Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations neighbor installed field drain tile *frowns*

peoria county, illinois

neighbor fall of 2016 installed new drain tile in his field and then cut across my land to end drain tile in my grass waterway. that feeds my lake.

neighbor never obtained permission to run drain tile on my land, and i am not seeing any easements from previous owners of both properties were an easement might have been.

this was a new drain tile install.

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lake is approx 1.25 or 1.5 acres in size.
i want to say 24 or 30 max depth.
i am guessing 15 feet average depth
triangle shape more 3 sided pyramid with center being deepest.

stocking
--channel catfish
--large mouth bass
--bluegil
--i want to say 2 white almur grass carp in there. currently. i need to re check old receipts to find out, and wonder if still even alive. the older ones i know have recently died in last few years.

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issues
--lots of extra silt coming into lake. from drain tile itself, but also the grass waterway has never seen this much water. and not design to deal with amount of water and is causing additional erosion.
--of 550 feet of grasswaterway, the drain tile by passes 250 feet of it.

--massive algae bloom, to point 1/2 if not 3/4 of surface has been covered in algae over the last week. it has never been this bad.

--the over flow on lake is working perfectly, and is maintaining constant max water level.

--my bridge, use to have 12" or more dirt under both ends, and now the soil on shore/banks of lake have suddenly begin collapsing. resulting in both ends of the bridge to collaspe into the water. the middle of the bridge, has 2 sets of poles holding it up. but the ends different story. the bridge been then for over 20 plus years without any sort of issue of shore/banks eroding.

--dock that use to hinge on shore/bank and then float out on the water with 55 gallon drums. now requires you step over water to get on it. due to sudden erosion.

--overall shore/banks have eroded to point trees that line the shore/bank have become exposed.

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i am looking at most likely requiring "sediment ponds" being built into the grass waterway. so as to beef up extra filtration to reduce silt going into lake.

most likely looking at a windmill aeration system, to help deal with low level dissolved oxygen levels from drain tile water. (3/4 mile to nearest grid utility pole)

it is more likely just placing poles under bridge will help raise up ends, but not sure what i am going to do about extending bridge to the actual shore/banks. bridge built out of i want to say 2x10's or 2x12's, i want to say 50 feet long, approx 3 feet wide. with 5.5x1 deck boards.

the dock, most likely going to require a small retaining wall out of 6x4 or 6x6's to stabilize shore/bank to re connect it.

most likely will need to install an extra culvert down below the dam in order to deal with extra water going through lake.

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will be contacting
--EPA,
--agriculture department,
--finding out if i am in a water district and contacting them
--soil and water conservation government agency
--not sure if i will have to deal with IDOT (Illinois department of transportation) to deal with erosion.

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i have most stuff documented. but getting serious and trying to get everything lined up and documented. before most likely ending up in court to resolve issues.

any suggestions welcomed, of what to do / try to resolve issues.

Sorry to hear that. My only suggestion is to do what you are doing, getting everything documented before proceeding.

Have you asked the neighbor about the Drain?

Did you own land when it was being put in?

If not, did previous owner give permission?

That sounds like A LOT of water flow, how big is drain pipe?

If it's on your land, you could remove that portion and put in a small sediment pond on your land at the end of the tile.

Has the drain tile caused the watershed of your pond to increase? ie water that was previously flowing into some other valley now flows into your drainage area?

Are there terraces in the field? Does the drain tile have risers (water inlets) out in the field in the terrace pans? Most drain tile outlets I have seen have relatively clear water coming out since the water is filtered though several feet of soil before entering the pipe.

sounds like you definitely need to visit with the neighbor.

Drain laws vary, but you may be able to get the tile run around your pond so water will not end up in it at your neighbors expense. However, you will lose that watershed. If a sediment pond is more desirable for you, and cheaper than the drain extension, your neighbor may go for that. Yo should find out the drainage laws and then talk to your neighbor to see if you can both work things out before involving others. The NRCS may be able to help with the water drainage laws.

contacting neighbor and installation company = ignored.
i have own land for a few years, and been family owned for years.
neighbor just bought there property in last year or 2.

the actual property of neighbors use to be a nightmare farmer, dead cows, pigs, sheep left in creaks to rot, not feeding animals, not dealing with manure, not dealing with fences etc... just swapped to a different type of problem now

i do not remember right off, i want to say 8" maybe 10" drain tile. with approx 1.5" to 2.25" sheet of water coming out of it.

