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#447647 - 05/19/16 02:11 PM Re: Anything positive about filamentous algae? [Re: snrub]
canyoncreek Online   content


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1582
Loc: West Michigan
snrub, do you mind shooting a picture of your pond with the black dye in it at concentrations that you find pretty ideal? (point where you feel you don't have to add any more in to get the desired color)

I'm curious how dark the water has to be to get the desired effect. A close up may not be that helpful, I'm thinking more a shot from 100-200' away to get the whole idea of the color.

Only if you have time...

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#447657 - 05/19/16 03:44 PM Re: Anything positive about filamentous algae? [Re: canyoncreek]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4228
Loc: SE Kansas
Funny you should ask. A few days after adding the black dye back March 19 I took a series of photos specifically for the benefit of PBF members to see the effects. As happens all too often, I got lazy and never did anything with the photos on my phone.

Thanks to you, I now have the needed "push" to do something with them so they are now downloaded and are posted below. The first picture listed is of the main pond with the dye and the second picture is taken at the same time of day and angle of my adjacent sediment pond to get a comparison of dye vs. no dye. At times the water in my sediment pond looks drastically different than the main pond but at this particular time we had not had much rain so the waters were similar when the dye was added. The rest of the pictures are taken at different angles to show how "different" the pond can look depending on the angle of the shot and time of day taken.

All pictures were taken March 19 except for the last two. It was kind of overcast on the 19th and sunny the next day. Pictures labeled Black dye 3 and 4 were taken the next day one right after the other. One is of the right side of the dock and the other is of the left side both at 12:45 pm. I took these two just to show how the same water at the same time can look different simply because of the angle looking at the water. Pictures were pointing NW and SW. Notice the other picture taken off the dock the day before the water looks very much different because of sun/time of day.

In my opinion, for the most part, the black dye doesn't really make the pond look "black". Too little dye in too much water to do that. What it does is give it a slightly darker color but much more of a reflective "mirror" type surface rather than actually changing the overall color that much.

Hope this helps. My wife and I love the turquoise blue water of the Caribbean when we go scuba diving there. But somehow we neither one liked the similar color the blue dyes sometimes gives ponds. For our local setting and surrounding landscape it did not seem the right contrast for our taste. Thus the reason we decided to try the black dye which is much less popular than the blue.

So far so good. We like it ok.


Attachments
IMGA1641 Main pond with black dye.JPG (481 downloads)
Description: Main 3 acre pond with black dye

IMGA1640 Sediment pond with no dye.JPG (403 downloads)
Description: Sediment pond with no dye right next to main pond

IMGA1638 Black pond dye 1.JPG (409 downloads)
Description: Shows reflective surface well

IMGA1639.JPG (312 downloads)
Description: off side of dock

IMGA1642 Black dye 2.JPG (329 downloads)
Description: another angle around the pond

IMGA1643 Black dye 3.JPG (325 downloads)
Description: looking NW to the right side of dock next day

IMGA1644 Black dye 4.JPG (343 downloads)
Description: looking SW to left side of dock next day




Edited by snrub (05/19/16 03:57 PM)
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#447696 - 05/20/16 03:38 AM Re: Anything positive about filamentous algae? [Re: snrub]
John Monroe Offline
Member

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 1092
Loc: East Central Indiana
Snub you started this thread saying FA was teaming with life. So that'a positive for FA. But we don't want it to cover our pond. I love the stuff and I only have it around the edge of my pond but when it hits the plants in my pond it stops dead in it's tracks. So many try to control it with chemicals or dye's which stops not only FA but much of the beneficial plants in a pond. I go with nature and not fight it.
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#447705 - 05/20/16 09:18 AM Re: Anything positive about filamentous algae? [Re: snrub]
canyoncreek Online   content


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1582
Loc: West Michigan
snrub,
Thanks, those pictures are worth a lot! Much easier to see than try to describe. I see how it isn't jet black or totally reflective but yet has a darker hue. I like it!

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#447716 - 05/20/16 12:14 PM Re: Anything positive about filamentous algae? [Re: John Monroe]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4228
Loc: SE Kansas
John I agree with you and hopefully I'm on my way to getting some desirable plants established. I have no desire for the expense or trouble of treating with Cutrine and/or dye every year. I'm hoping the current treatment only has to be done a year or two till I get things in more of a self regulated state.

To me the natural dye is a better partial solution than using larger amounts of Cutrine, both from an environmental and an economic view.

I also don't mind some of the FA around the edge. But I don't like where the pond is half covered with floating blobs that shift from side to side of the pond with the wind and make swimming and fishing very difficult or undesirable.

There is some water primrose starting naturally around the pond and some spike rush getting established. I think the addition of the sediment pond has also helped some with the nutrient load.

