Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Shotgun01, Dan H, Stipker, LunkerHunt23, Jeanjules
18,451 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,899
Posts557,067
Members18,451
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,410
ewest 21,474
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,110
Who's Online Now
18 members (esshup, bstone261, jpsdad, Bing, e_stallman, FishinRod, Justin W, Augie, emactxag, Ron crismon, Dave Davidson1, Saratznj, Donatello, Layne, Freg, Sunil, tws3, rjackson), 691 guests, and 169 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 477
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 477
Quote:
I'm not familiar with what normal poundage of fish would be considered optimal. The RES were the majority of the fish biomass. Were any of the fish harvested over all those years, or just left to their own devices? Do you have any idea, based on what the study tells you, of why the growth was slow? Over population perhaps, or lack of food?

1. Normal poundage of fish per acre in a pond/lake is highly variable and dependent on fertility of the water. The common range of total pounds /ac is somewhere around 100-400 lbs/ac.
2. One pond (Pond3) had an estimated annual harvest of 120/ lb/ac in the year prior to the study since this pond had a low RES biomass of the strong 6 yr old year class that was present in the other three ponds. No angler harvest was mentioned for the other three ponds. For the study some fish were fin clipped for a mortality study and ponds were censused with sodium cyanide at the end of the study.
3. Below average growth was noted for the RES. Best growth of redear was in ponds with fewest redear, low reproductive success of RES, and the most bass. Severity of winter conditions was responsible for significant mortality of RES each year. Annual mortality ranged from 33% to 68% (ave 55%). Winter mortality was considered significant regardless of RES density and was estimated to be 30-32%. The article proposed a couple production models based on the data collected.

I suspect slow growth if the RES in these ponds as with most slower growing fish was due too many individuals over eating the available food source. This is a very common problem in most ponds. The author did mention that the ponds were at estimated carrying capacity in terms of total fish poundage.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/17/14 09:21 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
S
snrub Offline OP
OP Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
Very interesting. Thanks.

Really high mortality from winter kill. Maybe related to how small the ponds were? Couldn't find deep enough/warm enough water? Hope I do not have that high of mortality rate this winter.

In the studies that ewest has linked to several times (last post on previous page of this thread) of what various sunfish eat it is interesting to note how few actual fish had been eaten as part of the diet. The vast majority of the sunfish diet from what was found in the gut was anything other than fish.

This begs a couple more questions.
If the sunfish are not eating other sunfish fry, what is? (LMB obviously, but I would think that BG, etc. would be eating quite a few of the small fish fry, but not according to that study).
And the second question, is it possible for the sunfish to actually be eating a lot of tiny fish fry (and eggs) that were too small or digested too quickly for the researchers to count? I've never cut open a fish yet to see what it has eaten, so these questions may have common knowledge answers that I'm unaware of.


Last edited by snrub; 11/17/14 11:12 PM.

John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Severity of winter conditions was responsible for significant mortality of RES each year. Annual mortality ranged from 33% to 68% (ave 55%). Winter mortality was considered significant regardless of RES density and was estimated to be 30-32%. The article proposed a couple production models based on the data collected.


That is a pretty significant mortality rate over the winter.



Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
S
snrub Offline OP
OP Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
That is what I thought Shorty.

Found a floater RES in my sediment pond. The good news is it was 3.5" and they were stocked at 1-2", so they are growing. The bad news this one was dead. Other than being dead, it looked ok. First one I have found dead out of the 175 stocked.

Last edited by snrub; 11/22/14 11:35 AM.

John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 477
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 477
Guys - The high winter mortality rate for the RES study was done in central Missouri, which is also surprising since it is not located very far north. The author seined and fin clipped RES in spring and fall to determine mortality rates. RES smaller than 3.9" RES not doubt part of the mortality study. The next spring ponds were censused of all fish. Remember the original stocking of RES was done in the late 1940's early 1950's. The study was done in 1971-72.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/22/14 11:55 AM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
I have only one found one dead adult RES from my original stocking in the last 3 years. Every spring at ice I have found no more than a dozen 3" or smaller RES around the pond. I wonder if the RES in the original study were brought up from Arkansas, the winter mortality rate seems pretty high.



Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
Bill, the small number of RES fingerling I got off the fish truck I (assume were a southern strain) seemed to be susceptible to fungal infections with water temps in the upper 50's in my RAS tank.



Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 477
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 477
The study noted the annual mortality (33-68%) was highest in ponds with the greatest RES density. Winter mortality was 30%-32% and considered significant regardless of density. Summer or growing season mortality ranged from 3% in pond 1 to 36% in pond 4 and mortality was highest for the greatest RES density. To me this suggests lack of food might have contributed to the higher RES growing season mortality (pond4). Lack of food due to competition and less fat going into winter may also contribute to winter mortality.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/22/14 12:08 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
That makes sense.



Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
S
snrub Offline OP
OP Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
[quote]

I suspect slow growth if the RES in these ponds as with most slower growing fish was due too many individuals over eating the available food source. This is a very common problem in most ponds. The author did mention that the ponds were at estimated carrying capacity in terms of total fish poundage.


Sounds like from a management standpoint, the ponds needed some heavy angling pressure and/or seining to remove some of the biomass to let remaining fish be more prosperous.


John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 477
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 477
We are coming back full circle to what I mentioned in my post on the first page.
Quote:
“I think I am the one mainly responsible for the posts of "that RES eat primarily snails and that lack of enough or proper forage will limit the number of RES a pond can support." As snrub continues he says "adults will feed on a variety of food organisms, depending on what is abundant and what is vulnerable. Common food items are midge larvae, snails, mayfly larvae and dragonfly/damselfly larvae."”

When competition from other RES is high and/or from other fish for alternative foods, then RES are likely to suffer high mortalities in winter due to lack of fat reserves and cold temperature conditions. IMO lower RES numbers allow remaining individuals to graze the natural snail production of that water body. Getting RES to eat pellets may help lower their mortality rates.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/22/14 02:36 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
S
snrub Offline OP
OP Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
We are coming back full circle to what I mentioned in my post on the first page.


I'm a slow learner Bill! grin

Even after I've learned, then I forget it and have to relearn it again. crazy

Been doing some searching after reading Shorty's post in another thread. One of the things I came up with was a discussion where some guys were talking about certain ponds having mostly RES and RBS. Large numbers of good size fish and very few BG. Just makes me wonder what conditions were in those particular ponds that made them such good RES ponds and where the BG had not become the predominant species.


John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 477
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 477
Quote:
I came up with was a discussion where some guys were talking about certain ponds having mostly RES and RBS. Large numbers of good size fish and very few BG. Just makes me wonder what conditions were in those particular ponds that made them such good RES ponds and where the BG had not become the predominant species.


Very good question that lends itself for further detailed study. Results would be very informative.


aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
When you count in all the yoy that die 30 % mortality is not that high. As noted lots of yoy and even adult fish die from poor food supply.

Cody note - when we consider that the RES do not produce very many eggs and fry compared to BG production then 30% is a pretty large part of the total annual numbers of the RES produced. If there is a poor spawn maybe due to weather or nest egg/fry predation then the YOY production is even less. Then when we add in the winter mortality of 10-30% it is now more understandable why RES seem to be scarce to rare in ponds where they are stocked. If RES are an important panfish in your pond's fishery, then periodic or annual supplemental stocking should be seriously considered. Then to help improve survival of stocked RES, one should reduce the RES competition for food by at least removing as many BG as RES that are stocked. For example: if you stock 100 RES then remove 100-150 similar sized BG. This gives the newly stocked RES a better chance to get enough food for survival and hopefully start growing in their new habitat. Restocking fish is stressful in itself so giving them an added benefit is only wise fish management.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/24/14 02:18 PM. Reason: Added information note















Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
EFish -- http://web1.cnre.vt.edu/efish/families/centrarchidae.html

RES -- Fecundity is 15,001-30,144 eggs per female per year


BG -- Fecundity is about 80,000 eggs per female per year


I have seen different numbers than these but they are about average.
















Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
S
snrub Offline OP
OP Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
Add to that most ponds being stocked only get 5 to 20% RES in relation to BG and it is easy to see why the angling catch rate is relatively low.


John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
S
snrub Offline OP
OP Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
Originally Posted By: snrub
[quote=Bill Cody]I think I am the one mainly responsible for the posts of "that RES eat primarily snails and that lack of enough or proper forage will limit the number of RES a pond can support."


Yes, but I was not going to call you out Bill. grin

[quote=Bill Cody] As snrub continues he says "adults will feed on a variety of food organisms, depending on what is abundant and what is vulnerable. Common food items are midge larvae, snails, mayfly larvae and dragonfly/damselfly larvae." [quote]

That was actually from the article, not me.
Cody note: a link to the article is in a post below.

