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#472509 - 05/22/17 09:39 PM Managing Desirable Vegetation
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5588
Loc: Boone County Illinois
I thought I would start this thread to help folks like me that have desirable vegetation they would like to manage. By manage I mean control the area the vegetation occupies and use it to the best advantage as a pond management tool. Anybody that has a question along this line please feel free to post it on this thread.

To start things off, my first question is how to manage American Pond Weed. I have some that I really like but I also don't want it taking over the pond. Besides mechanical removal...is there a contact herbicide that I can use to spot treat areas without wiping out the entire patch? Would spraying select floating leaves on the perimeter of the patch with a pond safe glyphosate like AquaNeat be ok? What's the best way to move some to another area of the pond?


Edited by Bill D. (05/22/17 09:54 PM)
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#472511 - 05/22/17 09:55 PM Re: Managing Desirable Vegetation [Re: Bill D.]
Instar Offline


Registered: 01/28/11
Posts: 201
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
Pond safe glyphosate? That is contradiction of terms. Study after study has shown that gyphosate is toxic to aquatic organisms.

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#472514 - 05/22/17 10:31 PM Re: Managing Desirable Vegetation [Re: Bill D.]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5588
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Thanks for the input Instar! I thought products like Shore-Klear, Rodeo, etc. were approved for floating, shoreline and emergent vegetation pond use. So what is a safe herbicide to spot treat American Pond Weed if the glyphosate based products are not?


Edited by Bill D. (05/22/17 10:33 PM)
Edit Reason: Typo
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#472515 - 05/22/17 11:00 PM Re: Managing Desirable Vegetation [Re: Instar]
Kelly Duffie Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 1477
Loc: Cypress, TX (Helena A-E LLC))
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
my first question is how to manage American Pond Weed. I have some that I really like but I also don't want it taking over the pond. Besides mechanical removal...is there a contact herbicide that I can use to spot treat areas without wiping out the entire patch? Would spraying select floating leaves on the perimeter of the patch with a pond safe glyphosate like AquaNeat be ok? What's the best way to move some to another area of the pond?
In my experiences, glyphosate is largely if not entirely ineffective for controlling APW. You're probably better off to apply a topical application of AQUATHOL K to targeted areas of APW, although a productive treatment may also mean some collateral damage to other nearby susceptible vegetation. Attempting this approach will greatly depend upon calm surface-conditions, to limit lateral migration of any product that lands in the water.
============================
Originally Posted By: Instar
Pond safe glyphosate? That is contradiction of terms. Study after study has shown that gyphosate is toxic to aquatic organisms.

INSTAR: Please cite such studies; preferably only peer-reviewed and journal-published studies since they tend to lack ulterior motives.
Thanks!

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#472516 - 05/22/17 11:18 PM Re: Managing Desirable Vegetation [Re: Bill D.]
anthropic Offline


Registered: 05/03/14
Posts: 1347
Loc: Louisiana, USA
Good article about desirable aquatic vegetation on page 34 of May/June 2017 PB Magazine. They specifically mention American Pondweed and pickerelweed, which I think were recently planted in my (otherwise barren) pond. Also water willows (not the willow tree) were discussed, which I hadn't heard about.

Hopefully the duck potato will also prove beneficial in my puddle.

By the way, I've seen what non-native plants can do: A favorite fishing hole was nearly ruined by water hyacinths. Very pretty, and actually beneficial when they covered maybe 5 to 10 percent of the BOW. After fertilization, though, they went crazy and made it virtually unfishable.


Edited by anthropic (05/22/17 11:18 PM)
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7 acre pond in east Texas, full pool reached March 2016. CNBG, RES, FHM stocked Nov 15; TP May 16; LSL bass 30 June 16. Added 100 12 inch N LMB and 1,000 shiners Oct 17, 150# TP and 70 HSB May 18




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#472518 - 05/23/17 06:03 AM Re: Managing Desirable Vegetation [Re: Kelly Duffie]
RAH Online   content
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4211
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
Thank you Kelly - It is amazing how effective "alternative news" is at reproducing itself. Its like rabbits!

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#472545 - 05/23/17 10:10 AM Re: Managing Desirable Vegetation [Re: Bill D.]
highflyer Offline


Registered: 07/09/11
Posts: 1863
Loc: East Texas
Kelly,
Is APW easy to mechanically control? I really don't want to use chemicals if possible. If I do need to use chemicals, how long does Aqathol K remain?


Edited by highflyer (05/23/17 10:11 AM)
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Brian

The one thing is the one thing
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#472568 - 05/23/17 07:22 PM Re: Managing Desirable Vegetation [Re: Bill D.]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5588
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Thanks Kelly!

I have a valued water lily right next to the APW. Looks like I will need to try to control mechanically like Brian. Any tips on mechanical removal?
_________________________

You'll never know what ya can catch unless you wet a line!

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#472569 - 05/23/17 07:32 PM Re: Managing Desirable Vegetation [Re: highflyer]
Kelly Duffie Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 1477
Loc: Cypress, TX (Helena A-E LLC))
Originally Posted By: highflyer
Kelly,
Is APW easy to mechanically control? I really don't want to use chemicals if possible. If I do need to use chemicals, how long does Aquathol K remain?
"Easy" is a relative term, so I'm not quite sure how to answer your question. Sure, it can be mechanically "managed" (vs controlled), but doing so probably doesn't fall under my definition of "easy".
The half-life of Aquathol (endothall) varies with environmental conditions; namely water-temperature and its influence on microbial activity, since microbial-decomposition is primarily responsible for endothall's environmental fate. In other words, endothall's half-life is extended in cooler water conditions, but water-temps must be warm enough for plant-uptake to occur; so optimum performance hinges on the Goldilocks clause (neither too hot nor too cold).
Bottom line; if you can't accept or tolerate some degree of collateral damage to adjacent susceptible plant species, it's probably best to stick with mechanical management methods.