It is not that I don't like to use what nature provides when I can. It is just that sometimes nature has different desires and goals than I do for this particular spot on the planet. My garden is the same way. Were I to let it go "natural", it would mostly be weeds and grass. I prefer to eat vegetables.


Edited by snrub (05/20/16 12:20 PM)
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#447718 - 05/20/16 12:27 PM Re: Anything positive about filamentous algae? [Re: canyoncreek]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4228
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: canyoncreek
snrub,
Thanks, those pictures are worth a lot! Much easier to see than try to describe. I see how it isn't jet black or totally reflective but yet has a darker hue. I like it!


On the cloudy day or viewed at a low angle, it can almost look black at times but so can natural water without the dye. That is why I showed the last two pictures where the view was on a sunny day looking more directly down into the water. The dye just replaces what would preferably be an algae bloom.

I much prefer to have an algae bloom rather than using the dye. Something I have not done but should is take a water sample. I may very well have excess phosphorus and not enough nitrogen at times. I might could add a slight amount of nitrogen to get the bloom. I just hate to go that route adding even more nutrients when I know I have an excess to begin with. Plus adding five or six pounds of fish food per day (about 2-3# per acre)for 2/3 of the year adding more nutrients.

The dye was an experiment based on some other posts here on PBF having success with it. So far I am happy with results. Never ever thought I would ever be using pond dye. smile


Edited by snrub (05/20/16 12:28 PM)
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#448250 - 05/27/16 01:13 AM Re: Anything positive about filamentous algae? [Re: snrub]
esshup Online   content
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The trick to controlling FA is to get ahead of the curve. If you wait until it breaks free from the bottom and is floating, you are already behind the curve and have to play catch-up.
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#450367 - 06/23/16 12:20 AM Re: Anything positive about filamentous algae? [Re: snrub]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4228
Loc: SE Kansas
An update to this thread on using black pond dye to control the FA. It appears to have worked and I have added no more dye for the last month. As water temperature got warmer a natural algae bloom seemed to take the place of the dye so I have had no need to add any more.

At least so far this year, as Esshup pointed out, getting ahead of it early before it became a big problem the very limited amount of Cutrine at the very beginning and the dye to keep it from coming back seemed to work till I got the desired algae bloom. Of course every year may be a little different so will try about this same procedure next year to see if it is actually a workable plan or I just got lucky with the year.

Right now I don't see any FA at all. Maybe the variety I have is a cool weather type because the hot weather/warm water seems to have knocked it out. Went snorkeling the other day and the bottom was bare. Last year green fuzz six inches deep everywhere light penetrated. But I only had about two feet advisability because of the algae bloom so the snorkeling sucked. All I got to see was small BG that would come up to my face when I held still for a couple minutes. Would feel larger fish brush up against my legs but never come up front where I could see them.

The dye seemed to work for me early but I no longer need it.


Edited by snrub (06/23/16 12:22 AM)
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#452311 - 07/20/16 01:35 AM Re: Anything positive about filamentous algae? [Re: snrub]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4228
Loc: SE Kansas
And yet another update. We had large multiple rain events and HUGE flow through a week or two ago. So I suspect most of the dye is gone due to both normal degradation as well as dilution.

Been noticing a week ago a little FA around the edges of the pond and out a few feet on the bottom. Today I have some floating out to a couple feet from the bank. I do not mind that. We do not keep this pond like an urban showcase property and I actually like a little FA around the edges for the critters and small fish refuge.

But I can see this is starting to take hold and possibly become a problem. So I added a couple more quarts of black dye today (supposedly a quart of this dye is equal to a gallon of ordinary pond dye - who knows if it is sales hype or the truth). That is on three acres with recommended rate of 1-2 quarts per acre. Will monitor it for a week and see if the FA stays at current levels or if it gets worse. If it gets worse may have to use a small amount of Cutrine liquid around the edges. Will wait and see.

I have some concern if I kill off all the FA the nutrient load will cause blue green algae to replace it. We had a problem with Blue green algae last year. But last year water levels were low with little flow through. I would think nutrient levels should be much lower this year do to the dilution effect. We will see what happens.

I have been very happy with the water quality so far this year. Hope it stays that way through the dog days of July/August.


Edited by snrub (07/20/16 01:40 AM)
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#452826 - 07/25/16 10:02 PM Re: Anything positive about filamentous algae? [Re: snrub]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4228
Loc: SE Kansas
Decided to add the last two quarts I have on hand of black dye today. Thought I should document in case someone else wants to try dye to control FA. FA still mostly around edges but seeing just a little floating out in some other shallow water. With the two quarts I added earlier, it is getting in mid range of the recommended amount. The big rains had pretty well washed out what was left of the earlier spring application. Will wait about a month and report back here if control was maintained or no. Decided not to use any Cutrine and just see what develops for the rest of the season. Had another inch of rain today and brought the pond back to within a half inch of full pool, so the water depth and quality has been a lot better overall this year than last. That may have as much to do with the FA behaving better this year as the dye and Cutrine.