Have you talked to the neighbor to see why he did what he did? In Texas you best not come on another persons property without permission much less build something on it. I would go talk with him first and depending on his answer go from there.

it is illegal for me to actually remove another person drain tile. even though it was illegally installed.

getting court records hopefully tommorw.

hopefully neighbor/installer submitted required drain tile map to county to show location of drain tile. if not that is some sort of misdemeanor / felony or something (do not remember exact wording for not submitting map)

the neighbors land near my property is mostly flat. surface run off was not a lot but still enough. with drain tile, most likely a much larger area now drains onto my property.

the other side of neighbors property most likely takes care of half of neighbors field, while i am receiving at min most like 1/4 to 1/2 the water now.from there fields now.

because of last nightmare farmer that owned property, i am positive there was no drainage tile ever installed on neighbors property.

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drain tile freshly installed, so all the silt from digging trench, installing drain tile, settling of dirt in trench, is all coming out. making a large mess of things.

extra water coming onto property is also causing erosion issues on my property adding to additional load of silt into lake.

there is no way to predict if silt will settle down over the next couple years coming out of drain tile.

while portion of it is silt, it is also all the other water parameters that are also causing algae bloom explosion in the lake.

I guess I'm at a loss. Are you saying that your current neighbor installed a new drain tile field, on your property while you owned your property? Were you there physically when this happened? That is, did you physically watch it happen?

If this is true, how in the blazes do you stand by and watch that happen?

I'm trying to wrap my brain around this and put myself in your shoes, if this is what happened.

the lake been there for over i would say 40 plus years (older than me)

drainage laws state i have ability to claim right of X amount of water that comes from neighbors land due to been like that for years. but also at same time, to much water i also have a right. (moderation) of water should be had.

due to fields, lake, slope of land, i doubt running a pipe all the way through my property to a creek on opposite side would be possible. there is at min one spot that runs up higher between neighbors drain tile and creek.

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sediment pond only thing i can come up with. that would be "long term" filtration.

just tossing a bunch of rocks in remaining grass waterway is more meant for flash flooding, and dealing with erosion of sides and bottom.

tossing in a few lines of rocks across the grass waterway again just used to slow down water, not really to act as a filter to remove silt. (not enough dwell time) and not enough (surface area per say) to actually trap fines and silt.

tossing in say a fabric across grass waterway, will more likely result in water going under and around it, causing erosion of the grass waterway.

trying to dig a "deep big hole" for a filter chamber. would mean concrete re-enforced sides. due to grass waterway sides are already near point of grass holding and keeping erosion at bay.

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i think i can get 50 feet wide, by 50 feet or so long sediment pond in. more of a "rhombus shape" nearest to lake.

with 2 smaller sediment ponds nearing the drain tile. to help slow down the water and act more as pre filtering. (to much slope between drain tile and lake)

checking GPM tommorw to see how much water i am getting from drain tile. will more likely predict what is needed for sediement pond. or something else completely.

the lake been there for over i would say 40 plus years (older than me)

drainage laws state i have ability to claim right of X amount of water that comes from neighbors land due to been like that for years. but also at same time, to much water i also have a right. (moderation) of water should be had.

due to fields, lake, slope of land, i doubt running a pipe all the way through my property to a creek on opposite side would be possible. there is at min one spot that runs up higher between neighbors drain tile and creek.

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sediment pond only thing i can come up with. that would be "long term" filtration.

just tossing a bunch of rocks in remaining grass waterway is more meant for flash flooding, and dealing with erosion of sides and bottom.

tossing in a few lines of rocks across the grass waterway again just used to slow down water, not really to act as a filter to remove silt. (not enough dwell time) and not enough (surface area per say) to actually trap fines and silt.

tossing in say a fabric across grass waterway, will more likely result in water going under and around it, causing erosion of the grass waterway.

trying to dig a "deep big hole" for a filter chamber. would mean concrete re-enforced sides. due to grass waterway sides are already near point of grass holding and keeping erosion at bay.

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i think i can get 50 feet wide, by 50 feet or so long sediment pond in. more of a "rhombus shape" nearest to lake.

with 2 smaller sediment ponds nearing the drain tile. to help slow down the water and act more as pre filtering. (to much slope between drain tile and lake)

checking GPM tommorw to see how much water i am getting from drain tile. will more likely predict what is needed for sediement pond. or something else completely.

they pretty much snuck on property and went at it. within a couple hours. and then high tailed it off property and left for the day.

me physically, that day, (medical issues), at most look out window and take picture, let alone getting dress and driving. might as well called an ambulance for me if i dared to venture out due to medical issues.

