4 mile up the creek from the downstream public lake?

I am a strong supporter of private property rights, but I also understand the state's interest preventing the destruction of natural resources by the propagation of invasive and unwanted species.

In light of the value of fishing to Michigan's economy, this type of regulation seems reasonable.

Again, the only reason I will need a permit is because fish stocked in my pond could theoretically make it downstream to a public lake.

Given a large enough flood, fish could likely make it into public waters from a large percentage of ponds in the entire country. To me, the permitting doesn't make a lot of sense, other than to enrich state coffers.
My ponds are on a slight hillside, but I bet some of my BG fingerlings made it the 560 feet or so from the spillways to the small creek on my property, then the next 1/4 mile to the White River in the big flood we had a couple of months ago.

I have spent some time thinking and reading about aeration as a result of esshup and Bill Cody's comments.

I now think I was being lazy or naive (kidding myself) that the creek flowing through my pond was a water quality panacea.

My pond is oval with a relatively large island in the middle of it. The creek probably flows through a quarter to a third of the pond. The 2/3 which does not get the fresh water inflow is probably a dead zone during much of summer and all of winter.

I was trying to blame the river otters, but, of late, most likely all they have eaten has been creek chubs and crayfish. I am sure most if not all of my gamefish died due to water quality issues.

I have decided to halt the fish stocking operation until I get the pond aerated. Based on the layout of my pond and yard, what makes the most sense is to run electric to the island and put the air pump on the the island.

I am going to try to get some accurate depth measurements over the weekend and then start a new thread (in the appropriate section) asking for advice on aeration equipment.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. All of the advice is appreciated.

Rethink the air pump on the island. Make sure it is the best location. You likely only need to aerate the bottom 1/2 of the pond which is likely the deepest section?.

SMB at 12"+ should eat a lot of creek chubs. Good trapping techniques could remove many more. The chubs are likely all spawning at the creek mouth or in near areas upstream.

This morning I spent a bunch of time reading aeration posts and measuring with a walking wheel.

Bill Cody, your suggestion of rethinking the island is spot on. I am now thinking it is not worth the expense or hassle to run electricity to the island. I guess it is easier and cheaper to run and bury air lines than electric lines.

I also got out in a kayak today and got an accurate depth for the first time. The deeper part which benefits from the creek flow is 12 feet deep. The southern section which does not get fresh inflow is 9 feet deep.

Does anybody have any advice on compressor pumps and diffusers (or should I start a thread in the aeration section)? I was thinking I would aerate both sections of the pond. As long as the pump is not too noisy, I was considering placing the pump where the 200 foot line starts by the house.

Before you get any aeration suggestions go to google planimeter and measure the oblate oval size of each basin. Include in the size water that is mostly deeper than 2.5 to 3 ft. Do not include connecting channels. From your prior description as a rough estimate it looks to me you have around 0.27 ac in the big basin and 0.15ac in the small basin.
http://acme.com/planimeter/

C&S, I am in the process of getting electricity and then aeration in.

One reason to prefer air tubes to buried electric lines is that electricity and water don't mix well. Many people have been shocked and even electrocuted in the water due to electrical problems. Much safer to keep electricity on shore, in my opinion.

Wow, Bill. That is a very cool web app that I did not know was out there.

Your numbers were just about exactly what I got on the Planimeter site (.25 for the Northern basin and about .17 for the Southern basin). The narrow channels between the basins are 6 to 7 feet deep. The banks are steep pretty much all around the pond. If I include the deep water channels with the smaller basin, it brings the small basin up a little above 1/4 acre.

Also, more precise depth readings would probably be 11 1/2 feet for the bigger basin and 8 1/2 feet for the smaller basin.

I watched a YouTube video where the guy was extolling the virtues of a Hiblow 100LL linear diaphragm compressor as being quiet and efficient for aerating his pond. Does this seem workable? Hiblow has a larger 120LL size? One online seller rates both models for 12 foot maximum depth?