If anyone is interested the black dye I am using is made by Rain Biologics. You can do a search if more information is desired.


Edited by snrub (07/25/16 10:05 PM)
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#461588 - 01/07/17 08:38 AM Re: Anything positive about filamentous algae? [Re: snrub]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4228
Loc: SE Kansas
I forgot to come back and make the final report for the year. The last two quarts I put in seemed to keep the FA to tolerable levels. I am satisfied with the control achieved and will try it again next year.

One concern I have is that in surpressing the FA there seems to be more problems with bluegreen algae outbreaks. I guess that gets back to the message heard multiple times here on the forum. Nature is going to find some organism to take advantage of excess nutrients. Surpress the FA and something else is going to come along.

My longer term goal is to have some rooted plants take care of the nutrient problem. That and my sediment pond helps slow the flow of nutrients into the main pond.

This thread reminds me, I need to get some dye ordered early to have it on hand. Last year with a warm March thr FA was already going good.


Edited by snrub (01/07/17 08:40 AM)
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#461592 - 01/07/17 12:07 PM Re: Anything positive about filamentous algae? [Re: snrub]
Bill Cody Online   content
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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 11989
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Snrub - Good report. What brand of black dye do you use? Do you see black as having benefits compared to blue? My understanding is most black is made with blue, yellow, and red.


Edited by Bill Cody (01/07/17 12:09 PM)
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#461593 - 01/07/17 12:09 PM Re: Anything positive about filamentous algae? [Re: snrub]
Bocomo Offline


Registered: 05/06/12
Posts: 1067
Loc: Boone County, MO (pond)
Originally Posted By: snrub
One concern I have is that in surpressing the FA there seems to be more problems with bluegreen algae outbreaks. I guess that gets back to the message heard multiple times here on the forum. Nature is going to find some organism to take advantage of excess nutrients. Surpress the FA and something else is going to come along.


Bill Cody, can you weigh in on this? I thought that BGA was a bigger problem when using copper products as some BGA are copper-resistant. It's my understanding that BGA are photosynthetic and would also be slowed down by pond dyes that block the wavelengths they need to make energy just like FA.
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#461596 - 01/07/17 01:17 PM Re: Anything positive about filamentous algae? [Re: snrub]
Bill Cody Online   content
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Registered: 04/18/02
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Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Bocomo - ""It's my understanding that BGA are photosynthetic and would also be slowed down by pond dyes that block the wavelengths they need to make energy just like FA.""
Algae and especially bluegreen algae (BGA) are not this simple. One cannot generalize and apply it to all BGA. This is a complex topic due mainly to there are so many species of algae - tens maybe hundreds of thousands. The smaller the organisms become the more species there are in that group. Not all algae including BGA are the same. We can't assume they all have the same requirements. Each species is unique and many if not most, are adapted to often a unique set of environmental variables; that is why they don't all bloom at once in the same conditions. Some algae are what we call generalists and can grow in a wide variety of conditions. Some algae species are indicator species and are very specific as to what they need to thrive. This is similar to fish. Carp are generalists and can grow in almost any water type, not true with say brook trout or other species sensitive fish called an indicator species. Invertebrate species are are similar in their wide range of environmental requirements that span all the species.

Yes some BGA are copper resistant although some other species belonging to other algal groups are also tolerant to various concentrations of copper. Some algae will thrive or bloom in higher concentrations of copper that kill all the others - they have adapted as tolerant or needing abnormal amounts of copper ions.

I am convinced bluegreen algae species are stimulated by various types of light wavelengths and intensities. The floating planktonic BGA usually prefer high intensity light. Bottom growing BGalgae often tolerate low light and some BGA I think can thrive on different wavelengths than green algae. Many algae in all groups can thrive in low light conditions. Beginning to see the 'rub'?

The BGA that Snrub is seeing in his black dyed pond could be thriving in the areas where the dye is less effective such as shallow water zones or on the surface. Or his BGS could be adapted to black dye better than a dye of another color.


Edited by Bill Cody (01/07/17 07:52 PM)
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#463020 - 01/31/17 09:50 PM Re: Anything positive about filamentous algae? [Re: Bill Cody]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4228
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Snrub - Good report. What brand of black dye do you use? Do you see black as having benefits compared to blue? My understanding is most black is made with blue, yellow, and red.


I thought I had replied to this but see I had not.

I started with Black Dyemond. Then when I needed more ordered from Rain Biologics. You can do a Google search and find both.

I saw no difference in the performance of the two.