Got it. I would have certainly called the police if I would have saw them out the window.

original print screen from google maps, then edited version.
overview neighbor = top right.
me = bottom left.

moss, extremely high wind taking the picture blowing it all towards the bridge





bridge




dock

drain tile rock only deals with errosion of the sides, the dirt removed for rocks is tossed just tossed out of picture and the the right. between field and grass waterway.


tree dug out and tossed between field and grass waterway (unable to mow between field and grass waterway



were they ripped out fence, and installed drain tile.

Two thoughts (that you've probably already thought of):

1) Your post says "new drain tile". Is your neighbor expanding the drained (and now tillable) area? If so, he could be running afoul of some wetland protection rules, and the DNR would probably like to hear about it.

2) Rather than a battle with you, would the neighbor be agreeable to replacing and extending the new drain tile with a solid pipe that would go to your exit? You'd obviously lose that direct inflow, but it doesn't sound like it's much of an asset at the moment. He gets to drain his fields and continue to make money, and you get your pond back. Win/win.

Does this guy not like you or something??? Why would he all of a sudden just do this knowing he is in the wrong and on your land? I would for sure call the police if he destroyed my fence line!!!! What the hell is his problem???

RC

go dig it all up and clog up the ends of the drains of your property , or do they work that way?

Are you suggesting a "banana in the tailpipe" solution? (reference to old movie).

Personally, I think having drainage from the tile is much better than surface runoff in the long run. It is a little confusing why there are so many nutrients running out of the tile though, unless it has build up in the soil over the years and installing the tile is now rinsing it out.

What would tick me off the most is the ruined fence and the lack of asking permission. I may not be so polite to the pipe end as you are being.

I also question the long-term negative impact of the field tile, but trespassing on someone else's land without permission from the owner (or someone with appropriate authority) is wrong. At least a notification should be required by law. In my state, a landowner can pass water downhill without permission (water as the common enemy). However, rerouting water or crossing another person's land needs official approval.

Something just doesn't add up here.

bottom line is your pond is in a watershed with a high percentage of crop field. You are always going to have siltation and nutrient problem causing algae. I doubt the drain tile has had that much effect, although they had no right to install tile on your side of the property line imo.

just getting in, been down in the bottoms, trying to check out the erosion between the lake and creak.

*_insert lots of nasty words_* ya i need to cool down.

3 feet deep, 3 feet wide. channel eroded. drain tile that was there. is no longer to be found. you can see fresh roots sticking out along the eroded path. as in just being eroded away recently. heck just digging out a trench with a backhoe or excavator. leaves a better looking tench and roots you can see dangling, compared to this mess.

darn near fell down one spot.

i know the area in the bottoms, i need to wait till late fall/early winter when all leaves fall off trees, and vegetation dies back to get a good grasp of issues. area is just to steep to begin with to mow let alone walk and lots of trees and brush/bushes in the area. but the path used to get to front portion of pasture is completely gone. if you drive truck, you go nose down and rear end ends up sticking clear up in the air. an ATV or UTV would be deadly. the eroded path is straight (bubble level) level vertically. not V or wide U shape. but right angle box shaped eroded away. not even a slight difference right at top of ground running along side of the eroded area. just looks like a backhoe went straight through the area.

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DNR (department of natural resources) thanks for lead czimmerm.
DNR = deals with dams will get them out this way and check the dam out.

US army corps of engineers = i need to get a hold of, see if i can get someone out here.
--a bit mind numb. reading a good portion of the guides they have on there website.

PEORIA COUNTY SWCD (Soil and Water Conservation District) part of agricultural department, person in charge of issues related to me and like is out planting and will be contacting me later on this week.

have third party excavation company coming out today hopefully for a quote to get things done. maybe jumping gun to get a bid. but i need to start some place.