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
RES by themselves as a primary panfish with lack of other sunfish competition in a pond can no doubt result in sizable pounds of RES produced each season. [quote]

That is what I was hoping to hear! I would like to know if it is possible to focus on RES and in doing so make them thrive, not just be an "also ran" fish. In all the stocking recommendations I have seen, RES are only a fractional portion of the stocking and usually for snail control. I've never heard a stocking plan where RES are emphasized as one of the main fish. BG, yes. LMB, yes, SMB, yes. YP, yes. RES, no.

It appears less is known about the RES than most of the other fish.

I currently have a 1/20th acre pond with only RES and loads of FHM. I hope they do well and reproduce. We will see. Also have a 1/10th acre pond that has FHM and stocked 175 RES along with 100 CNBG. How will the RES do when they are the primary fish and the CNBG have to play catch up? Will the RES do better than they otherwise would where they start out with less competition? (I realize the CNBG will eventually get ahead of them spawn wise).

What I'm really trying to find out is if emphasis can be put on RES and do any good towards making them thrive? Or am I just wasting my time and doomed to failure?

It appears, based on what types of lures the RES have been hitting, their diet either varies a lot and will try to feed on numerous foods, or they just have a bad attitude and bite at whatever irritates them.

Bill, you are one of the last guys on this forum I would dare to disagree with. And I'm not trying to do that now. It is just that your comments in the past have led me to believe efforts to improve RES fishery might not be successful and they may always be relegated to a novelty fish. Yet there seems to be some limited evidence that there might be room to manage specifically for RES. I'm just trying to explore what evidence I can find.





This is such a good thread I wanted to update it. I have built an approximate one acre pond that will be dedicated to RES production. Here is the thread I started on it.

A pond dedicated to RES

I just stocked 5 4-6" RES and 5 3" RES I caught from my forage pond about a month ago. I will order a couple hundred fingerling RES and a few pounds of FHM from Dunn's in early June when their truck is scheduled to be in the area for stocking this pond. Will also add a few more larger RES if I can catch them out of my other ponds.

Then hopefully a year or two from now will have more information about a RES only pond. If I can keep the GSF out. smirk

Last edited by snrub; 05/21/17 12:31 PM.

John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 477
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 477
RES are likely opportunistic feeders rather than starve. They could eat whatever is most abundant. The more competition the RES have the more they are forced to get less food. If snails are abundant, few other fish are well adapted to eat snails and small clams, thus the RES can thrive in mixed fish habitats that have a lot of snails (mollusks). I suspect RES will eat fish fry and insect larvae when those things are abundant, but so do a lot of other sunfish eat fish fry and insect larvae thus there is a feeding competition which could crowd out the RES.


aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
S
snrub Offline OP
OP Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 93
I have already inoculated the pond with snails a couple of times with water and some water primrose that was loaded with them out of my sediment pond. Fertilized the pond a little and it was limed last fall. Have been away and not seen it for a couple weeks but in a week will see if I need to add a little more fertilizer. I hope I do not need to as the pond gets its water from ag land runoff. Will see if there is a nice bloom.

Want to make sure there is enough to eat when I stock the fingerlings. The FHM and their offspring will be forage for the RES.

Last edited by snrub; 05/21/17 08:53 PM.

John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
Bob Lusk, GaryK, GrizzFan, PhotographerDave
Recent Posts
Brooder Shiners and Fry, What to do??
by jpsdad - 03/28/24 08:37 AM
Relative weight charts in Excel ? Calculations?
by esshup - 03/28/24 08:36 AM
Happy Birthday Bob Lusk!!
by FishinRod - 03/28/24 08:22 AM
Dewatering bags seeded to form berms?
by Justin W - 03/28/24 08:19 AM
Reducing fish biomass
by FishinRod - 03/28/24 08:18 AM
New 2 acre pond stocking plan
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:05 PM
1 year after stocking question
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:02 PM
Questions and Feedback on SMB
by Donatello - 03/27/24 03:10 PM
Paper-shell crayfish and Japanese snails
by Bill Cody - 03/27/24 10:18 AM
2024 North Texas Optimal BG food Group Buy
by Dave Davidson1 - 03/27/24 08:15 AM
Freeze Danger? - Electric Diaphragm Pump
by esshup - 03/26/24 09:47 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5