I only used black because my wife and I did not think the blue turned the water color to a shade that went with our decor'. grin
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#471277 - 05/05/17 10:58 AM Re: Anything positive about filamentous algae? [Re: Bill Cody]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4228
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Bocomo - ""It's my understanding that BGA are photosynthetic and would also be slowed down by pond dyes that block the wavelengths they need to make energy just like FA.""
Algae and especially bluegreen algae (BGA) are not this simple. One cannot generalize and apply it to all BGA. This is a complex topic due mainly to there are so many species of algae - tens maybe hundreds of thousands. The smaller the organisms become the more species there are in that group. Not all algae including BGA are the same. We can't assume they all have the same requirements. Each species is unique and many if not most, are adapted to often a unique set of environmental variables; that is why they don't all bloom at once in the same conditions. Some algae are what we call generalists and can grow in a wide variety of conditions. Some algae species are indicator species and are very specific as to what they need to thrive. This is similar to fish. Carp are generalists and can grow in almost any water type, not true with say brook trout or other species sensitive fish called an indicator species. Invertebrate species are are similar in their wide range of environmental requirements that span all the species.

Yes some BGA are copper resistant although some other species belonging to other algal groups are also tolerant to various concentrations of copper. Some algae will thrive or bloom in higher concentrations of copper that kill all the others - they have adapted as tolerant or needing abnormal amounts of copper ions.

I am convinced bluegreen algae species are stimulated by various types of light wavelengths and intensities. The floating planktonic BGA usually prefer high intensity light. Bottom growing BGalgae often tolerate low light and some BGA I think can thrive on different wavelengths than green algae. Many algae in all groups can thrive in low light conditions. Beginning to see the 'rub'?

The BGA that Snrub is seeing in his black dyed pond could be thriving in the areas where the dye is less effective such as shallow water zones or on the surface. Or his BGS could be adapted to black dye better than a dye of another color.


Great explanation for us laymen Bill. An update on my algal situation of my main pond.

Early this spring I was getting some FA growing around the banks in shallow water that looked like it could become a nuisance. I had a little Cutrine granules left over from last year so treated the area from about 1-3' out from the bank. Did not put any granules right at the edge of the bank because I do not mind a little FA for the critters and fish larvae to use for cover as I have little bank vegetation yet. Ordered some more Cutrine Granules and black pond dye at that time (early March).

The Cutrine knocked it back and have done nothing since. Got a good planktonic algae bloom going and looked like I might not need the dye. Lots of water flow through with local flooding lately so that should cut the nutrient load down on the pond and I am crossing my fingers I am done with FA management for the year. We will see. I'll have the Cutrine granules and dye for next year.

Bob Lusk had chimed in on another thread about using dye that if you are going to use it for FA control do it early in the season, not later when the YOY larval fish need the phytoplankton to survive and the phytoplankton need an algae bloom to survive and thrive. I was glad to get that information as otherwise I might have used dye later in the season than I should.

An odd thing happened when I ordered my black dye from Rain Biologics. I kind of forgot about it and a couple months later wondered where my dye was. I emailed them saying I had never received it. They promptly emailed back and said they had screwed up a few orders and mine was one of them. They were going to ship my case of black dye out immediately and for my trouble at no cost also ship me a case of blue dye. I would have settled for an apology (mistakes happen) but they went beyond that and gave me a bunch of free product. I thought the company was trying very hard to keep pleased customers. I was impressed how they took care of it and without me pressing them or asking for any special favors.

With the free blue dye I may try mixing blue and black next spring should I feel the need to dye the pond. Ideally both cases will sit on a (non-freezing location) shelf and never be needed.


Edited by snrub (05/05/17 11:05 AM)
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#471284 - 05/05/17 01:04 PM Re: Anything positive about filamentous algae? [Re: snrub]
anthropic Offline


Registered: 05/03/14
Posts: 893
Loc: Louisiana, USA
My pond is less than two years old. It's too young to dye!
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#471291 - 05/05/17 03:03 PM Re: Anything positive about filamentous algae? [Re: anthropic]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4228
Loc: SE Kansas
grin grin grin

I thought the same thing. My pond was too young and should not have excess nutrients.

But I did line the pond with a thin layer of topsoil to have more clear water (less clay suspension) and that soil was pretty fertile. Plus I was feeding pretty heavy.

I am actually feeding less feed than I used to to try and not put so many nutrients in the pond.
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#471295 - 05/05/17 05:03 PM Re: Anything positive about filamentous algae? [Re: snrub]
Custom 68 Offline


Registered: 05/09/14
Posts: 109
Loc: Springfield MO area
speaking of topsoil part my shallow end was left as "dirt" as my pond was built. We worked the dam end with a core and money got tight as it took more effort and depth than originally planned we wanted this end right and left a portion to "backwater" if this did not hold then we would attach that later as long as the dam was good. That said maybe this is where my higher nutrients are coming from. I had not thought that to be an issue at the time.
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