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went over to other road were neighbor primary enterence is. and it looks like all water for their field is darn near all draining towards me through the single larger drain tile.

i took some video using a smaller container that i could actually fit under drain tile on my property. as how quickly it fills up. need to get a digital scale, and crank on VLC settings to display mili seconds. to start getting numbers of GPM coming out of drain tile.

re took some measurements for shore/bank of lake were dock attaches. looking at around 125 feet of shore/bank, were primary fishing dock, looking at lake from picnic area and cabin is visable. most likely will be pressing for a retaining wall to be put in. for that entire length.

the bridge. looking more at it. it is going to need 2 posts per end, and then a platform or 2 per each end (large wide steps). to be installed. to deal with hill sides that the shore/bank has been eroded away.

with rest of the shore/bank of lake. i am going to have to wait for an engineer. and see what they say. i am just at a lost, of what will need to be done. as in rock being brought in. or retaining wall built clear around lake or what. any more erosion. and talking 1' to 3' feet straight down vertically shore line of dirt. the more it erodes the more height difference will happen due to hills.

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i am not really interested in trying to walk down into area were i want the sediment ponds installed. saw a coyote, large freaking raccoon, or stray dog. a few times now in that area. will be waiting for another person to be with me before venturing into the area. (ya me big chicken), and have seen what coyotes can do to cattle a few times before. no thanks.

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will see if pictures turned out, and upload more pictures latter on.

*back to work*

all very confusing - all I know is if someone came on my property for any reason without permission and built something my attorney would be in direct touch with them quickly

Boggen, while surface water liability issues vary from state to state, a general rule - subject to lots of exceptions and interpretations of state specific laws from state supreme court to state supreme court - regarding redirection of surface water is that there may be liability for diverting water onto neighboring land.

Your neighbor's act of installing tile on your property is a pretty brazen act that may, at a minimum, amount to civil trespass if not criminal trespass in addition to providing a basis for you to assert a civil claim in the appropriate court in your jurisdiction.

If you don't already have an attorney lined up, let me know via PM here. I am pretty well connected with attorneys in every state via a couple of national organizations in which I am a member. I'd be happy to make some inquiries for you if you need the assistance.

Todd

one thing to cross off list. went to court house yesterday and went back through all the deeds and surveys to verify that there was no such easements or like and there is none for neighbors property.

the only easement that came about was a county road being built some time in the 1950's or 1960's and that road is on opposite side of property than of neighbors property.

Off point, but curious. I often read and hear of someone claiming "my attorney will etc,etc". Do you guys have attorneys? I have a doctor, a dentist, an automotive mechanic, even a contractor, but no attorney. I've personally or directly utilized their services twice in my lifetime that I can recall, so was just wondering if other people spent enough time with an attorney that they "had one"? As I said, just curious.

My situation is obviously a bit different since that's what I do for a living, but I know a lot of folks that do have an attorney on retainer in connection with their businesses and, typically, it's for purposes related to those businesses. However, the attorney inevitably fields a lot of other, unrelated questions when other things come up.

I'd say the more common scenario is that someone used an attorney once for something and figures they are their attorney for life. I have a lot of those folks. I'm usually happy to offer a quick thought or point them to someone who practices in the area of law they need if it's not something I do. While I don't take retainers for being "their attorney", if I can give someone a little peace of mind, why not? Besides, those people make referrals to me when someone they know does need representation so it works out well for both of us.

Todd

One other point, boggen - you need to be very cautious about what you say, post, or otherwise share about your situation outside of an eventual attorney-client relationship. There is no legal confidentiality in anything communicated outside of that relationship, meaning anything you say, post, or otherwise communicate can be brought into the litigation process and potentially used against your position in the case. Seeking advice on pond management is great, but just be cautious about the sort of information you choose to share.

Gotcha. Thanks Todd, was wondering about that.

Happy to oblige! At least I can say I've helped one person today if nothing else goes well!

secchi disk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2M4McUmU1s

is there a specific diameter, or reflective surface that is needed for DIY? spending $40 to $100 bucks seems a bit expensive. for what is a piece of plastic that is painted black/white, and some weight added to it, and a string attached.

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i no longer have a koi/goldfish pond or aquariums. so in that no longer have any test kits. and at moment being a big dumb dumb of what tests i need.

any suggestions for test kits?

any suggestions for water samples that i could take to a lab? as in what specific things to get lake water tested for?

ones that come off top of my head are.
nitrite
nitrate
ammonia
phosphorus
dissolved oxygen
ph

IF there is corn planted test for atrazine. It is highly water soluble and will flow with water. Blue gill will not breed if just a little is present.

I expect to see high levels of phosphorus and nitrates with a low PH of 6-6.5

boggen, I use the top of a 5 gallon paint bucket; no paint. Drill a small hole in the middle; insert a cord and attach a weight.