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#472571 - 05/23/17 08:23 PM Re: Managing Desirable Vegetation [Re: Kelly Duffie]
Zep Offline
Hall of Fame 2014


Registered: 07/27/10
Posts: 3083
Loc: Dallas & Wills Point, Tx
Kelly how well does this product work?....it appears very pricey:

SePRO Sonar ONE® 5 lb Pail - pond & lake weed control
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Fishing has never been about the fish....


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#472574 - 05/23/17 09:22 PM Re: Managing Desirable Vegetation [Re: Zep]
Kelly Duffie Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 1477
Loc: Cypress, TX (Helena A-E LLC))
Zep: Sonar (Avast!, Fluridone, Whitecap, etc) is a very cost-effective treatment under the right circumstances, AND if "selectivity" or "localized impact" are NOT high on the user's agenda. Fluridone is a relatively broad-spectrum chemistry, but is generally suitable only for ponds and lakes that have very little if any flow-through (transient water).

Regardless of which herbicide-options you're comparing, never assess their "cost" by comparing their pricing per pound or gallon. To do so would be equivalent to comparing the cost of a .22 to a 30-06 simply because they're both firearms. The true expense of any herbicide treatment should be compared to other treatment-options based on the cost per month of "control" that each option offers.

Example: A treatments with Product A might cost $100 per acre, but yield only 2 months of control; while a treatment with Product B may cost $200 per acre, but it provides 8 months of control. So, which is more cost-effective treatment? In this example, Product A is twice the cost of Product B over an 8-month season, even though it is half the cost-per-acre per treatment.

That said, fluridone is one of the most cost-effective treatments available for many nuisance aquatic weed species - with the following caveats. 1) The treated pond isn't used for irrigation. 2) The pond doesn't experience much or any water-transition for 60+ days (<my opinion). 3) The user's objective entails removing most or possibly all of the pond's aquatic vegetation (<depending on the plant species that are present and their relative susceptibility to fluridone).

Lastly, be aware that multiple formulations of fluridone exist; liquids, pellets and granules. These formulations (especially the liquids) may vary dramatically in their concentrations of active-ingredient (a.i).

Example: 1 gallon of a 4-lb a.i. formulation contains the same amount of active-ingredient as is found in 8 gallons of a 1/2 lb a.i. formulation. There are additional formulation-factors to consider besides simply the product's % or wt of active-ingredient, but that's a long story. Similarly, fluridone pellets and granules are generally comprised of 5% a.i. formulations, but they also have unique formulation characteristics and a.i. release-rates that might make one formulation more suitable than another for a particular circumstance.

I hope this somewhat answers your question, rather than further confusing you. Needless to say, it's a bit more complicated than simply looking at a product's price-tag.

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#472578 - 05/23/17 10:34 PM Re: Managing Desirable Vegetation [Re: Kelly Duffie]
Zep Offline
Hall of Fame 2014


Registered: 07/27/10
Posts: 3083
Loc: Dallas & Wills Point, Tx
Yes Kelly that really helps...I may have to read it again...but I see where you are going...thanks for the explanation.
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#472748 - 05/27/17 10:06 PM Re: Managing Desirable Vegetation [Re: Bill D.]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5588
Loc: Boone County Illinois
I am not sure whether I have Potamogeton foliosus (Leafy Pondweed) or Potamogeton pusillus (Slender Pondweed) but I'm starting to get a whole bunch of one of them. It is definitely the dominant vegetation in the pond. Would it be OK to stock 1 GC in my .35 to .75 acre this fall to help manage it? I can't stock sooner as I can't get a GC from Keystone until fall. My concern is I don't want the GC to wipe out the duck potato, hardy lilies, pickerelweed, creeping rush, hardstem bull rush, red tip eel grass, etc.

It grows in "bush" type clumps. I don't want to wipe this stuff out as it seems to be awesome habitat for small critters but I would like to "manage" it. My thought was that, since it is by far the most abundant vegetation in the pond, the GC will focus more on it than the others. Question is do GC like this stuff? I know I could mechanically remove a lot of it but my body ain't what it used to be!


Edited by Bill D. (05/27/17 10:16 PM)
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You'll never know what ya can catch unless you wet a line!

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#472751 - 05/28/17 06:12 AM Re: Managing Desirable Vegetation [Re: Bill D.]
RAH Online   content
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4211
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
How much surface area is occupied by the undesirable pondweed vegetation?

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#472777 - 05/28/17 02:30 PM Re: Managing Desirable Vegetation [Re: RAH]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5588
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Originally Posted By: RAH
How much surface area is occupied by the undesirable pondweed vegetation?


It first put in an appearance (that I noticed) last spring. By late summer it probably occupied 5% at low pool. It seems to spread quickly. One concern is it dies out during the winter and I worry it might cause winter DO issues in a few years with all the decaying vegetation.
_________________________

You'll never know what ya can catch unless you wet a line!

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#472820 - 05/29/17 07:09 AM Re: Managing Desirable Vegetation [Re: Bill D.]
RAH Online   content
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 4211
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
If your pond is 1/2 acre and 5% occupied by the pondweed then that is about a 33' square of surface area. One GC may be too much for so little food and after cleaning this up might start taking out desirable plants. This is just a guess on my part.


Edited by RAH (05/29/17 07:09 AM)

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#472851 - 05/29/17 03:01 PM Re: Managing Desirable Vegetation [Re: Bill D.]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5588
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Thanks for the reply RAH. I agree and I wouldn't want to get rid of it anyway as long as it stays in 5%. My concern is that it covered 5% in one summer. I guess time will tell. I will wait and see how much it spreads this summer and then determine course of action.
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